Tree Damage From Crop Spraying

[arathol]

That's not how labs work. They report what the find. If they manipulated results, their creditably goes to 0 immediately. Many universities work HEAVILY with the agricultural sector and may well have been contracted by chemical companies to do research on the products being used. Does that same assumption that they are too biased to give honest results apply to them too? (I don't think that is the case...but given they are tied to the ag industry, if you doubt the results from private labs why not universities?)

Columbia Labs is not an "agriculture" lab, FWIW. They are one of a few labs able to test for pesticide residue and metabolites.

I was referring to posts like this -

With chemical trespass that curls leaves the best outcome is the authorities will levy a fine on the applicator. Unless they are repeat offenders. I live in TN this is not CT the good old boys club is live and well. The county ag station guys are pro farm.

Any facility that accepts lots of money from the major pharmaceutical companies should be suspect.
How would you know if the testing had been skewed in the farmers favor unless you take precautions? You'd need to use split samples and have independent testing of those samples done by more than one lab, which would be prohibitively expensive.

Also, this is why I suggested taking the problem outside of the agricultural sector to a lab where people don't care about the big pharma influence and a complete XRF analysis of the samples can be done without prejudice.

 

[FabianRW]

I'd look into the simple acidity/alkalinity and the fertility of the soil, it is possible that due to the surrounding agricultural land there has been no enrichment for some time.

 

[Dudders]

Big Pharma, including Bayer and Monsanto are evil.
But, that's okay, I understand you may do business with those companies and rely on their products to stay in business. May be a necessary evil, but just the same, evil.
You haven't been violated and you aren't watching 2 1/2 acres of mature trees and other vegetation shrivel up and die a slow and agonizing death from a (presumed) direct result of chemical poisoning.
Holding somebody liable will not reverse the damage done to my trees.
Saying "move on" or, "get over it" does not come from a place of sympathy, or compassion.

Hopefully, the damage is only temporary and I will be able to get over it and move on. Only time will tell, but in the meantime it is agonizing to see everything in my yard that I have worked so hard to cultivate for 29 years be completely decimated. And the thought of possibly losing any of it is unbearable.

I don't expect you to know how I feel, and that's okay.
I do appreciate the info you have shared with me.

I'd say you're stepping over a line into what's not acceptable here. It's totally understandable, however, because of your very upsetting experience.

ATH has rightly pointed out that it's not the tool, or the maker of the tool, but the person using it who's initially responsible for any damage done by the tool. And even the user is not evil if he's made a mistake. Only if he had a general policy of flouting the rules would his actions be 'evil'.

But we have to dig deeper into more uncomfortable areas to find who is really responsible for the problem of agri-chemical use damaging people's lives. The root of the problem is us - not some of us - all of us. Those of us who are well-fed, especially those who are overweight, put pressure on the system to produce lots of food. Those of us who go shopping and deliberately pick the cheapest food, put pressure on the system to produce lots of food cheaply. That can't be done for today's population levels without the use of 'chemicals' such as herbicides, fertilisers, pesticides, etc. And any bright idea to produce food more cheaply will be given a go, often with catastrophic results.

In the UK, our recent outbreaks of Foot & Mouth and BSE were ultimately caused by the shopper always buying the cheapest meat. We still suffer from those calamities today, because the government slapped very tough restrictions on British agriculture, but is happy to allow cheap imports of food from other countries where those standards do not apply.

What to do about it? If we all ate less and bought only the best quality food, that would help. Show producers that we'd rather have good food than cheap food. And the most effective solution would be for us humans to curb our breeding.

But it's not going to happen, so we'll just carry on pointing the finger at Monsanto or our neighbouring farmer and refuse to believe that we ourselves are the reason we have chemicals floating about in the air, killing our garden plants. So I'm afraid it really is a case of 'get over it and move on', because it's not a sympathetic or compassionate world out there and you're a part of it.

I'll get my hat...

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I'd say you're stepping over a line into what's not acceptable here. It's totally understandable, however, because of your very upsetting experience.

ATH has rightly pointed out that it's not the tool, or the maker of the tool, but the person using it who's initially responsible for any damage done by the tool. And even the user is not evil if he's made a mistake. Only if he had a general policy of flouting the rules would his actions be 'evil'.

But we have to dig deeper into more uncomfortable areas to find who is really responsible for the problem of agri-chemical use damaging people's lives. The root of the problem is us - not some of us - all of us. Those of us who are well-fed, especially those who are overweight, put pressure on the system to produce lots of food. Those of us who go shopping and deliberately pick the cheapest food, put pressure on the system to produce lots of food cheaply. That can't be done for today's population levels without the use of 'chemicals' such as herbicides, fertilisers, pesticides, etc. And any bright idea to produce food more cheaply will be given a go, often with catastrophic results.

