UTAH Wood Burning Ban

[pennsywoodburnr]

How long until people figure out that their part of North America is not the whole globe?

View attachment 392631

Chris-PA, something about that map you provided just looks messed up. I know it's meant to show temp differences and all against the averages for like the last, what, 20...maybe 30 years?



There's this -30+ below average cold air being funneled into the mid west and northeast by, what, a jet stream that's considered normal or even above normal for this time of year? I can understand the tropics being so warm with them being on the equator and all. But I thought in order to have below average temps being fed in by a jet stream, you'd have to have well below average temps further north fueling that cold air, but from the looks of that map, that doesn't look possible, unless I'm missing something here? I think a lot of the people on here can get behind the climate change thing, as that's been happening since the earth was formed (and probably with a lot more dramatic upheavals) than we could imagine. I think what gets these guys pizzed off the most when they hear *global warming*, and later when it became *advanced global warming*, but the brainwashers in power couldn't get people behind the "advanced" part, so instead they just call it *climate change* now, because it's a broad brush stroke that can explain everything that's been happening on the earth since day 1. So now we've got guys like Al Gore telling us not to so much as fart, because the polar bear will have to swim an extra 20 miles to find the next nearest chunk of ice to sit on while hooking a seal out of the water for food, all the while ferrying himself on his own private jet to his next appearance where he'll get a nice chunk of money to pay for another multi-million dollar mansion. Add to that he seems to be passing the torch to Al Gore junior now, oops, I meant Leonardo DiCaprio, who also ferries himself out to appearances via private jet to add another mansion to his roster, and you can start seeing why guys on here don't wanna hear about it. Don't get me wrong man, I know climate change is real. I just don't think we have nearly as devastating an impact on it as these clowns would have us believe. Hopefully I didn't get anyone too riled up with my rant. If so, I apologize in advance.

 

[Old Goat]

Toisanswer your question, yes

But on a serious note, where is your outrage on this issue? Yes, we understand your air quality issues. In the Treasure Valley where I live, we have inversions every year and they suck. They've been around longer than the white man. Inversions are part of living out west and yes, we all should do our part when it comes to air quality.

Lotsis of wood burners in Utahsenate androidg you will turn a deaf ear to this issue because it's somebody elspossibleproblem. It will only affect a neighboring county, no bIg deal. If this is allowed, you have to know it is only a matter of time before it comes to your county. If you don't stand and fight for them, do you think they will be there for you when your time comif yos?

Your leaders in Utah are either extremely ignorant or they are extremely corrupt...or both. So I respectfully ask you again, where is your outrage?

Ok, because this thread is about Utah I will state that the govenor of Utah does not have as much power as govenors of other states and he does not have the ability to write executive orders like the president of the United States. About all he can do is veto bills that have passed the state senate and house. Utah's legistlature is part time and the session is only 45 days per year and will start here in a couple of weeks, thus the dog and pony shows are starting. Because of the short session they try hard to cram as much in as possible. Many bills never see the light of day and do not make it out of committee. The legislators pushing this stuff are a small handful of liberal polititions. Of the 29 counties most are rural, farming communities and will fight this. A call to my state senator and state rep has far more impact than a call to the govenors office. I have both of my reps on speed dial and talk to them at least once if not more per session. The only reason to call the govenors office is to request he veto a passed bill if per chance one gets passed.

This is more about trying to keep one step a head of the feds and EPA. It has to appear as if the state is being proactive. My fear and the cause of my momentary panic attack is that the feds have stepped in and are going to force a total wood burning ban. As I stated before, if everything that causes pollution in the effected counties was shut down and removed the air would still be unhealthy this time of year. It is a design flaw by mother nature. When we lived there you could still burn on the "red burn" days if your emissions were not visible and we would burn a hot fire.

Where is my outrage?

The number one polluter in the United States is a company that is currently calling themselves "US Magnesium. They have gone by different names over the years such as MagCorp and Amax. The change in name is a PR stunt to help in damage control. They are located on the west side of the Great Salt Lake in the middle of nowhere. They are the largest source of magnesium in the US and because magnesium is a critical metal and vital for our strategic defence the federal government does nothing about the pollution. It turns a blind eye. When the winds are just right and out of the south even Idaho's "Treasure Valley" gets to have some of US Mags byproducts.

Where is my outrage?

