Trenching through oak roots

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Did he use trunk formula, cost of cure, or replacement cost method?

If you do wind up losing the trees, you may want to claim a capital loss to your property, and tf isn't best for that.

re the elm value, perhaps after research he figured out that it isn't a "trash tree". Species bias gave way to a fair look at the tree. That's only fair.
 
There is a 1000 ways to price any job, item, service etc. Folks with mal intent tend to price in a way that makes the greed inherent in all human beings override their common or uncommon sense. To make this maybe more clear and understandable, if this water line company is based in Nigeria or your appraiser either one or worse yet both of them, then you would not be paid the billions they assess your trees at anyway.

Corporate crooks are just that and do not deal on the level of decency that we deal with one on one transactions with.

Beaware and be advised. Finally be paid at least some of the precieved value of your trees and your lending your your property for thier use. This is just a negotiated process and mob mentality or past doings, precedent and any other factor need not dictate that you are not allowed to be smarter than all before you that faced similar circumstances. They CANNOT do anything on your property that you do not want is the rule. The rare exception may be that they can but then for sure at a fee some one negotiates or sets. This is if you live in the same America that I do.

The ones that hate Bush wish to speak arabic and tell you differently are simply mistaken. Others of us that may not like him and still prefer english at least have road walking sense know that you look around if the circumstanses you wish do not exist then you create them if you wish to be in the suscessful and not the bitter group.

Charlie
 
Sara I have sent you an email and not sure if you can get it or its in your spam box or what. You may check there if you wish.

Thanks

Charlie
 
Sara said:
stingray bay -They'd have to deal with the phone company to bury the line on the opposite side of the road. Fiber optics lines are buried there. Easier and cheaper to trench through us.


THAT would be ugly. Yes, it would appear to be much easier to take on Joe Average Homeowner than the local telco. If they mess with the telco, well, they've got to deal with them time and time again. It's very much an ongoing relationship. You? If they hit and run, whatever problems you cause them are pretty much a one time deal. You are DEFINITELY the path of least resistance.

Of course, you are trying to make sure it's NOT! :D

However, I very much doubt you are going to get them to relocate. Your best outcome is probably to get them to bore instead of trench.


Go get 'em!
 
I have a slightly different vision of them on their knees begging to turn lose of you from where that grabed and yet cannot yet let go till they pay admission for the rite of passage. If we can manage the time to get with them they will be a small snack for those of us with voricious appitites compared to some giants we have consumed.

Paying for thier meal is a must but tipping is not required nor accepted.

Charlie
 
In the arborists final report, did he list the elm as a Siberian elm? From the photos, it really did not look like one, the form, the bark color- but he is probably pretty used to the trees around there, I don't want to second guess someone who was there from my seeing a small online photo. Just wondered if that was his final verdict.
I'm also curious what formula he used. Personally, I don't like doing appraisals much, don't always agree with the formulas or species ratings, and like Treeseer said, what is considered "commonly available" as a replacement can be hard to really pin down.
But it is the standard we have, it has to do, and it does. And it's good to have some numbers you might be able to use as leverage. Maybe they'll make an effort to stay away to avoid paying. Keep on truckin.
 
What was the outcome?

My husband and I were checking out this thread, and he had an unusual idea you might consider.... he says you should find a couple of really old beaters (vehicles) and take the tires off, then place them in front of both trees where they want to dig. A delaying tactic at best, but hey.... more trouble for them.

Am curious about the outcome of your dilemma... is your husband home yet? Has he raised hell with anyone? :angry2:

Ruthless
 
Hi all!

Remember me? Here's an article that appeared in our local newspaper a couple of weeks ago that will catch y'all up on how this situation is developing.


