thoughts and expieriences on chinese engines

[Chris-PA]

“Hollowing Out” in U.S. Manufacturing: Analysis and Issues for Congress http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41712.pdf

It's not regulations, it's energy.

Basically the US peaked in oil production (and per capita income) in the early 1970's. The industrial system of manufacturing and selling products no longer provides enough return on investment for those who own the companies given the ever higher cost of energy and the cost of servicing the ever higher debt. It doesn't work any more. Some have responded with efforts to replace US workers with more automation, many more have switched to much cheaper foreign workers to replace both automation and US workers.

Both of these are temporary measures. As the cost energy and debts continue to rise, and the availability of both decrease, the next step is not only no manufacturing jobs, but no products either.

Learn to fix what you have.

 

[jthornton]

It doesn't really matter where production goes, when a factory becomes noncompetitive in the global market place and the cost to produce an engine is more than the selling price they will shut down or move the factory some place else. That is what happened in Rolla Mo, the cost to produce the engine was more than the selling price. When it takes 4 months to install a simple machine on the production line something is really wrong. They did have a side line that produced a few 3.5hp horz shaft motors, I wonder if that is how the media claimed 50%... I don't have a clue where that production went but it was minor. Of course you believe everything you read on the internet and all news people tell it straight up without bending the facts to make them look good...

You can blame anything you want when your noncompetitive but when the WORLDS most efficient small engine plant is in America it makes you wonder why more factories can't do the same over here??? It's not easy getting that title and it is not one sided, it's all the people involved working to a common goal BE THE MOST EFFICIENT GLOBAL PRODUCER.

Now I'll shut up!

John

 

[Chris-PA]

How do you measure efficiency? The most output for the least labor thanks to automation? Is using machines better than using foreign workers?

 

[nt3041]

Honda Knock-off

this should get some tongues wagging. are they any good? do they last? starting ? all i know qabout em is they're half the price of a honda.

I have a 9 hp Hispec on my splitter for 3 years and love it. Starts easy, good on fuel........could not ask for better.

 

[Cerran]

“Hollowing Out” in U.S. Manufacturing: Analysis and Issues for Congress http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41712.pdf

It's not regulations, it's energy.

Basically the US peaked in oil production (and per capita income) in the early 1970's. The industrial system of manufacturing and selling products no longer provides enough return on investment for those who own the companies given the ever higher cost of energy and the cost of servicing the ever higher debt. It doesn't work any more. Some have responded with efforts to replace US workers with more automation, many more have switched to much cheaper foreign workers to replace both automation and US workers.

Both of these are temporary measures. As the cost energy and debts continue to rise, and the availability of both decrease, the next step is not only no manufacturing jobs, but no products either.

Learn to fix what you have.

What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.

 

[Chris-PA]

What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.

The US peaked in oil production rates in the early 1970's. Despite all the hype we are no where even close to that now and will never get there again, and besides all the oil we produce now costs far more to get. The world has now peaked in the rate of oil production. This is why the cost of energy is rising.

 

[jthornton]

How do you measure efficiency? The most output for the least labor thanks to automation? Is using machines better than using foreign workers?

What do you think using 500 Americans and some automation or just saying screw it and sending all of the work to China?

It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...

John

 

[nt3041]

What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.

Our labour cost and I'm as guilty as the next guy.

 

[philoshop]

When labor and management see eye to eye and agree that the goal is making the best product possible rather than each individual in the system trying to make the most money for themselves, the US kicks butt. Bottom line and end of that story.
That kind of teamwork backfired in a way. Troybuilt is a great example of building a product that was essentially too good. The old roto-tillers, snowblowers, etc that they made in the 60's are still going strong. Their price point was higher than the competition that was coming into the market in the 70's and they lost the entry market. The old machines never wore out and needed to be replaced, so they eventually lost that market as well.
A young guy with a family to feed is gonna buy what he can afford. An older guy has a troybuilt and is not going to replace it. It's a mindset. "I can afford this roto-tiller right now, when I want it, and when the time comes that I can afford the good one I'll probably just pay somebody else to do it".
Tools of the trade are a different story. I'm in construction and I don't buy junk because a tool failure is expensive for me. I heat with wood and a cheap saw that breaks down on the one day that I need it is not what I want to take into the woods.