With a single signature Bill Clinton was able to lock up the largest reserve of the cleanest of the clean coal in the world when he created the "Grand staircase-Escalante National Monument" in southern Utah. Not far from there the Glen Canyon dam on Lake Powell had to reduce its hydro power output as a result of enviromentalists winning a lawsuit. Lost Vegas and California still wanted all of the electricity they can get their hands on so the Navaho power plant stepped up to make up the difference. Because the Navaho power plant is a coal fired plant the pollution levels increased over the Grand Canyon. Enviromentalists were not happy about that either. Just a stones throw across the Arizona / Utah state line is all of this cleaner coal that now can't be touched.

Where is my outrage?

Why do all of the states that have nuclear power plants think 100 miles to the west of me in Utah's west desert (which is also 100 miles south of your "Treasur Valley") Is the perfect place to store their spent fuel rods. This is an ongoing fight. If you want so called cheap energy from nuclear power than keep your waste in your own backyard, store it on-site or don't create it in the first place.

I can keep going on and on if you would like me to.

I'm also outraged that someone else found my secret wood cutting area. It is on forest service land up on the mountains next to where I live.

 

[Chris-PA]

Chris-PA, something about that map you provided just looks messed up. I know it's meant to show temp differences and all against the averages for like the last, what, 20...maybe 30 years?

View attachment 392875

There's this -30+ below average cold air being funneled into the mid west and northeast by, what, a jet stream that's considered normal or even above normal for this time of year? I can understand the tropics being so warm with them being on the equator and all. But I thought in order to have below average temps being fed in by a jet stream, you'd have to have well below average temps further north fueling that cold air, but from the looks of that map, that doesn't look possible, unless I'm missing something here? I think a lot of the people on here can get behind the climate change thing, as that's been happening since the earth was formed (and probably with a lot more dramatic upheavals) than we could imagine. I think what gets these guys pizzed off the most when they hear *global warming*, and later when it became *advanced global warming*, but the brainwashers in power couldn't get people behind the "advanced" part, so instead they just call it *climate change* now, because it's a broad brush stroke that can explain everything that's been happening on the earth since day 1. So now we've got guys like Al Gore telling us not to so much as fart, because the polar bear will have to swim an extra 20 miles to find the next nearest chunk of ice to sit on while hooking a seal out of the water for food, all the while ferrying himself on his own private jet to his next appearance where he'll get a nice chunk of money to pay for another multi-million dollar mansion. Add to that he seems to be passing the torch to Al Gore junior now, oops, I meant Leonardo DiCaprio, who also ferries himself out to appearances via private jet to add another mansion to his roster, and you can start seeing why guys on here don't wanna hear about it. Don't get me wrong man, I know climate change is real. I just don't think we have nearly as devastating an impact on it as these clowns would have us believe. Hopefully I didn't get anyone too riled up with my rant. If so, I apologize in advance.

The map shows deviations from an average baseline, and my point in posting it was to show that while it may be much colder than normal in some area, it warmer than normal elsewhere. Just like during last winter's "polar vortex" much of Alaska was 40deg.

Setting aside the cause for now, it is quite clear the global temperatures are rising, and that the poles are warming fastest of all. This reduces the temperature difference between the poles and mid latitudes, which reduces the steering currents and allows big loops in the jet streams, and sometimes these stay in place for surprisingly long times. In some places (like seems to be happening in NA), this lets still really cold air flood down to the south. But that isn't happening everywhere.

More relevant to this thread, the western parts of NA have always had a bit of an unstable climate, with long periods of drought being common. We happened to settle these areas during a time of unusually high rainfall and milder temperatures, and then had the huge windfall of fossil fuel energy to exploit. It appears that a warming global temperature will bring less rain and more temperature change to those regions, making them much more difficult places to live, just as our access to cheap energy is failing.

So you see all sorts of absurdities as people try to avoid dealing with a new reality they are unprepared for, and cling to a set of assumptions about the future they expected but is slipping away. The solutions that used to work are no longer effective. So the EPA focuses on particulates and misses the bigger issue of CO2, and everyone still assumes that fossil fuels are a solution and will always be available (let's ban stoves and use clean NG). And on top of what are very real problems, everywhere you look some scammer is exploiting the situation, which makes people think there is no problem and it's all just a fraud - when in fact the con men are always there and thrive when real problems happen.

 

[Old Goat]

The map shows deviations from an average baseline, and my point in posting it was to show that while it may be much colder than normal in some area, it warmer than normal elsewhere. Just like during last winter's "polar vortex" much of Alaska was 40deg.

Setting aside the cause for now, it is quite clear the global temperatures are rising, and that the poles are warming fastest of all. This reduces the temperature difference between the poles and mid latitudes, which reduces the steering currents and allows big loops in the jet streams, and sometimes these stay in place for surprisingly long times. In some places (like seems to be happening in NA), this lets still really cold air flood down to the south. But that isn't happening everywhere.