Thursday, August 10, 2006
Story Date: Friday, July 28, 2006

To kill a tree

Water Distribution District, resident to negotiate trenching
By Reporter

Water Distribution District ran into trouble while trying to complete a waterline on Road early this week.
To save his trees, Daniel parked his truck in front of the backhoe to prevent Water Distribution District from trenching through the roots. He successfully halted progress.
"We just backed off," said Water Distribution District general manager.
Daniel and his family attended the district's board meeting Thursday.
"We're not here to block anybody's waterline," Daniel said. "We just don't want our property damaged."
Daniel, in a telephone interview earlier this week, said he was afraid trenching would kill his trees, which the Arbor Society valued at almost $18,000.
"I wouldn't sell them for that," he said, noting half the charm of his home was from the trees. "I'm not an opportunistic individual, I just don't want to see the trees damaged."
He said he was never notified of Water Distribution District intentions to trench and that Water Distribution District had no right to dig beside his trees.
"We have a standing easement to go on the county right of way," general manager said in a telephone interview.
The county has an easement for road maintenance in front of Daniel's house. Water Distribution District had been trenching down the ditch line.
After calling the County Judge, general manager told the board the county would allow trenching in the middle of the road. The county would take care of the road and keep it graded, general manager said. It would also lessen damage to the trees.
However, should the road ever be improved, the 40 feet of 6-inch line may need to be moved, he said.
Daniel requested the line be run on the other side of the road, but Water Distribution District officials said the cost would be higher. The waterline would have to cross the road twice, said the supervisor.
Daniel said he'd pay the difference for running the line on the other side of the road.
A board member suggested Water Distribution District inquire on how much running the line on the opposite side of the road would cost and give Daniel the opportunity to pay the difference.
Otherwise, the line will probably go through the county's easement.
"We'll stay as far away (from the trees) as we can," general manager said.



And here's a letter that I haven't sent yet (it may need some polishing up), but that I intend to send by the time the board meets again on Aug. 22:


August 3, 2006

Mr. General Manager
Water Distribution District

Dear Mr. General Manager,

On the morning of July 31, 2006, you phoned to say that Water Distribution District had arrived at an alternative plan for the routing of the water main on Road. Among other things, the new plan offers us the opportunity to foot the entire bill – in the amount of $2405. 30 - for the rerouting of the main. You assured us that you would mail a copy of the cost estimate to us in a timely fashion.

On the morning of August 2, 2006, you phoned again to say you had found on your desk the unmailed cost estimate. We have enclosed a copy of the cover letter we received from you by mail later that day which, of course, included no cost estimate.

This matter has been a very expensive one for us, and the longer it remains unsettled, the more costly it becomes. We consider the above lapse in communication to be “par for the course” and further evidence that Water Distribution District did not, does not, and will not represent itself in an efficient, honest or straightforward manner and is, therefore, not to be trusted; that, indeed, in its efforts to ram this water main down our throats, while causing thousands of dollars of irreparable damage to our property, it will doggedly persist in its exaggerations, misrepresentations and falsifications regarding the past, present and future plans for the routing of this water main.

Since June 28, 2006 (the day this all began for us) we have lost a substantial amount of money, while expending prodigious amounts of time and energy to see our property protected from Water Distribution District's destructive and covert operations. (Please see the enclosed Itemization of Expenses for all relevant documentation). Nonetheless, we have enclosed a check for $1202.65, half the projected cost of this charade, which we offer in spite of already having been bilked out of thousands of dollars. We feel this is a “fair” contribution to the moving of the main back to the west side of the road, where - as we’ve come to understand - it originally belonged.

It must be noted, in the interest of witness-bearing, that Water Distribution District is solely responsible for this latest setback in the laying of the main. If Water Distibution District had done its homework and found out who owned the property that was in the way of its back hoes before it sent them in that direction, this conflict, not to mention expense, would have been entirely avoided. We would have been glad of the opportunity to work with Water Distribution District in its efforts to be of public service. As it stands now, though, Water Distribution District is attempting to foist the consequences of its failure to do its homework onto us; and if we can’t pay the bill, Water Distribution District gets to go ahead and trench on our property, within the drip lines of our trees, just a few scant feet away from where it originally planned to.

All in all, Water Distribution District's actions in this matter have revealed virtually nothing but utter disregard for legalities and liabilities. From Day One of this debacle, Water Distribution District has proclaimed its right and power to dispose of our property as it sees fit. We feel this hubris must be born witness to; so, to that end, we have just finished putting together a file (including video tape) of the misrepresentations, examples of negligence, and - well… outright bullheadedness that we have suffered at the hands of Water Distribution District officials for the past month. We will send the file along forthwith at Water Distribution District's request.

If Water Distribution District persists in its efforts to hold us responsible for its misdeeds by insisting we pay the remaining $1202.65- “or else” - we ask to be notified in writing immediately, so that we can prepare to deal yet another blow to our already battered finances. Whatever it takes.

By the way, Water Distribution District's acknowledgement of us and our situation at its board meeting of July 27, 2006 (despite being the first and only proper communication Water Distribution District has offered since this conflict began) did bring us some small measure of hope that this matter could be settled judiciously. We thank Water Distribution District for that and remain

Respectfully Yours,

Daniel and Sara

P.S. Our costs regarding this matter increase with each passing day. We reserve the right to adjust our figures accordingly.