 

[hamish]

It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...

John

Wow, you have such a great understanding of the world.

 

[Chris-PA]

What do you think using 500 Americans and some automation or just saying screw it and sending all of the work to China?

It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...

John

That was not really my point - you were touting the efficiency of the plant as if that was a universally good thing, but every worker replaced by a machine is just as out of work as one replaced by a foreign worker.

 

[half]

chinese engines

Down in the south pacific we have had chinese stuff for while now, the Chinese are an adaptable manufacturer.They will build to your price. If you want a cheap piece of s--t they will build it for you.And if you want quality they will do that too. If they are putting their name on it usually is is quite competitive in quality and price. I have had lufan engines and they seem quite good. reliable and solid.

But a part made for a contract with another name on it ,weeeellll nor so sure. I have seen iron and oak splitters made in china and they look a bit light. the Chinese are good at copying.
but not their name on it, so quality does not matter

 

[Tazfreak]

In oz small engine workshops/sales will within 3/5 years sell mostly chondas.example a oil alert switch for any gx Honda will cost u more than a new 6.5 hp chonda motor...Folk won,t pay for top quality repairs or purchases unless it,s for emergency equip ,like generators,firepumps etc.I,ve used Honda,yamaha,suzuki,robin,suburu and had a great run with them in the past,tried b/Stratton but didn,t like them,unreliable ,leaky vibrating low performing junk.No real parts backup here.If u make your living using small engines then buy a quality motor.Plenty of folk here use chonda type motors and r getting years of hard service out of them,I have a 6.5 and a 13 hp chonda on two machines,both r 4 years old never play up,start first pull.My secret ''run em on 2 stroke'':msp_biggrin:

 

[Rudolf73]

In oz small engine workshops/sales will within 3/5 years sell mostly chondas.example a oil alert switch for any gx Honda will cost u more than a new 6.5 hp chonda motor...Folk won,t pay for top quality repairs or purchases unless it,s for emergency equip ,like generators,firepumps etc.I,ve used Honda,yamaha,suzuki,robin,suburu and had a great run with them in the past,tried b/Stratton but didn,t like them,unreliable ,leaky vibrating low performing junk.No real parts backup here.If u make your living using small engines then buy a quality motor.Plenty of folk here use chonda type motors and r getting years of hard service out of them,I have a 6.5 and a 13 hp chonda on two machines,both r 4 years old never play up,start first pull.My secret ''run em on 2 stroke'':msp_biggrin:

Yeah honda put themselves out of the market with their parts prices (parts which are now made in china). For instance, we needed a new muffler for a 6.5 honda on a water pump - new price for an genuine muffler was around $200. A replacement chonda (complete engine) on the otherhand - $120. I know what I would buy...

 

[Whitespider]

I don't buy into the "energy cost" theory... that rising energy costs are putting U.S. manufacturers out out business, or driving them to source from overseas. I don't disagree that energy cost is rising... but those cost increases could be easily absorbed by the purchasing public. Two larger increasing expenses are hitting U.S. manufacturing hard... much larger and increasing at a faster rate than energy.