More relevant to this thread, the western parts of NA have always had a bit of an unstable climate, with long periods of drought being common. We happened to settle these areas during a time of unusually high rainfall and milder temperatures, and then had the huge windfall of fossil fuel energy to exploit. It appears that a warming global temperature will bring less rain and more temperature change to those regions, making them much more difficult places to live, just as our access to cheap energy is failing.

So you see all sorts of absurdities as people try to avoid dealing with a new reality they are unprepared for, and cling to a set of assumptions about the future they expected but is slipping away. The solutions that used to work are no longer effective. So the EPA focuses on particulates and misses the bigger issue of CO2, and everyone still assumes that fossil fuels are a solution and will always be available (let's ban stoves and use clean NG). And on top of what are very real problems, everywhere you look some scammer is exploiting the situation, which makes people think there is no problem and it's all just a fraud - when in fact the con men are always there and thrive when real problems happen.

Chris, it is really hard for people to grasp what you are saying when oil is below $50 a barrel and falling. I paid $1.87 per gallon of gas on Monday and the price is still going down.

We were suppose to be out of oil by now according to thr "peak oil" naysayers of 20 years ago. We are just the opposite. Global warming turned to global climate change because the warming part was hard to support and the original data was a fraud. Some claim we are heading into an ice age.

The biggest producer of co2 is all of the oceans combined. Each major volcano eruption gives off more green house gasses, cfcs, etc. then man has ever produced.

When Utah was settled it was not the middle of a rainy season. The droughts and heavey water year cycles were well documented in the early settlers journals. Remember this thread is about Utah.

Like I said it is hard to believe the constant changing "the sky is falling" Al Gore hype.

 

[Chris-PA]

We were suppose to be out of oil by now according to thr "peak oil" naysayers of 20 years ago. We are just the opposite.

That was never what peak oil meant - it's about the peak rate of production, which the US hit in the early 1970's and have never come close to since. We'll never be out of oil. Rather, we will never be able to afford to extract the most expensive to get stuff, so it will stay in the ground. There is a reason we are presently going after oil and gas miles under the sea floor and with these incredibly expensive fracking operations, and it's not because we have easier to access stuff. It's because it's all we have left. How is it that people see this as a hopeful sign?

Enjoy the lower prices for that fuel - the companies that produced it are going bankrupt, and the banks that gave them the credit to extract it are never going to be paid back. It was sold at prices below what it cost to extract, because it was all a financial scam much like housing bubble. The game is up and it looks like 2015 will be 2008 only worse, and we will be made to pay those loans back just like before.

When Utah was settled it was not the middle of a rainy season. The droughts and heavey water year cycles were well documented in the early settlers journals. Remember this thread is about Utah.

I was really discussing the period where the population increased in more recent times. The entire Colorado River system water estimates were based on water flow data from an unusually wet period, in a region that regularly undergoes droughts that last for hundreds of years.

 

[zogger]

The peak oil deal is much easier to understand if anyone "you" stops thinking in terms of money/currency units, and think of it as energy in to get energy out.

Chris is right, Hubbert was right.

Back in the dsay when they could randomly stick in a shallow well and get a bonafide gusher..that was cheap oil. Really dang cheap, BOTH in terms of energy in to energy out and dollars in to dollars out. 20th century second industrial revolution was based on that.

Those are the olden days.

If we fail to use the last dregs of "cheap" oil to transition to another energy source that is better/cleaner and safer, that's it, party's over. Frittering it away like we do now and have been doing for the last several decades is going to look-to future historians-as one of the most boneheaded moves mankind has ever done.

You got an extra around 3 billion people now who are getting a taste of what western styled "middle class" life is all about it, and they want it.

Enjoy the cheap at the pump fuel now. Next generation, the babies crawling around today, will never see it.

 

[olyman]

where in my comment does it say anything about my local weather???



how can you determine whats normal when research only covers less then .000002% of total years earth has been around?? you can call it what you want but ANY "research" is just observation until there is enough data to determine a pattern...likely humans will never be around long enough to determine earth's natural pattern!
I'm not saying the temps have not changed, I'm saying how can anyone determine that this is not a "normal" natural pattern earth goes through! nothing is constant, earth has already gone through far more drastic changes than humans will likely ever see, all of which happened before man kind.
I just don't believe there's enough data to determine the cause of the warmer temps... perhaps a chart with average temps over the past 4.6 billion years would convince me...got one of those on hand do you??, no? then its just observation!

 

[mga]

How long until people figure out that their part of North America is not the whole globe?

View attachment 392631

so, did you stop burning wood yourself?

 

[ijon1]

Good intelligent conversation.

