Two-Stroke Oils: All the Same?

[bwalker]

Just had to keep it from swinging side to side for the 8 mile journey home. I'll NEVER haul it with that truck again, nor will I load it that way. I couldn't go over 20 mph because it was so friggin tail heavy. 





I was talking about the exhaust port. Of course every engine has carbon on the piston! That's like saying, "Water is WET".  When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil. That spooge will eventually choke off exhaust flow, turning as hard as a brick. Seen it a million times in everything from chainsaws to open-class 500cc motocross bikes.



1st pic, you can see the point where the prop passes the exhaust - this was 50:1 on Maxima. I had just switched to Saber, and hadn't cleaned the prop. On Maxima, black spooge oozed from EVERY part of that pipe! Made a friggin mess. 2nd pic is Saber at 66:1. Both with the same high / low mixture screw setting. After the Maxima burnt off, the pipe has remained super clean.











Just had to keep it from swinging side to side for the 8 mile journey home. I'll NEVER haul it with that truck again, nor will I load it that way. I couldn't go over 20 mph because it was so friggin tail heavy.


I was talking about the exhaust port. Of course every engine has carbon on the piston! That's like saying, "Water is WET". When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil. That spooge will eventually choke off exhaust flow, turning as hard as a brick. Seen it a million times in everything from chainsaws to open-class 500cc motocross bikes.

1st pic, you can see the point where the prop passes the exhaust - this was 50:1 on Maxima. I had just switched to Saber, and hadn't cleaned the prop. On Maxima, black spooge oozed from EVERY part of that pipe! Made a friggin mess. 2nd pic is Saber at 66:1. Both with the same high / low mixture screw setting. After the Maxima burnt off, the pipe has remained super clean.

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Spooge is a product of improper carb tuning in nearly every case. I can say for certain that maxima super M or K2 will not spooge at all when tuned right, even at 32:1.
The fact you noted less spooge with Saber was because you also decreased oil content.
BTW that's a nice rig. If I could get something like that that would haul 150 lbs in addition to my body weight I would be all over it for hunting land locked public land.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1

I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product.

I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my OPE. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

Smitty When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil.


Spooge problem = Jetting problem

Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.

Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.

I wish I had taken more pics of this. Pipe was DRIPPING, and you can see the black spot on the prop - that was after cleaning that off SEVERAL times - it would come back almost immediately. Only change was the oil, and ALL that mess was gone.

But, you're free to believe what you wish.

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1

I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product.

I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my ***. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.

Yep, Dominator is pretty dirty burning. I run it in my '74 RD350. Oil injected. I don't run Saber in that because I believe it's viscosity is too high for the injection pump to last, or function as designed.

The pics don't do it justice - those pipes are SOAKED.


And for the record, I spent DAYS jetting these carbs. They are as good as they can get, slightly on the rich side wide open, perfect at cruise.

 

[North by Northwest]

Yep, Dominator is pretty dirty burning. I run it in my '74 RD350. Oil injected. I don't run Saber in that because I believe it's viscosity is too high for the injection pump to last, or function as designed.

The pics don't do it justice - those pipes are SOAKED.


And for the record, I spent DAYS jetting these carbs. They are as good as they can get, slightly on the rich side wide open, perfect at cruise.

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Try Interceptor in your injector application , I think you will be pleasantly surprised !

 

[North by Northwest]

Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1

I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product.

I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my ***. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.

Dominator has to be run in a high temperature application & jetted correctly , along with a sharp tune . I ran it in my Air cooled Polaris 600 RXL Triple with excellent results . I tried it in my Polaris 850 RMK liquid cooled Twin a little dirty . Finally did a trial with my Polaris 700 SKS liquid twin which runs a little hottter & tuned tighter , it is satisfactory . P.S. I previously ran the Saber in the RXL & SKS as a Premix @ 50:1 also Interceptor as a Premix & Injector in all 3 sleds no problem . Today all my saws run either Saber or Dominator although I intend to start running Red Armor in my Commercial grade Huskys & Dolkitas & my Milling MS 660 along with the RXL & SKS .