In the UK, our recent outbreaks of Foot & Mouth and BSE were ultimately caused by the shopper always buying the cheapest meat. We still suffer from those calamities today, because the government slapped very tough restrictions on British agriculture, but is happy to allow cheap imports of food from other countries where those standards do not apply.

What to do about it? If we all ate less and bought only the best quality food, that would help. Show producers that we'd rather have good food than cheap food. And the most effective solution would be for us humans to curb our breeding.

But it's not going to happen, so we'll just carry on pointing the finger at Monsanto or our neighbouring farmer and refuse to believe that we ourselves are the reason we have chemicals floating about in the air, killing our garden plants. So I'm afraid it really is a case of 'get over it and move on', because it's not a sympathetic or compassionate world out there and you're a part of it.

I'll get my hat...

Thanks for sharing your political/world view.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Getting ready for what's turned into a big event... which I HOPE proves to be not a disaster for my trees.
Myself, the inspector, both farmers, my cousin, and the mayor will be here.

I decided to call farmer #1 this morning. With the others coming to talk to the inspector, I though it best if he could be involved also.
Wish I had called him on day one.
He sprayed around the 21-22 of April, does Not use dicamba and I am doubly convinced he takes all necessary precautions when spraying. He also mentioned the late frosts we had, and I am HOPING that's what it turns out to be.
If it turns out I got in a tizzy over nothing but frost, so be it - at least I'll know what happened and I've had a very interesting crash course in farm chemicals and crops...

I'll let you know what happens.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Found this
https://forestry.ca.uky.edu/frost_freeze_damage
Might have to change the thread title - I hope.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Most excellent article
https://www.nurserymag.com/article/herbicide-drift/

 

[pdqdl]

As a licensed and certified arborist I wasn't able to harvest samples of injury for my client, to be submitted for analysis. We had to get the pathologist from the extension service to gather the evidence. So I don't understand how the plaintiff is able to do so.

Tell us more, please! You probably have all of us beat for experience in this topic.
It might just be that particular judge, or perhaps who the litigants were.

I'm rather confused by your insistence on that topic, however. Since when is an expert, hired to provide expert testimony for his client, not allowed to do his own examination of the materials?

Was this a civil case, or criminal?

 

[pdqdl]

That's not how labs work. They report what the find. If they manipulated results, their creditably goes to 0 immediately. Many universities work HEAVILY with the agricultural sector and may well have been contracted by chemical companies to do research on the products being used. Does that same assumption that they are too biased to give honest results apply to them too? (I don't think that is the case...but given they are tied to the ag industry, if you doubt the results from private labs why not universities?)

Columbia Labs is not an "agriculture" lab, FWIW. They are one of a few labs able to test for pesticide residue and metabolites.

Yes indeed. On top of that, they really don't care who the sample is from. Almost every time they are sampling for a herbicide, it's for litigation of some sort. Not many people are willing to waste time and money just to confirm that an application was done correctly. Testing is for those Ooops! moments.

 

[pdqdl]

.... He also mentioned the late frosts we had, and I am HOPING that's what it turns out to be.
...

Not a chance. Frost damage doesn't cause curling in future foliage.

 

[pdqdl]

One gallon/100? I’m not familiar with any that are labeled for a higher rate than 8oz per 100.

It's been a while since I've read a label that includes that high a rate, but I'm pretty sure that they're out there. I try to buy the ones that are cheap, but effective. The high dollar surfactants aren't quite as much "stickers" as they are "spreaders". Conversely, in the spreader/sticker market, some are intended to be more sticker and adjuvant than others, and come in at higher mixing rate.

I couldn't find a label, but I think Exhalt 800 from PBI Gordon came in at 1 gal/100. It's been a long time since I used any of that stuff.

The most common rate is about one to two pints per hundred. I was posting that up at a pretty high rate, just to make sure that I included the "shiny oak leaf" varieties.

 

[farmer steve]

I guess it would. It is a soil sterilant.

I use a generic version with roundup, ammonium sulfate, and some SURFACTANT to kill green stuff. It's much more effective than just roundup.

By the way: I've been testing out on the applicator's test once every 3 years since '84. I don't take the training courses, because that costs hundreds of dollars, and takes two days of my time. I go take the test, it costs about $50, and I'm done in a few hours.

Just curious what type/brand of generic roundup you are using. I have 4 different brands here (buying what I can due to shortages) and all contain a full load surfactant. Depending on what I am spraying the tougher stuff will get some additional surfactant.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Drum roll..............

Mystery solved!
Inspectors diagnosis: a combination of wrong chemical at the wrong time, coupled with unfavorable weather conditions resulted in volatile inversion.