 

[Chris-PA]

so, did you stop burning wood yourself?

Why don't you say what you mean rather than trying to be clever? Why would I stop burning wood?

 

[Idahonative]

Old Goat, you say this is being pushed by a handful of liberal politicians and your Governor has little to do with it. You might want to read this article from the Salt Lake Tribune:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2022244-155/utah-seeks-comments-on-governors-proposed

Read that and I will ask you again, where is your outrage? And I don't mean outrage about everything under the sun that DOES NOT relate to this thread. I mean where is your outrage, as a Utah wood burning resident, that your Governor wants to eliminate an entire industry in seven counties and hurt tens of thousands of hard working people? All because, when the air quality is really bad, wood smoke may contribute to 5% of the particulate matter. No talking about current wood stove technology. Your Governor wants wood burners shut down. I'm outraged and I don't even live there.

 

[Old Goat]

Old Goat, you say this is being pushed by a handful of liberal politicians and your Governor has little to do with it. You might want to read this article from the Salt Lake Tribune:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2022244-155/utah-seeks-comments-on-governors-proposed

Read that and I will ask you again, where is your outrage? And I don't mean outrage about everything under the sun that DOES NOT relate to this thread. I mean where is your outrage, as a Utah wood burning resident, that your Governor wants to eliminate an entire industry in seven counties and hurt tens of thousands of hard working people? All because, when the air quality is really bad, wood smoke may contribute to 5% of the particulate matter. No talking about current wood stove technology. Your Governor wants wood burners shut down. I'm outraged and I don't even live there.

Air quality on the Wasatch front has everything to do with this tread. That is why my first outrage was about US Magnesium. It is the largest polluter in the US and all of its crap makes its way over the lake and into the air over Salt Lake AND NOTHING IS EVER DONE ABOUT IT. The EPA will fine them every now and then , but that is just part of the cost of them doing business.
What exactly do you want me to do? You have told me that I don't care because I don't live in one of the affected counties. Why do you think that?
The governor can not force this to happen. He can focus attention to what he wants the legislature to do, but he can not make a law out of thin air. If a bill does not make it out of comittee it will never become law. If it does than it has to pass both in the House and Senate. I will talk to both of my reps if a bill is even drafted this year and makes it out of comittee.
But what exactly do you want me to do? What should my outrage look like? You say that you are outraged, What are you going to do about it?
As more and more people move into that area the conditions are only going to get worse. I moved my family out of there for several reasons and heating my house with wood was not the main reason, but it was on the list.
The link you posted was from the Salt Lake Tribune. It's a liberal rag. The Deseret News is a better paper, but not by much, but they both work well for starting a fire .

 

[pennsywoodburnr]

The map shows deviations from an average baseline, and my point in posting it was to show that while it may be much colder than normal in some area, it warmer than normal elsewhere. Just like during last winter's "polar vortex" much of Alaska was 40deg.

Setting aside the cause for now, it is quite clear the global temperatures are rising, and that the poles are warming fastest of all. This reduces the temperature difference between the poles and mid latitudes, which reduces the steering currents and allows big loops in the jet streams, and sometimes these stay in place for surprisingly long times. In some places (like seems to be happening in NA), this lets still really cold air flood down to the south. But that isn't happening everywhere.

More relevant to this thread, the western parts of NA have always had a bit of an unstable climate, with long periods of drought being common. We happened to settle these areas during a time of unusually high rainfall and milder temperatures, and then had the huge windfall of fossil fuel energy to exploit. It appears that a warming global temperature will bring less rain and more temperature change to those regions, making them much more difficult places to live, just as our access to cheap energy is failing.

So you see all sorts of absurdities as people try to avoid dealing with a new reality they are unprepared for, and cling to a set of assumptions about the future they expected but is slipping away. The solutions that used to work are no longer effective. So the EPA focuses on particulates and misses the bigger issue of CO2, and everyone still assumes that fossil fuels are a solution and will always be available (let's ban stoves and use clean NG). And on top of what are very real problems, everywhere you look some scammer is exploiting the situation, which makes people think there is no problem and it's all just a fraud - when in fact the con men are always there and thrive when real problems happen.

Wasn't there a report on the poles last year or the year before that showed them increasing their ice footprint instead of decreasing like everyone thought? I vaguely remember reading something about this. Also, remember the article about the research vessel that went to go investigate the decrease in the ice level in one of the poles, only to get trapped miles outside of their destination because, *ahem* they didn't think the ice had expanded that much further into the ocean than what their data originally said? LOL. That other part in your reply that I highlighted reminded me of the news article I read where farmers were scuttling entire crops of fruit trees and nut bearing trees because they couldn't get the water they needed to keep them going until harvest time. Now they've got mudslides out there from the rain. I'm wondering how long the population can last with water being so scarce out there? The reservoirs are so overtaxed they said it'll take years for the rain to resupply the aquifers, and that's if everyone stops using it for years to boot! Damn.....I need to start prepping!