Cc: Water Distribution District Board Member
Cc: County Judge



I'll post more later. Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Sara, I am glad you decided to protect what is yours. While I am sorrowful that you choose to finance the operations of an obviously dubious company that is up to no good and their only interest is profiteering, I shall not meddle in your finances.

I remain available if I can offer any help of anykind related to this matter.

Go get 'em!

Charlie
 
Sara, thanks for the update.

Yes that third paragraph needs some work to remove the runons, and overall a little less name-calling may work to your benefit.

I am proud to see Americans stand up and defend their rights!

You cc'd the judge, but is there any other state agency, utility commission, epa, that this utility must answer to? NO harm in ccing any body that the utility may fear or respect.
 
Sara I think if Daniel will pull the public record of the easment of the county he will find that it does not allow for any general or specific wording that would allow without further permissions or grants from the current land owner any rights to lay any water line in it.

I am confident you would not have to pay a dime if you choose not too.

Be assured that I am not timid nor plussed by group pressure nor govt intities that is contrary to my thinking as well and you report as much of your story as you feel comfortable with here.


I personally think you do not need to write like a legal scholar to be heard and giving an attorney your money is tantamount to giving it to an extortionist as it will just open an appatite for more.

Now with my thoughts always comes a bit more firm support as well and if you need some funding to continue this then I am sure your helpful friends here would be glad to pitch in a small donation that can add up . In fact put me down for donation to back my good intent with more than words and just holler when you need it.
Charlie
 
gladhatter said:
you do not need to write like a legal scholar to be heard and giving an attorney your money is tantamount to giving it to an extortionist as it will just open an appatite for more.

Mike, I don't know what your experience has been, but I have to agree more with Charlie here. $1200 is a short day's pay for a lawyer here, and much of that would be spent getting them up to speed. Then they may well demand a commission on top of their hourly, and that is after they get a retainer. If you're hitting a wall with a utility, go over their head, to a utility commission or other agency that they depend on for their monopoly.:bowdown:

Read their charter, especially the part about "public service", and shine a bright light on those words!
 
Let's see, the first lawyer we contacted about this was extremely patronizing, the second wouldn't even return our call, the third represented the water company, and the fourth wanted a $1500 retainer, assuring us that we could expect to pay upwards of $5000 for a court case. I believe it will be more "cost effective" for us to finance the water line. The water company is now bound by a contract to move the line across the road.

Upon reading the newspaper article, that fourth lawyer gave us an encouraging phone call. In her immortal words, "You won, now pay up and go on." :fart:

It's not over til the fat lady sings, though. And she hasn't yet, not by a long shot. :jester:

The bright spot in all this is that our magnificent trees are safe!
 
Last edited:
Are your magnificent trees really safe???

Thanks for the site...

Been following your thread with keen interest, impressed with your prose, my guess is now you're beginning to understand what real Arborists do nearly every day...

Take the next steps to ensuring your trees are rewarding the senses of your lineage for the next couple of centuries, erect some bollards or fences to ensure they do survive and maybe a plaque with a brief of this story, here in Aus' you can write your trees or vegetation into the title of the property so they can never be touched without approval by government (called a "vegetation covenant") trees are relatively immortal compared to us, they could carry your story for the next few millenia, just a thought...
 
I should have said, "Our magnficent trees are safe for now", because there is probably going to be development happening around here fairly soon. We have learned that there has been no plat submitted regarding that. And the county judge told us that there are no plans before him now for work on our road. So I think we can breathe a little easier.

arboralliance said:
erect some bollards or fences to ensure they do survive and maybe a plaque with a brief of this story, here in Aus' you can write your trees or vegetation into the title of the property so they can never be touched without approval by government (called a "vegetation covenant")

What an interesting idea! Thanks! I wonder if we have anything like that "vegetation covenant" here. Ekka, a countryman of yours, mentioned something about that at the beginning of this thread.

BTW, where is Mr. Nonburger, anyway?


gladhatter said:
Sara, I am glad you decided to protect what is yours.

treeseer said:
I am proud to see Americans stand up and defend their rights!


I wish you guys could see the video tape from the day we stopped the backhoe in its tracks. I used the camcorder instead of the digital, because the sound and picture quality were better. Boy, was that an exciting day! :rock:

Upon my husband's arrival home, we decided to try and force their hand by having no communication with them, other than the yellow Caution tape and No Trespassing signs we edged the property with. We staked the signs and tape along the back slope of the ditch line, not wanting to create obstacles too close to, or even in (since we own to the centerline) the road way. The backhoe operator left two messages that week trying to find out "when are we gonna be able get through your yard!" Our answering machine wasn't working, so we didn't get the messages until later.

