traded 2 farms bosses for a 461 with issues. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

[david newbie]

a young man approached me needing saws to cut firewood, he a just purchased a 461 that ran at the point of purchase but would not run for him. I gave hime a nice running 029 and 290, and kept the 461,. It was EXTREMELY flooded, I drained it and tried to dry it out with hair dryer etc. I can get it to fire sometimes, and maybe run for 2 seconds, but that's the best I can do so far. Piston looks ok, with some small vertical scratches. Ive hears about coil problems on this saw. Does this sound like a coil problem? It does fire (sometimes), but sure won't start and run. Apparently there is no way to test the coil. I still have the impression it wants to flood. If the coil was the problem, would it still fire occasionally? Don't want to throw parts at it if it's the wrong part, I already know how to do that! (see 372xp carb thread). btw, not sure if that's the original cylinder?

 

[trains]

First thing to look at with a flooding saw, is the metering needle, and lever/ diaphram is set up correctly.

Have seen bits of dried up fuel mix stop the needle from sealing, and causing the fuel to flood the crank case when the saw was left to sit.

Take off carb and inspect further, and let us know what you find, feel free to post more pictures.

as far as the cyld being original, cant help, sorry, I dont recognise those cast letters.
yes it does look like someone has been in there before you tho.

 

[pioneerguy600]

Gilardoni cylinder, not sure that would be original but they made very good sets for many Stihl saws.

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

Wouldn’t worry about the top end, piston looks good cylinder is OEM, either original or OEM replacement. First thing I’d do is pressure vacuum test. If it passes both rebuild carb and replace fuel filter, fuel hose, and pulse hose. Probably good idea to replace spark plug as well for good measure. Use OEM parts!

 

[pioneerguy600]

Inline spark tester works well but I most often just remove the plug, then reattach the HT lead, ground the plug to the cylinder and pull er over, sometimes a darker room is needed to see the spark jump the electrode to the tip but if you get spark every time the flywheel passes the module it should be good enough to run the saw. I have had to replace coil/modules on my 044, MS362, and even a venerable 028 that many on here says they never fail, they certainly do. It`s the chip in the module that most often packs it in, the coil part may test out as good but if the chip fails then spark either becomes erratic or no spark at all.

 

[david newbie]

Inline spark tester works well but I most often just remove the plug, then reattach the HT lead, ground the plug to the cylinder and pull er over, sometimes a darker room is needed to see the spark jump the electrode to the tip but if you get spark every time the flywheel passes the module it should be good enough to run the saw. I have had to replace coil/modules on my 044, MS362, and even a venerable 028 that many on here says they never fail, they certainly do. It`s the chip in the module that most often packs it in, the coil part may test out as good but if the chip fails then spark either becomes erratic or no spark at all.

I have an in line spark tester, so I will check that. If it shows spark, does that indicate that the ignition unit is probably okay? I have not removed the carb yet

 

[StihlTeck]

If it shows spark, ignition might be okay while the unit is cold. Bad ignition modules tend to fail when they reach operating temp. After that the spark starts to dissipate. Once the ignition module cools down spark will come back. This cylinder is NOT OEM. There will always be a capital S with like a box around it stamped into the part. Check the rings to make sure they are free. You can use a poker to wiggle it, just try not to mar the metal. Scratches like that are normally from carbon breaking off from the top of the cylinder making their way between the piston and cylinder. 9/10 when a saw is brought to me with aftermarket cylinder head they have a leak. whether it be a vacuum or pressure leak. Like trains said inspect the carb, metering side. check to make sure that the metering diaphragm is not stiff. This will cause ALOT of running issues. Also run a compression test. Minimum 90psi required. 130-150 Optimal.

 

[cookies]

More than once I have seen flooding flat out kill a spark plug, it might sputter and pop but never fire correctly after getting fuel quenched. I'd check the carb guts out, turn the needles in and start with a fresh plug and clean/checked/base set carb. I'd also check the plug wire from the coil to the connector in the boot.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I have had to replace coil/modules on my 044, MS362, and even a venerable 028 that many on here says they never fail, they certainly do.

