The pics posted look like four strokes to me. You can see the drain plug for the crank case on the third pic.
Two-Stroke Oils: All the Same?
- Thread starter Paul Bunions
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I just ordered a bottle of this on Ebay to try it out for myself. I wanted to chime in here because I actually enjoy these types of threads and reading peoples experiences, esteeming those especially that include pics of torn down motors, which most would never want to be bothered with doing (including myself, so I just go off of extensive research, reading reviews, not believing everything I read by a long shot, collating data, learning who actually knows what their talking about. For example, Pe Reivers, who died in 2013, who was a mechanical engineer designing RC aircraft engines, and Tired Old Man, a guy on RC plane forums whos JOB was to explicitly test 2 stroke oils for the US Government for 2 stroke powered drone aircraft, testing engines to literal destruction (and not by running stupidly thin ratios like 100 to 1 or anything). Because of those 2 alone are the reason I put in the effort to secure 120 quarts of Mobil 1 Racing 2T, as well as many cases of the original Pennzoil Air Cooled 2 cycle in the 3.2oz yellow bottles (not the ones that say "Outdoor" on them) - the only dino oil ever made on the planet that was/is actually listed in the official JASO PDF as JASO FD (besides C).
Generally speaking, I don't fret over the supposed "best", because even if a certain product was, there are enough other brands that are of superb quality as well, that you would never know the difference anyways.
I do "deep dives" on oils by scouring the Internet for user accounts of an oil that I find out about, and when I see multiple praises of something, on many different types of forums, from people that have nothing to do with each other, I will start to believe that said product is actually probably good. For example, there are literally *thousands* of posts across the Internet, on dozens of different forums, about MX2T/Mobil 1 Racing 2T.
Back onto Champion WP2: https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1376348-2-stroke-oil-for-trail-rider/
"I don’t have the list, but there are a lot of good oils out there for low rpm, trail riding type stuff. Maxima Super M, Motul 710, and many more. I’ve had really good luck with the Maxima. Years ago, we ran Champion WP2, (formerly Duralube). I ran the MSXC series one year on it, and did a lot of other trail riding, and had the least wear of any oil I’ve ever used."
"I’m personally not a fan of Amsoil. We just had a catastrophic failure, and when I tore it down, there was rust inside, and very little residual oil. I just can’t buy into the less oil, full synthetic, low flashpoint blah blah blah. I know what has worked for me for 30 years, and will stick with it from now on. If it were mine, I would run the Motul, Super M, or Champion at 40:1."
https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/758329-champion-wp2-premix/
"I used Champion Water Pumper oil in my KX 500 for years,(and Huskys before that). Great oil, inside of the KX motor was always clean. Before they changed their name, Champion was Dura Lube. They have been around for years..I would recommend it."
"I've used this oil, Dura Lube now Champion WP2, since 1976. It is simply the best 2 stroke oil there is. If anything I don't understand why they named it WP2 because it says on the bottle, for water and air cooled motors. I raced an entire season on my 490 Maico with only .001" piston skirt wear and .004" ring end gap wear at 32/1. At 50/1 I went 5 years on a CR250 without touching the engine and it still ran strong when I sold it. In all those 35 years I have never fouled one plug. The crank always has lots of oil in it on tear down, I have never found any rust and it doesn't carbon up the exhaust port. I would not use any other oil even if it was free. It never separates from gas and it doesn't corrode the carb if your bike sits a long time. Over all the years I have been around all kinds of guys that use all kinds of different oils and all of them have some sort of issue. I've heard it all. I've never had ANY issues with this oil. It is simply the best."
Look at the reviews here: https://www.amazon.com/Champion-Pumper-2-Cycle-Racing-Premix/dp/B000GZR58Y#customerReviews
Here's a very obscure oil I ran across the other day. Someone who stated they used the above has said they've switched to this just based on availability (probably didn't want to buy gallon quantities): Dicks Oil Co CS2T ($15 a quart) https://dicksoilco.com/collections/two-stroke-lubricants/products/cs2t-two-stroke-oil-1-quart
Also, based on reading rogue60's posts, where he included multiple teardown pics, I just made an international order (from the UK) for 5 liters of Dino Castrol Garden 2T, to be shipped to the US, since you cannot buy it from anywhere within the US:
"It's mineral oil and good stuff I've used Castrol mineral oils for over 25 years. I can't vouch for all mineral oils but can vouch for Active and Garden in hard working saws clean burning excellent ring seal no blow by and never any oil layer break down allowing piston to bore contact. I will add in actual hard working work saws over 90cc I've always run 25:1 never had an oil related problem. Mineral oil scares people you will probably be talked into some expensive synthetic bike oil by weeks end lol."