We many never know who it was because of the distance it could have traveled, but the inspector is going to question the other farmers in the area and look at their records.
One of the first things I overheard the inspector say as soon as he got here was that he as seen A Lot of "gassing" this year. He ascribes it to several things:
Availability of chemical: He said there are shortages of some chemicals and what is available are the "ester" 2-4-D, which are bad for gassing and traveling. He said the salts and amines not so much.
The weather: We've had drastic temp changes from 52 one day to 85 the next, with a lot of wind, wind gusts.
Time/date of spraying: He said 2-4-D ester is usually not a problem when applied early in April, when it is still cold and things haven't leafed out yet. Because this year we had wet weather, early warm spells which caused things to leaf out sooner than usual, and delayed spraying, and because they likely already had the 2-4-D ester on hand, that's what they used.

So, he took samples, typed up a report, said he'd like to stop and check on the trees whenever he's in the area, and has gone off to check on my cousins property and the other damaged areas.

He pointed out some, not all, of the new growth is looking okay. But, they will likely all look like crap at least until next year.
I mentioned it might be a good thing they are still hanging onto the damaged leaves, that are still green, since they may still be helping with photosynthesis. Also, while I was upset about no pecans, walnuts, and buckeyes, it's probably a saving grace for the tree that they will be able to focus energy on tree repair and new growth rather than making nuts. He concurred.

So, there it is - a relatively happy ending to this saga... for now. I'll still be watching my trees like a hawk and monitoring their progress, and will be, for quite a long time.

Thanks for all the input, info, suggestions, and advice - all highly invaluable.
This has been a useful learning experience for me. Maybe you, too.


Think I'll take the rest of the day off and relax.

 

[farmer steve]

@TNTreeHugger. Glad you got some questions answered albeit your stuff is not in the best shape. Hopefully it will make a comeback. I never used the 2,4 D Ester for the very fact of how it can volatilize and drift. 2,4 D is one of the main ingredients in most lawn weed killers 4hst people use.

 

[Raintree]

Just brief info, so not to derail thread. I had as a customer a very high end condo complex. A well known regional landscape company used Imprelis throughout the grounds. I was contacted to ID the issues.
Hundreds of white pines, key privacy trees ended up as toast. The attorneys were going after 7 figures targeting Dupont and the landscapers Ins. Due to the relationship with the injured party I was unable to take and submit samples.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Just brief info, so not to derail thread. I had as a customer a very high end condo complex. A well known regional landscape company used Imprelis throughout the grounds. I was contacted to ID the issues.
Hundreds of white pines, key privacy trees ended up as toast. The attorneys were going after 7 figures targeting Dupont and the landscapers Ins. Due to the relationship with the injured party I was unable to take and submit samples.

Conflict of interest. I can see that.
I wondered about the "quality" of the samples I collected so I wore gloves.
I wondered if I should sterilize the scissors and trowel between snips, but I didn't.
I don't think the inspector used sterilizer either.

 

[arathol]

Conflict of interest? I don't think so.

Who was it that said you couldn't be an independent expert for the plaintiff?
Maybe the court doesn't recognize your credentials as being an "expert". Most often the guys with lots of letters after their names are the ones qualified to be experts.

 

[Jed1124]

Just brief info, so not to derail thread. I had as a customer a very high end condo complex. A well known regional landscape company used Imprelis throughout the grounds. I was contacted to ID the issues.
Hundreds of white pines, key privacy trees ended up as toast. The attorneys were going after 7 figures targeting Dupont and the landscapers Ins. Due to the relationship with the injured party I was unable to take and submit samples.

Imprelis was a bad deal. I was on numerous properties where it caused damage to conifers.
I still hear how it was just because applicators did not follow proper mixing instructions.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Imprelis was a bad deal. I was on numerous properties where it caused damage to conifers.
I still hear how it was just because applicators did not follow proper mixing instructions.

I came across Imprelis in an article yesterday when looking for info on the make pollen cones on that pine tree near me.
Not good.

 

[pdqdl]

Just curious what type/brand of generic roundup you are using. I have 4 different brands here (buying what I can due to shortages) and all contain a full load surfactant. Depending on what I am spraying the tougher stuff will get some additional surfactant.
View attachment 988992View attachment 988993

EDIT: I misread your question. Looks like just about the same stuff. 80%-20% by Drexel.

I usually add Imazapyr (Arsenal) to the batch too, because I just don't want anything green in the area at all. DEATH to green stuff, I'm doing industrial weed control.
I used to put in 12lbs per acre of Krovar soil sterilant, but I think my weeds all became Krovar-resistant. The glyphosate imazapyr mix is working pretty well for total control, but does fall down on the residual side of things.