Sure enough, here they came with their equipment on Monday of the following week, trenching up the ditch line right up against our tape and signs. Daniel was in the front yard, changing the oil in his bike, watching them closely, waiting to see if perchance they were going to cross the road. When the trencher showed no sign of doing this and started closing in on the drip line of the elm, Daniel strolled calmly over (I trailing him with the camcorder) and inquired as to whether they were going to cross the road. The backhoe operator grunted and gave an impatient "No, I ain't crossing no road!", put his head down, and continued his trenching. Daniel told him he was trespassing and asked him to cease. The operator said nothing but motioned him to get away.

That's when Daniel, no longer strolling, marched back to the truck, got in, and pulled it into the path of the oncoming trencher, nose to nose with it. What fun to film the operator throwing his hands up and turning off his equipment!

At that point, Daniel approached him again, politely informing him that he was trespassing and to cease; and, further, to get his equipment off our property or he would have it impounded. The backhoe guy picked up his cell phone, called his office and whined, "He's gone and parked his truck right in my way, so you're gonna have to call the sheriff to get it out of here." At the same time, Daniel picked up his own phone and called the sheriff to report trespassers on our property. Since Daniel didn't have to get any higher ups to do his bidding, his call went through first. I called the local newspaper.

It was a three ring circus from that point on, with the law and the press and water company officials arriving, causing a traffic jam in the road. A beautiful sight!

They just never know when they might be dealing with a former tree hugger and a :monkey: wrencher.

The deputy didn't know what to do when he arrived. His first words were, "I don't think you have the right to tell them to stop." When Daniel mentioned that they were working on an expired permit (from the Health Dept. - have I mentioned that?), the deputy got a funny look on his face. He made some phone calls and was speaking with the trenching crew when the newspaper photographer arrived.

After speaking with me briefly, the photographer walked right over there and starting snapping off shots. It was awesome. You should have seen how nice the deputy became to us at that point. He came on over and started admiring our trees and sharing stories of how wonderful is the shade they provide.

It was the perfect time of day for this to be happening, about 3 p.m.... with the temp edging up over 100... and the shadow of the oak looming over the entire house. Everybody kept moving further and further inside that shadow. Everybody except the trenching crew, that is; who were, sadly, on the wrong side of the elm.

As the water co. officials started arriving, it was interesting to note that they came empty handed. That is, they weren't waving around any paper work that would prove they weren't on the wrong side of the law.

Eventually, after speaking at length with water officials and chatting up the photographer a bit, the deputy came over with a broad smile on his face and said, "The good news is, I can't tell you to move your truck." :biggrinbounce2:

Things calmed down a bit after that, with the departure of the press, then the law, and finally water company officials. There was only us and the trenching crew left. We watched triumphantly from our shady porch as they started up their equipment and backed it off our property, then packed it up and went home. I promise we went weren't gloating as we filmed their retreat.

We felt empowered that day, and it was an incredible feeling, so exhilarating!

That feeling lasted the better part of a week, through the water co. board meeting we attended, up until the general manager called to let us know they had worked up a cost estimate for us.

:yoyo:
I'll tell the story of the board meeting, if anyone wants to hear it.:rockn
 
Last edited:
Priceless! Do Tell!

It would also be lovely to see pictures of the trencher near the elm. If they came 1" onto your property, there could be hellebore to pay.

The ASCA consultant's forum is hopping today with the topic of criminal tree cases.
Also today I had 3 consultations to do, all related to cities taking and damaging trees as they widen roads and redo sewer easements. People everywhere are standing up for their trees and their rights! God Bless America!:blob2:

Ever since the Supreme court sold out on the Kelo case, there's been a groundswell of interest in defending one's home, castle and trees. Let's keep the pressure on the government to respect citizens, even the ones who are not land developers!

Sara, you are an inspiration.:rockn:
 
Precedence (and in this case poetry) in motion...

would love to hear about all the goings on...

Having come from logging and agriculture into Arboriculture and consulting I am keen to see/hear your story as it sets precedence for all/any others wanting to attempt the same and I know I will be drawing from your case in the near future for sure...

We have the Brisbane City Royal Queensland Show starting here this weekend which is called the "Ekka" of all things (Brisbane "Exhibition" we Aussies love to shorten words) and thus leaves me wondering if "Ekka" /Mr nonburger is refering to himself as being an exibitionist? All the same Ekka may be busy with family and or business at the Ekka and comming into spring is a busy time of year for Arborists also...

Fortunately the Water Company didnt come in during dormancy (winter or fall) of the trees and claim they were dead/dying anyway...
 

Latest posts

Back
Top