https://o p e f o r u m.com/threads/high-hr-stihl-066.3514/https://o p e f o r u m.com/threads/ms880.19451/
Here's another very obscure oil that no one here has probably ever heard about (no idea if its any good just linking this if anyone wants to test it out, same with the Dicks Oil Co product mentioned earlier): http://www.recpower.com/bluemax.htm
http://www.recpower.com/docs/BlueMax_2-cycle-Oil_SDS_1-2018.pdf
#1 , Premium grade mineral oil is a 1st generation synthetic oil . #2 , You used the wrong Amsoil product for your application . Many synthetic grade oils with the wrong base or additive package will cause rust formation during storage especially . I have ran every conceivable oil formulation manufactured , have never had a catastrophic engine failure of any kind while racing or recreational usage of sleds , bikes or ope. recreational engines . There are at least a dozen premium oils that are more than adequate for today's 2 strokes engines . I just recently finished a evaluation of Red Armour Synthetic in 2 high performance sleds , I found it superb in a Polaris 650 RXL & more than adequate in a 850 RMK . Both sleds previously had run flawlessly on Amsoil Interceptor & Dominator & Shell XT high performance mineral sled oil for over 2- 3 yrs within severe service applications . Any premium oil , ran within the proper ratio for their application will provide excellent service !
Most, not any. Redline Racing 2- stroke is considered a premium oil, and there are many accounts on this forum, and others, with the same accounts of rust inside the crankcase, corroded/tarnished brass carb jets. Then there's Lucas "High Performance" Semi-Synthetic, an oil many "swear by" because they are ignorant, an oil that has been utterly and completely exposed on this forum and others to be complete garbage and should never be used unless one wants to purposely destroy their engine by having dry internals even at a 25:1 ratio. Real world testing means something, claims by multiple manufacturers over the years have been repeatedly proven (on this forum even) to be outright lies. I can post probably 5-6 quotes from different RC aircraft forums where multiple different people have had multi-thousand dollar RC planes fall out of the sky due to engine seizure using Amsoil Saber, caused from its high metallic ash additive concentration (to enable it to "be used at 100:1") along with many accounts of Saber producing unbelievably hard black carbon, moreso than that observed in any other oil.
P.S. Let's not forget about Stihl HP Ultra, incessantly pushed on everyone that walks into a Stihl dealership nationwide.
#1 There are numerous synthetic blended oils that will cause internal corrosion , especially within long term storage, Red line is only one such oil . #2 I have used Saber for 3 yrs within my high performance Polaris 650 Air cooled RXL @ a Premix 50:1 ratio with excellent results . Amsoil Sabre is designed for handheld air cooled engines , not RC engines . Although rated @ 100:1 within properly tuned hand held units , I personally would not recommend or use it at less than 50:1 in my equipment . # 3 Ultra was designed to be used only in Stihl's 4-mix engines , personally I personally would not use it in any 2 cycle engine lol . P.S. You missed the point within my original statement "Application" entails appropriate premium mineral oil for the application . E.g: using a premium grade Marine oil within a high performance air cooled engine would be inappropriate or a bad selection for an air cooled chainsaw application for example . P.SS. I have never utilized any Red line oil product , but have witnessed numerous complaints of its downside . Have though seen & heard numerous testimonials from very knowledgible people including engine builders, of the benefits & quality of Red Armor oil , when utilized as recommended !
I've never used it, but I don't see a serious issue with it (minus the cost) from the numerous testimonials (cept for spooge buildup in mufflers that's been reported) and pics everywhere. One thing about this oil that I don't think many are aware of is that there is an identical product that is blue instead of red called Maruyama Blue Shield, if you want the same oil in blue =) Look at the sds's, they're the same (or at least the Maruyama labeled version matches the original Red Armor that listed the Ester in the sds).Have though seen & heard numerous testimonials from very knowledgible people including engine builders, of the benefits & quality of Red Armour oil !
Apparently , the original Red Armor recipe has been altered , I believe within the last 9-12 mth . However the product is still highly recommended by numerous 2T engine builders & porters . The msds would indicate perhaps the actual changes within the chemical composition ? P.S. Also sponge deposits are also caused by improper tune , where insufficient heat within combustion causes the formation accordingly !
Ester oils will always be suboptimal for corrosion protection. Additives do not change this fact.
North likes Amsoil. I do not, if only because IMO the company isn't reputable. They use scam advertising with bogus tests and really their oils are nothing special.Certainly they are no better than oils made by the oil majors.