Yeah, I've come to learn that's one of the worst bits of advice you routinely hear on chainsaws - "coils on those rarely fail". Maybe not the windings, no, but the chips do all too often. I've probably almost had more saws with ignition issues than fuel issues by now. I used to just check for spark briefly with my tester and if it had any, assumed it was good. Caused me to waste time chasing other things when it turned out the spark was erratic.

 

[pioneerguy600]

I have an in line spark tester, so I will check that. If it shows spark, does that indicate that the ignition unit is probably okay? I have not removed the carb yet

If it has steady spark, not just a jump now and then, it should fire up and run at least til it warms up, once it warms it could still lose spark again as the chip often fails when warmed up. I have had bad ignition modules give enough spark to start the engine to run briefly like two seconds and shut off, others have stared and run erratically for a few minutes and then stall, show no spark again until the unit cooled down, sometimes it would spark again, other times it would not. These days I just replace the module if suspect and get on with either running the saw or carry out other repairs. I often have a spare module, either used OEM or one of the cheap AM ones just swap one out and if that makes things work correctly then replace it with a new one. There is really no test one can do on the spark modules that are 100% on whether they are good or bad under running conditions. I have a friend and neighbor that wasted a month of weekends messing with his Jonsered 2060, it would start and run a few seconds, over and over , I knew it was spark but he is cheap and wouldn`t give in and replace the module, he tore the saw apart several times, did the carb clean and rebuild, replaced lines and filters to no avail, I got him an AM module and put that in, the saw has been running faithfully for the last 6 months, used every weekend on firewood duty.

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

If it shows spark, ignition might be okay while the unit is cold. Bad ignition modules tend to fail when they reach operating temp. After that the spark starts to dissipate. Once the ignition module cools down spark will come back. This cylinder is NOT OEM. There will always be a capital S with like a box around it stamped into the part. Check the rings to make sure they are free. You can use a poker to wiggle it, just try not to mar the metal. Scratches like that are normally from carbon breaking off from the top of the cylinder making their way between the piston and cylinder. 9/10 when a saw is brought to me with aftermarket cylinder head they have a leak. whether it be a vacuum or pressure leak. Like trains said inspect the carb, metering side. check to make sure that the metering diaphragm is not stiff. This will cause ALOT of running issues. Also run a compression test. Minimum 90psi required. 130-150 Optimal.

It’s 100% a OEM top end. I’ve got two 461 parts saws at work with exact same Gilardoni cylinders.

 

[david newbie]

Pulled the carb, this saw is much easier than some! Metering diaphragm was quite stiff and the metering lever seemed a little high. I ordered a K10 hd kit. The mail is painfully slow this month. Bah, humbug. Carb is a HD17. Btw, where do you guys look up the correct kit

 

[david newbie]

Is that the correct carb? HD17?

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

Is that the correct carb? HD17?

Yes. All HD series carbs take the same kit.

 

[david newbie]

Yes. All HD series carbs take the same kit.

But does that carb sound right ? I was expecting something like hd50 or hd24?

 

[david newbie]

Put a spark tester on pulled a number of times and spark seems good when cold at least

 

[david newbie]

Update. Put a squirt of fuel in the carb intake and it ran for a couple seconds and died. I feel happier now. I think my next step will be to wait for Santa to bring me a carb kit

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

But does that carb sound right ? I was expecting something like hd50 or hd24?

I’ll have to look at the parts history, as I recall HD-50 is what the IPL shows as current carb. If you can provide the serial number of your saw I’ll look it up tomorrow at work.

 

[david newbie]

I’ll have to look at the parts history, as I recall HD-50 is what the IPL shows as current carb. If you can provide the serial number of your saw I’ll look it up tomorrow at work.

will have to look for that tomorrow morning. I was expecting an HD 50, acres internet said hd 24, so I don't know how I have an hd17. I have a 290 carb on my bench that looks very similar and is marked hd18. confusing, possibly a frankinsaw?

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

will have to look for that tomorrow morning. I was expecting an HD 50, acres internet said hd 24, so I don't know how I have an hd17. I have a 290 carb on my bench that looks very similar and is marked hd18. confusing, possibly a frankinsaw?

That’s possible, HD-17 is 440/460 carb if I remember correctly.