wage vs experience

[mpatch]

I was doing the bucket work for my little biz for the first half of last summer, and soon found out that it was counterproductive to be a "working manager" by being locked onto a jobsite. Around here people want estimates asap, and want to hire asap. So if I get a call, I have to leave, and try an win work. I can't commit to being on the sight all day, not an option.

You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.

 

[TreeClimber57]

You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.

:agree2:

 

[Blakesmaster]

no I wouldnt consider myself the best or top notch, only been doing this for 3 years. and like I said I bought my own gear before the start of the 3rd year after using a saddle that didnt fit me for 2 years. I use a small but was using a medium.

And Blakemaster how many climbers did you work with? I did atleast 50% of the climbing for 2years because it was just me and the foreman climbing. the way the company worked was I drove to the jobs, did the work (climbing or bucket) then did the cleanup. we had a ground man the second year, he didnt get call back because he didnt want to climb.

to clear things up the guy that told me 4 to 1000 a day, that was contract or side jobs.

like I said I saw on this site that someone posted. experienced climbers 2and a half years+ make 25-40 an hour. the high would be for foremans

I was the only climber with the company. 4 guys on the ground, 2 of them owners who were not always there. Occasionally the younger owner would strap on spikes if we had a bunch of easy trees to climb. But only 1/3rd of the jobs were climbers. Usually we could get the bucket to the tree.

Sounds like a goofy setup that your boss wants everyone to climb. Brush draggers and wood humpers are a dime a dozen and real production necessitates that they are dragging and humping in order to keep the climber moving. The climber is the money maker and he needs to be climbing as much as possible, not cleaning up after himself. I think a bit of disorganization in the company is contributing to the fact you aren't making the big bucks.

Say you have a $1000 job and you're worth 30 an hour. Why would the boss pay you to climb for 4 hours in the morning and clean up for 4 hours in the afternoon? He could just hire a ground man at 15 an hour to clean up as you go. You're then finishing that $1000 job in the morning and can move on to the next $1000 job in the afternoon. Only problem with this is you need the work to be there, hence the bigger company.

 

[ducaticorse]

You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.

100 percent agreed. I am the sales/finance/equipment/employee/site manager right now, as most of "US" are. I'm trying now to get a good crew put together, and marketing to support adding a second line truck to go out. I'm looking to get this going by spring of 2013. in order to achieve this, I cannot be on the site 100 percent of the time, just not gonna happen. I get by, and am able to make some reinvestment now, but obviously not as much as I'd like. In due time hopefully...

 

[mpatch]

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.

 

[TreeClimber57]

If u have 2 or 3 years and your good or even really good then you "should" be making 17/18 an hour. Thats on the books money. WC is paid,unemployment, ect....I am sure its different in other parts of the country but for where u r at in experiance and geographic then personally I think you have fallen pray to some BS.

I tend to agree. And by the time $18 is paid with all the WC, UI, etc as you stated it is up to the $25 range. Maybe more in some areas depending on overhead.. That is managable.. to make $40-50 an hour and then overhead which pushes that to $55-65 range.. just won't get any work at those rates.

So do you want to make $40/hr (on paper) and sit at home waiting for work.. or $17-18/hr and actually do something.

In fact.. after expenses.. find me an owner who is making consistantly year round.. $400-1000/day in their take home salary.

If there is one.. he might be the only one in North America. Figuring maybe 200 days a year.. Pick middle of road between the two and you get $700/day. that is $140,000/year.

 

[TreeClimber57]

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.

:agree2:

I doubt there are many manking more than $25/hr..

 

[BCbound]

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.

Geography seems to play a big role in pay. The yankees WCB is crazy and I can understand it's hard to give out good wages. But the money is out there for the right guy. I worked for two very good/small companies that where legit. I left those companies to go out on my own. I left those two companies making 30/hour and they offered incentives to stay. It was just time to do my own thing.

The right guy can run the show. Is a CA and has his own basic equipment(saddle/ppe/spurs/odds and ends). Professional at the site and doesn't wreck crap. Basically he's the equivelent of a journeyman. So what does a journeyman get paid in your area?

If you can be this person you deserve good money. Represent the industry in a good manner and it will work out for everone. The tree industry has a terrible rep and I believe that reflects on getting good pay.

As for the contract climbing money, those big dollars are out there. I've made them. But, like someone said it is exteremly inconsistant. Plus if you are a legit contract climber you have a few other bills to think about. Guys call me to climb because I have my own WCB, liablity insurance, climbing and rigging gear to get 95% of the jobs done and my own fuel and transport. Minus all that crap off the day and the pay starts to drop. Plus if you do that $1000 day(which I've had a few) your most likely wrecked and need the next day or two off. It's not sustainable. The $500 a day is more common, still extemely unrelaible and the phone only rings for about a 4 month period for that kind of work(1-3days a week). That doesn't add up to a lot of chedder in the long run.