1. Labor cost - And not just the hourly wage and salaries. The "legacy" labor expense is huge, many times greater than energy. Look at financial reports from any big U.S. manufacturer and the amount spent on "prior" employees will make your head spin (pensions, retirement, settlements, healthcare, etc.). Spending money on a "non-producing" employee is flat stupid, extremely poor business practice... but employers have no choice in today's thinking. Add to that the amount it costs to keep "working" employees, just benefits and healthcare alone. What happened to "Major Medical" insurance?? Why does an employer have to provide insurance that pays for sniffles?? Why is a employer expected to provide your retirement?? What happened to personal responsibility?? This is where unions and their "relationships" with big government are to blame... big time!!
2. Regulation - Each new regulation imposed by government costs manufactures billions. Just paying people to bring facilities up to the "new" code, and keeping them in compliance is expensive because those "people" are "non-producing" employees. Last year we installed security cameras at a new tire manufacturer... they had a 5-person staff of "safety" directors that basically drove around on golf carts telling employees to put on their eye protection and such. What happened to personal responsibility?? Why is the employer expected to babysit adult employees?? Why is it the employer's fault if and employee removes his safety glasses (while standing next to a sign that says "Protective Eye Wear Required) and loses an eye?? Five "non-producing" employees pulling a salary, and benefits, and retirement, and paid vacations, and who-knows-what-else, all because of regulation!! It goes beyond common sense... it's stupid!! We are supposed to be adults, we are supposed to be old enough to take personal responsibility; yet forced, unfair and overreaching regulation treats us as children... and worse, we allow it!!

OK, just my take from the trenches. No intent to make this political, just a rebuttal to the "Hubbert curve theory" that "peak oil production/rising energy cost" is the driving factor in U.S. manufacturing closing and/or moving off-shore... 'cause it is just a "theory", and I ain't buying it.

 

[Chris-PA]

Indeed - it is just a theory that if I keep drinking the coffee in this mug, then eventually coffee will stop coming out of it. Who knows, maybe that won't happen.

 

[brokenbudget]

Yeah honda put themselves out of the market with their parts prices (parts which are now made in china). For instance, we needed a new muffler for a 6.5 honda on a water pump - new price for an genuine muffler was around $200. A replacement chonda (complete engine) on the otherhand - $120. I know what I would buy...

where did you get the price for the 'genuine' honda muffler?
a muffler from honda for the gx series 6.5 is $34 bucks from dealer. includes the heat shield and spark arrestor.

 

[Rudolf73]

where did you get the price for the 'genuine' honda muffler?
a muffler from honda for the gx series 6.5 is $34 bucks from dealer. includes the heat shield and spark arrestor.

It was from a honda dealer a while ago, but nothing is cheap over here. Eg, the dolmar/makita HD filter kit is around 200 also.

 

[brokenbudget]

It was from a honda dealer a while ago, but nothing is cheap over here. Eg, the dolmar/makita HD filter kit is around 200 also.

crap rudolf! didn't see you were down under i totaly get the price you gotsed.

 

[Whitespider]

Indeed - it is just a theory that if I keep drinking the coffee in this mug, then eventually coffee will stop coming out of it.

No... that is not a theory, it's a fact easily proved.

But the amount of oil under the earth surface, where it originates, and how it's produced by natural processes is all based on unproven theory. There is even strong evidence to suggest that oil does not come from the "dead dinosaur theory", rather it is produced by natural earth geologic processes (old, depleted oil fields are filling back up) and we are finding oil where it cannot possibly be according to the antiquated "theories". Do you get that?? Oil could very well be a "renewable resource"!! The decline in U.S., or even world-wide oil production has nothing to do with how much total oil there is... it only has to do with how much oil there is where we are pumping, and/or how much our government(s) allow to be pumped. The "strategic oil reserve" program is based on antiquated theory and should be abolished... theories and facts have come a long way since its inception. Yeah, U.S. oil production has declined since the 70's, but we now know there is more "accessible" oil within our borders than was even dreamed possible in the 70's... just look at what's happening in North Dakota, and that's only being 10% exploited by some estimates. Yep, we've pumped most of the "easy" to get oil (that we know of), but that in no way makes the not-quite-as-easy-to-get oil unworthy of our efforts (especially with new technology)... it damn sure makes more sense then what we're doing now! The longer we wait, the further antiquated our technology becomes.

I do not believe the oil supply is even close to half gone... and I believe it is possible that oil is in fact "renewable" by geologic processes, thereby making it a never ending supply. What I do not do, is accept unproven theory as fact!
I do not drink the kool-aid.