I wish I could.still get some MX2T/Mobil 2R. It was Superb oil
North likes Amsoil. I do not, if only because IMO the company isn't reputable. They use scam advertising with bogus tests and really their oils are nothing special.Certainly they are no better than oils made by the oil majors.
I wish I could.still get some MX2T/Mobil 2R. It was Superb oil
I am notnsure the formula changed. Ester does not need to be listed on a MSDS so not seeing it on a newer MSDS doesn't tell you definitively that the formulation changed. Just something to consider.
Ben , is correct in all three analogies !
Yeah , I remember your previous opinion on the msds , thus the ?
Here's some interesting technical info that I ran across along time ago. Basically there was a study done by Yamaha Motors showing that there is actually a detrimental effect of the PIB additive used in in most synthetic and semi-synthetic 2 cycle oils. It sates that PIB actually *increases* bearing wear specifically, (probably dependent on amount used), which may be an advantage for actual, true dino oils (like Castrol Garden 2t or Activ 2t) because there is no PIB in their formulations. Document is linked below as well as a quote by a former expert on this kind of thing.
https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?s=57ea394a3e15c78f1f2a527234d79501&t=79673&page=3
"Now remains the question of the PB (poly-butene) oils and additives which take care of the "D" part in ISO-L-EGD, and subsequent Jaso FD, and even the revived API spec. Having run two types of reputed quality "D" oil, I found that the cylinder walls show some kind of varnish-like discoloration, and that the rings do not seem to tough the metal smooth surface at all. The crosshatch from honing is 100% intact, except in the upper cylinder part where ring pressure are extremely high.
What also worries me is the reportedly higher needle bearing temperatures when using PB concocted oils. These oils cling like hell to any metal surface, and gasoline flows off without diluting the film, so film replenishment is due to suffer??? As image I enclose part of a Yamaha publication, showing lubricity of different oils. BLIX is the index. values >100 indicate cooler running bearings than the reference oil JATRE-1"
Study on Bearing Lubricity with
2-stroke Engine Oil
Hideaki Kawabe Mitsuaki Ishimaru
● Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd./ Nippon Oil Corporation
https://web.archive.org/web/2011062...ip/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf
Image excerpt from above:
https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/uploads/1/5/4/7/7/a533815-130-PB-BLIX1.jpg
https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?s=57ea394a3e15c78f1f2a527234d79501&t=79673&page=3
"Now remains the question of the PB (poly-butene) oils and additives which take care of the "D" part in ISO-L-EGD, and subsequent Jaso FD, and even the revived API spec. Having run two types of reputed quality "D" oil, I found that the cylinder walls show some kind of varnish-like discoloration, and that the rings do not seem to tough the metal smooth surface at all. The crosshatch from honing is 100% intact, except in the upper cylinder part where ring pressure are extremely high.
What also worries me is the reportedly higher needle bearing temperatures when using PB concocted oils. These oils cling like hell to any metal surface, and gasoline flows off without diluting the film, so film replenishment is due to suffer??? As image I enclose part of a Yamaha publication, showing lubricity of different oils. BLIX is the index. values >100 indicate cooler running bearings than the reference oil JATRE-1"
Study on Bearing Lubricity with
2-stroke Engine Oil
Hideaki Kawabe Mitsuaki Ishimaru
● Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd./ Nippon Oil Corporation
https://web.archive.org/web/2011062...ip/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf
Image excerpt from above:
https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/uploads/1/5/4/7/7/a533815-130-PB-BLIX1.jpg
and I thought I had the biggest stash of MX2T lol. guess not.
I sold it all years ago, (some of it to someone here) and had to give some away due to a move. Lately I've been experimenting with: https://www.essentialube.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/TDS-0058-HyFilm-Hy-Rev-2-Cycle-Oil.pdf
And I ordered that stuff you mentioned, the WP2, plus I'm going to try Castrol Garden 2T from the UK when it comes in, just because =)
I see some quarts of MX2T on ebay for 25-30.00 a qt. crazy.
I don’t know anything about msds sheets, but if interested, you might compare Castrol GO! to their Active or Garden 2T and see if they’re possibly the same but different names in other countries. GO is available the US and quite inexpensive
Tomos770
ArboristSite Guru
That's a very good question. Castrol Garden is cheap and plentiful here. And I've heard good things about Castrol Go.
coldfront1
ArboristSite Lurker
Use stihl oil only for these 4 mix engines or roll the dice on something else
Poor engineering design seen it previously in a Harley application where Timkin full roller bearings were replaced with cheap INA offshore plastic caged bearings on their camshaft applications . The plastic cage holding the bearings would heat up and break down over time & the needles would fall out within the cam chest & grenade the engine within a short period of time !