 

[bwalker]

Dominator has to be run in a high temperature application & jetted correctly , along with a sharp tune . I ran it in my Air cooled Polaris 600 RXL Triple with excellent results . I tried it in my Polaris 850 RMK liquid cooled Twin a little dirty . Finally did a trial with my Polaris 700 SKS liquid twin which runs a little hotter & it is satisfactory . P.S. I previously ran the Saber in the RXL & SKS as a Premix @ 50:1 also Interceptor as a Premix & Injector in all 3 sleds no problem . Today all my saws run either Saber or Dominator although I intend to start running Red Armor in my Commercial grade Huskys & Dolkitas & my Milling MS 660 .

I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.

 

[bwalker]

Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.

Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.

I wish I had taken more pics of this. Pipe was DRIPPING, and you can see the black spot on the prop - that was after cleaning that off SEVERAL times - it would come back almost immediately. Only change was the oil, and ALL that mess was gone.

But, you're free to believe what you wish.

It's tuning and load that causes spooge... I've ran castor blend oils and had a perfectly dry exhaust..

 

[North by Northwest]

Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.

Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.

I wish I had taken more pics of this. Pipe was DRIPPING, and you can see the black spot on the prop - that was after cleaning that off SEVERAL times - it would come back almost immediately. Only change was the oil, and ALL that mess was gone.

But, you're free to believe what you wish.

Sponge in my applications is often due to a oil that is designed for higher operating temps than my application . I can tune very well & in some situations rejetting is not practical . Dominator requires severe service (load) or high temp usage to burn clean . That is why its not used in any of my homeowner saws . They get a diet of Saber @ 50:1 for over 10 yrs . Top end is clean & a nice shine on the bearings . P.S. I believe your higher elevation para - ultralite application likely causes a rich tune condition , that can contribute to your sponge condition concern ?

 

[North by Northwest]

It's tuning and load that causes spooge... I've ran castor blend oils and had a perfectly dry exhaust..

Dry exhaust perhaps with Techniplate , using R50 we always had carry over of carbon in the tuned pipes , although never a true spoonge concern in the air cooled or liquid cooled sled triples of the day . I agree with you Ben that tuning is the key & within cycles rejetting also is critical & very practical .

 

[North by Northwest]

I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.

Load factor & sufficient operating temperature are extremely important with Dominator in my experience , much more than Interceptor which is a lower viscosity oil .

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.

I didn’t have any issues of splooge on my engines running dominator, just dirty plugs. I agree with North by Northwest, I think it needs good constant load, a sharp tune and engines that are ran to their extreme. Saber seems more forgiving.

Edit, heat is an interesting one, because these air cooled engines will run much hotter than the liquid cooled bikes.

 

[North by Northwest]

I didn’t have any issues of splooge on my engines running dominator, just dirty plugs. I agree with North by Northwest, I think it needs good constant load, a sharp tune and engines that are ran to their extreme. Saber seems more forgiving.

Edit, heat is an interesting one, because these air cooled engines will run much hotter than the liquid cooled bikes.

Thanks brother . I have raced & wrenched sleds for over 30 yrs . My 3 Polaris sleds are fine examples of the technology changes of high performance snowmobiles over the last few decades . Its very interesting how they react to diverse oil usage within air cooled & liquid cooling . The compression & operating conditions (load) on all 3 are equivalent . Only the operating temperatures vary accordingly . The new RMK is satisfactory with Dominator , however just not as clean as I would like within the plug readings . It runs a lot in the deep powder @ higher elevations which may contribute to the less stellar coloration . I was going to run a little hotter plug to clarify , however warmer temps lately & snow conditions has made that a moot consideration lol . Anyhow , I know what I know with sleds , cycles & saws enough to not require Dealership assistance , however to a lesser degree

 

[jcquade]

I have a stihl ms251. In reading the posts I believe I can go 40:1 with echo red armour. I want to protect my piston that is why I am thinking of not going 50:1 as recommended by stihl. Am I on the right track?