 

[lxt]

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.

I agree, I just posted a job on the ISA site for a climber/aerial lift operator....starting wage is 18hr, I have a guy I pay much more than that closer to $28..........but he`s not getting any younger & I need someone I can trust to run the show......he`s it! Ill be selling the jobs now & doing all the office work & biz stuff............I will miss being in the field.

BUT......you never know in this economy, I might not be able to grow how I want & may end up full time back in the field???? but $30 - $40 an hour here is unheard of for a legit company!!!!!!



LXT..............

 

[mpatch]

I agree, I just posted a job on the ISA site for a climber/aerial lift operator....starting wage is 18hr, I have a guy I pay much more than that closer to $28..........but he`s not getting any younger & I need someone I can trust to run the show......he`s it! Ill be selling the jobs now & doing all the office work & biz stuff............I will miss being in the field.

BUT......you never know in this economy, I might not be able to grow how I want & may end up full time back in the field???? but $30 - $40 an hour here is unheard of for a legit company!!!!!!



LXT..............

After a certain wage that person no longer can be considered "production level" because of what their job description is. Supervisors, managers etc. can get paid pretty well,over 100k per year but they aren't in the field and are almost always salaried positions.

 

[TreeClimber57]

To bring a bit of reality to the subject...

Ok.. Just pulled these REAL ads from our local ISA website.. so we are not talking BS here.. these are really what folks get and what is the pay. Note: driver licenses are Canadian .. so some of you won't recgonize.
D is to drive a truck - towing no more than a 10,000 lb trailer - Z is the air brake portion. G is a vehicle with trailer and truck combined to not exceed 10,000 lbs.

Climbing Arborist
• Minimum 3 years experience in safe and proper pruning and removals
• Clean driver’s record with a current G or DZ licence
• Current First Aid certificate, Fall arrest, chainsaw certificate, EUSA
• Wage of $18 + per hour based on qualifications.

Foreperson / Arborist
• Minimum of 5 years experience in a leadership role as a climbing arborist and foreperson
• Clean driver’s record with a current DZ licence
• Qualified and certified arborist
• Current First Aid certificate, Fall arrest, chainsaw certificate, EUSA
• Wage of $25-$30 per hour based on qualifications

So there you go.. and fits in with what most were saying here I think..

 

[beowulf343]

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.

Prepare to be surprised-i do, and don't work the city.

 

[mpatch]

Prepare to be surprised-i do, and don't work the city.

Is it a family business, dad/uncle/brother etc. owns it? Are you in the field everyday doing production work or do you have more of supervisor type job? Year round work with any benefits? How long with the company? I am very curious. If you have benefits what are they? IM me if you are not wanting this info public

 

[beowulf343]

Is it a family business, dad/uncle/brother etc. owns it? Are you in the field everyday doing production work or do you have more of supervisor type job? Year round work with any benefits? How long with the company? I am very curious. If you have benefits what are they? IM me if you are not wanting this info public

It's not my family's business. It's a second generation tree company that's been around for 35 years now. No one at the outfit is related to me. The main office is in the same county i grew up in.

Yep, in the field, up the tree every single work day. Fifty to sixty hours a week, year around (we do work in snow and cold.) I'm not a businessman, was first in line for the family business and let my brother have it-i don't want to be stuck indoors at a desk or dealing with customers every day. I want to climb trees, so that's what i do. I do run a minimum five man crew, with close to a million dollars worth of equipment. But there is little paperwork or hassle since my crew are long time employees, i, personally, just put trees on the ground all day long.

We work trees year around, and my crew does NO make work (plowing, mowing, spraying, etc.) Full benefits, wouldn't be with the outfit if i didn't have them-can go down the road to asplundh and get full union benefits. Medical, dental, eyeglass, prescription, chiropractor (money saver for me), 401k, and i've got seniority enough for four weeks paid vacation and one week paid sick time.

I started with this company in 1999. Was a tramp climber at the time, answered an ad in the pennysaver. Their top removal/crane climber was going to retire and they wanted to find a replacement early. I actually worked with the guy who was retiring for almost two years then took over the crew. Been with them ever since except for a year and a half leave of absence to learn some new climbing skills out west.

 

[mpatch]

It's not my family's business. It's a second generation tree company that's been around for 35 years now. No one at the outfit is related to me. The main office is in the same county i grew up in.