 

[pennsywoodburnr]

The link you posted was from the Salt Lake Tribune. It's a liberal rag. The Deseret News is a better paper, but not by much, but they both work well for starting a fire .

Hilarious

 

[Chris-PA]

Wasn't there a report on the poles last year or the year before that showed them increasing their ice footprint instead of decreasing like everyone thought? I vaguely remember reading something about this. Also, remember the article about the research vessel that went to go investigate the decrease in the ice level in one of the poles, only to get trapped miles outside of their destination because, *ahem* they didn't think the ice had expanded that much further into the ocean than what their data originally said? LOL. That other part in your reply that I highlighted reminded me of the news article I read where farmers were scuttling entire crops of fruit trees and nut bearing trees because they couldn't get the water they needed to keep them going until harvest time. Now they've got mudslides out there from the rain. I'm wondering how long the population can last with water being so scarce out there? The reservoirs are so overtaxed they said it'll take years for the rain to resupply the aquifers, and that's if everyone stops using it for years to boot! Damn.....I need to start prepping!

Well, the map I posted was temperature deviation from average, not ice extent or volume.

As for the western drought, it's going to take more than that one storm system to make up the deficit:



"Aside from a few small improvements in Arizona, the Southwestern storm of late-December 2014 and early-January 2015 did not provide enough moisture to dent long-term drought."
( http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/ ).

 

[PULLINmyPOULAN]

Everything this system of government is pushing is Created and controlled by the government in one form or another.

 

[slowp]

Everything this system of government is pushing is Created and controlled by the government in one form or another.

Explain please. That's a little bit confusing.

It's Utah. I don't really care what is going on there, I don't vote there, I don't live there, I'm not downwind of there. I'll leave it to the locals. All they have to do is vote in somebody else, if enough of them care. The government starts with us, because we vote our representatives in. See, I can explain my clever saying.

Wood burners are a minority. Very few of us really have to burn wood. I could go to my electric heat easily. You folks who live in the spendier fuel places could go without a chainsaw or gun and spend that on heat, if it got right down to it.

We're pretty lucky to not totally depend on wood for heat. It would be a smoky, barren world if everybody did. Why? Because our population has boomed and our forests would be stripped clean if firewood was the only fuel to use. The problem is, population density. As Chris has said, many places in the west cannot support the population that has settled there--water is precious, and the topography creates inversions. So all you newcomers, move back east. Don't move here.

 

[PULLINmyPOULAN]

Explain please. That's a little bit confusing.

It's Utah. I don't really care what is going on there, I don't vote there, I don't live there, I'm not downwind of there. I'll leave it to the locals. All they have to do is vote in somebody else, if enough of them care. The government starts with us, because we vote our representatives in. See, I can explain my clever saying.

Wood burners are a minority. Very few of us really have to burn wood. I could go to my electric heat easily. You folks who live in the spendier fuel places could go without a chainsaw or gun and spend that on heat, if it got right down to it.

We're pretty lucky to not totally depend on wood for heat. It would be a smoky, barren world if everybody did. Why? Because our population has boomed and our forests would be stripped clean if firewood was the only fuel to use. The problem is, population density. As Chris has said, many places in the west cannot support the population that has settled there--water is precious, and the topography creates inversions. So all you newcomers, move back east. Don't move here.

My opinions are not neccassary or required and neither are yours.

 

[Idahonative]

Old Goat: "The link you posted was from the Salt Lake Tribune. It's a liberal rag. The Deseret News is a better paper, but not by much, but they both work well for starting a fire."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok, let's go to The Deseret News:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-input-on-proposed-wood-smoke-ban.html?pg=all

Did The Salt Lake Tribune get this from The Deseret News:

"Any ban would not be implemented until the start of the 2105 inversion season on Nov. 1 and is under consideration by the board at the request of Utah Gov. Gary Herbert.

"We have to tip our hats to him," said Brian Moench, president of the Utah Physicians for a Healthy Environment. "We were not sure if he would press forward with this."

So I ask you again...oh never mind. I can see I'm wasting my time here.

 

[slowp]

My opinions are not neccassary or required and neither are yours.

And apparently you are unable to express yourself except for using such meaningful quotes.

Back to the ban, is that a typo? 2105 instead of 2015? That was in the Deseret item.