 

[Chucksta]

When I first met my girlfriend, she would re fuel her weed eater, by pouring gas ( regular pump gas)), in the tank, and then grab a bottle of whatever the hell she had on the shelf in the garage, and add "glug, glug", to the weed eater tank, give it a shake, and then just go.
To say the least, as I have a rip roaring case of OCD when it comes as to what I fuel my stuff with, I just about spit my lunch out on her. "WTF are you doing?".. Her reply? I've been doing this for years!!
So, at the end of the day, her Homelite POS less than a hundred buck weed whacker, has survived for well over a decade with whatever stale gas she had left over from last year, and a "glug, glug", of whatever lubricant was sitting on a shelf in the garage.. 10W/30? 0W40? whatever, that Homelite POS, just ate it up and came back for more. Never took more than three pulls to start. I finally put a fresh plug into it for it's 15th anniversary. I've also fueled it with Amsoil and Ethanol free Premium since. She's not allowed to fuel small engines any more.
My own stuff? Well, let's just say that I'm not the best at maintenance. I ran a Landscaping company, and I bought Echo stuff. ( kicking bang for the buck) I beat the snot out of all the stuff I bought from the local Dealer. PAS 225 powerheads, and 355T saws, and a lot more gear, all the stuff to be a Landscaping company. And, I invested in a couple of old school LawnBoy mowers ( I love the smell of 2 stroke in the morning and "personal pace" rocks!).
So? What to run for fuel? Do I want to run 3 different cans of mix? Oh, hell no!!
What do I land up with?
Amsoil Saber.
As I employed idiots, I made fueling simple. 3 Liters of Ethanol free Premium fuel, Squeeze one packet of Saber into it, shaken twice, and fuel up. That gave me a mix ratio of about 70 to 1.. Amsoil Dealer said it'd be cheaper to buy bulk.. I said no way, the extra expense was worth it to make it idiot proof!! Idiots are way less per hour!!
Used that 70 to 1 mix in all the Echo stuff. Used it in the 32 to 1 ( recommended) LawnBoy stuff too.
Never worried about any mix ratio, or Manufacturers specs. Just ran the Saber at 70 to 1.
Sure .. it said that 100 to 1 was do-able... But why risk it? 70 to 1... no smoke, no exhaust fouling, plugs look great, starts great, great life expectancy.
Beat the living crap out of the gear. Never did any maintenance unless something wouldn't start, or run run right( and that virtually never happened).
I've got line trimmers with well over 500 hours on them that still rock. For what Amsoil costs, I think I'll stick with it.
It's also the only thing that goes in my boat (2 stroke premix).
I'd use it in my Skidoos, but I think I'll just stick to BRP full synthetic..

 

[WCarp]

I agree Smitty . I have used Amsoil Products since 2013 . I agree with Ben that they put out a lot of hype though . Although , I can't find better sourcing of product for the $ . I currently have 5 gallons of Red Armor I got for a very good batch price . I use Sabre in all my recreational saws , very good results for over 10 yrs . My Commercial grade have always ran Interceptor & more recently Dominator . I like the Red Armor , I just finished a trial with it in one of my old 650 race sleds , nice product for a vintage factory modified free air triple .

I am not aware of any evidence that Amsoil puts out hype.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I am not aware of any evidence that Amsoil puts out hype.

I saw documentation on a 300 hour strimmer test they conducted against Echo. There was no load on the engines, the test was poorly conducted and biased. They ran 100:1 echo at 50:1. Of course, no load and a lot of part throttle will mean more carbon production on a higher oil ratio engine. I love Saber, I don’t like Amsoils marketing or as a company.

Just like Milwaukee, I love my Milwaukee m12 tools, I hate Milwaukees marketing, fake, biased tests and the company itself for it.

Example of Milwaukee, you tell me if this is fair?

 

[rambo2_981]

HELL NO 40:1 seems to be working good.

Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?

“Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”

 

[North by Northwest]

I have a stihl ms251. In reading the posts I believe I can go 40:1 with echo red armour. I want to protect my piston that is why I am thinking of not going 50:1 as recommended by stihl. Am I on the right track?

With what my evaluations have indicated & what I have seen within some very well tuned saws from a few engine builders 40:1 or 50:1 would be more than adequate for any saw usage other than dedicated milling application. !

 

[North by Northwest]

Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?

“Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”

I love Saber , however if you seriously believe that hype , I have some property for sale you may be interested in ? However , to be serious clean with 50% less oil may be accurate , however protection to bearings has nothing to do with cleanliness . As far as Stihl , if its Stihl Ultra vs Saber no comparison within efficiency of protection or being clean burning . Ultra has to be the dirtiest oil I have ever witnessed with a saw , that's including some castor's brother. !