Yep, in the field, up the tree every single work day. Fifty to sixty hours a week, year around (we do work in snow and cold.) I'm not a businessman, was first in line for the family business and let my brother have it-i don't want to be stuck indoors at a desk or dealing with customers every day. I want to climb trees, so that's what i do. I do run a minimum five man crew, with close to a million dollars worth of equipment. But there is little paperwork or hassle since my crew are long time employees, i, personally, just put trees on the ground all day long.

We work trees year around, and my crew does NO make work (plowing, mowing, spraying, etc.) Full benefits, wouldn't be with the outfit if i didn't have them-can go down the road to asplundh and get full union benefits. Medical, dental, eyeglass, prescription, chiropractor (money saver for me), 401k, and i've got seniority enough for four weeks paid vacation and one week paid sick time.

I started with this company in 1999. Was a tramp climber at the time, answered an ad in the pennysaver. Their top removal/crane climber was going to retire and they wanted to find a replacement early. I actually worked with the guy who was retiring for almost two years then took over the crew. Been with them ever since except for a year and a half leave of absence to learn some new climbing skills out west.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal, wish I had that much PTO.

 

[beowulf343]

Not trying to offend you with the following at all mpatch. Was looking back at your previous posts since i didn't recognize your name right off the bat. Noticed your post about your crane guy who has done 600+ crane removals in the last couple years.
My crew averages a little over 100 crane removals a week. That's why my boss feels he can afford to pay me what he does.

 

[mpatch]

Not trying to offend you with the following at all mpatch. Was looking back at your previous posts since i didn't recognize your name right off the bat. Noticed your post about your crane guy who has done 600+ crane removals in the last couple years.
My crew averages a little over 100 crane removals a week. That's why my boss feels he can afford to pay me what he does.

I'm guessing the company you work for owns a crane. The work we do out here is vastly different than back east. I trim at least 10 trees to everyone one I remove. When I was working back east it was the complete opposite. The part of Colorado I am in there aren't very many trees. Since we dont do very many large removals we contract a crane. How can you pick 20 trees in a day? I takes at least 30-40 minutes to set up/take down a crane. Are you picking little <20" DBH trees all day long?

 

[lxt]

100 crane removals a week????? a 100.......? either you are doing multiple picks at one job or using that crane for anything & everything!!!!

there is a guy here who subs out to tree care companies exclusively...he told me when I hired him........"im busy as hell, 2- 3 jobs a day" mind you I had to schedule around him he was so busy!! monster oak (dead) I know what is involved in using a crane!

just port to job & set up will take time......so if you work 50 hours a week you`re telling me your crane operator is doing 2 picks an hour....or 2 jobs an hour & thats with no break, no pre or post trip & no travel time....? Beo...I love ya man but 100 crane picks a wk is total BS!!!



LXT.............

 

[JohnH]

100 crane removals a week????? a 100.......? either you are doing multiple picks at one job or using that crane for anything & everything!!!!

there is a guy here who subs out to tree care companies exclusively...he told me when I hired him........"im busy as hell, 2- 3 jobs a day" mind you I had to schedule around him he was so busy!! monster oak (dead) I know what is involved in using a crane!

just port to job & set up will take time......so if you work 50 hours a week you`re telling me your crane operator is doing 2 picks an hour....or 2 jobs an hour & thats with no break, no pre or post trip & no travel time....? Beo...I love ya man but 100 crane picks a wk is total BS!!!



LXT.............

I dont think thats total BS. How many crans are you running? I know our company does that or better when were busy but that depends on the jobs.

 

[lxt]

I dont think thats total BS. How many crans are you running? I know our company does that or better when were busy but that depends on the jobs.

I would have to see that!!! c`mon............so your telling me if I have 10 crews on the same street that need a crane removal....10 crews = 10 jobs......you are telling me that the crane is doing each job in under an hour??? & thats going from house to house

either those are very,very simple trees & your climber/bucket operator got there early & pre-rigged the whole tree................or what you guys consider a crane removal is something totally different than what I do?????

when I have a crane show up...here, its a minimum of 4hrs = $600.00 counting port to job....we then work in conjunction with the crane operator during the removal process!!! the crew still has to clean up the mess with a 5 man crew on what I consider to be a crane job!!!! the crane might be done in 4 hrs but we need the rest of the day & sometimes into the next!! even at this rate in my biz, if the crane followed us to the next job (considering we leave the mess) we could only do 2 picks a day!

So.....even if you own the crane, you still have initial port to job time! If your company has 10 crews all working in close proximity with every thing timed perfectly!!!!!!!!!! you still have to clean the mess up!!! whats the crane do then???

I am no crane expert...........tis why I hire the guy I mentioned.........funny he`s busy at 3 jobs a day & if he worked 7 days would still not have 1/4 of the picks you guys are mentioning!!! at the amount you have stated you guys are crane picking rosebushes or something......no way you are doing any big rigging & picking!



LXT.................