walker mufflers....

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point taken ...

in fact, now that I think of it, being as detonation, from a few minutes of idling hot on cheap gas, is able to explode tiny chunks of metal out of the top of a piston and cylinder head, it doesn't seem too likely that a sprayed on layer of paint, or maybe even of a "high-tech" add-on ceramic, as an add-on layer, would survive the temperatures, pressures and gas turbulence ...

doh! on me! ... back to just keeping the chamber clean and shiny, which is why I like the MX2T
 
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Detonation/pre-ignition is a different matter again, caused by the fuel/air charge to reach ritical self ingnition prematurely & exploding causing supersonic shock waves to occure and blasting metal fragments off.

Listed below is a number of references to “information” explaining the advantages of protecting an engines internals from the ravages of combustion heat. I have given other forum members ideas towards boosting performance (& reliability). In reading the correspondence it is obvious there is some difficulty in understanding some of the physics involved so I will briefly explain how the concept can work in the context of, using in my case, VHT paint as a heat shield/protectant.

As with specialist ceramic spray on coatings used by NASA and high performance engine manufacturers i.e. porsche, Wiesco etc, VHT paint as you get from auto accessory shops contains ceramic compounds that are very poor in transferring heat i.e to the piston, from combustion heat, yet itself is impervious to the effects of heat. Ceramics generally are clay based compounds. Exhaust gum (exhaust joint sealing goo) contains clay, suspended in an epoxy carrier. When applied to a joint the epoxy carrier burns and chemically changes to act as a rigid binder. VHT paint behaves in a similar manner except the epoxy carrier (the paint) retains its original state to a higher temperature.

How is this paint rated to 1500f (815cel) able to stand up to combustion temperatures up to 2500c. In the same context working limits for Aluminium alloys is about 500c, cylinder wall oil film about 450c. Ever done the lighter flame test across the palm of your hand. As the article from Warwick explains, “In a typical internal combustion engine, combustion is over in less than 4 ms”. Combustion temperature,peaks of 2500c measure than 1ms with total burn periods less than 4. Additional to this there is the effect of what’s called boundry layer, which is a microscopic gas layer in this case over the surface of the metal acts as a sort of temp regulator that fluctuates significantly less, comparatively speaking than the combustion temp peaks.

In the application as a heat shield e.g. on a piston crown, the surface layer of the paint will burn (oxidise) to an degree, but this oxdising process does not degrade from the paints ability to shield heat. It will over a period of time, depending on extremes, disperse or in a sense evaporate and effectively wear off the coating, which will need reapplying at some stage dependent on conditions. In the “performance” applications that I experimented with in coating piston crown, combustion chamber & exh port it in a small 50cc 2 stroke air cooled engine, setup as a blower as an experiment, I experienced consistant 40-50celcius drop in working load head temperatures. If the head experiences this temporature drop, then the piston will too, my conclusion is that the hot underside of the piston, being exposed to the crank case charge will also heat the charge which is less desirable. This was all the proof I needed for myself, to justify such an easy and cheap modification. The advantages in confining the combustion temperatures to the gases themselves means the temperature can do what it is meant to do..expand the air charge more..creating more force on the piston..translating to more power..its logical that the paint don't burn off the outside of exhaust pipes (that glow read hot) why should it be different on th inside of the pipe, it works, don't knock it till you tried it !!

The same discussion has taken place in another forum several years ago that raised some of the same issues..
http://forums.corner-carvers.com/archive/index.php/t-2253.html what more can I say

http://www.customclassictrucks.com/techarticles/137_0312_cerm/
Spray-On horsepower Ceramic Coatings By Bob Ryder
Who would have thought that horsepower could be gained from coating internal engine components? Internal engine components are made from dissimilar metals. Due to the lack of metallurgical similarities of these components, they absorb and dissipate heat at different cycling periods. The ability to protect and cool engine internal and external components actually contributes to noticeable horsepower and performance gains.

http://www.swaintech.com/twostroke.html
Why Coat A Two Stroke Piston?
Pistons are the highest stressed and the most critical part of an internal combustion engine. This is especially true for a two stroke motor.

http://users.tkk.fi/~tpyrjovu/ceramics/
BENEFITS ON APPLYING CERAMICS TO COMBUSTION ENGINES
The purpose of this document is to be a brief study on applying ceramic materials for usage in combustion engines. The document was written as a literal part of the seminar presentation lectured for the course “Kon-67.104 Introduction to materials science and selection of materials” at Helsinki University of Technology in Laboratory of Engineering Materials. Because of the lack of sources and the limitations due the course there is not any cutting edge information nor break through results.

http://www.rpw.com.au/Products/HPC Coatings/HPC Coatings.htm
Performance Engine Coatings
HPC offers two coatings for pistons and valves that can be used together separately of each other based on needs and some class regulations in racing. HPC's thermal barrier coating (TBC) is applied to the combustion face of the piston and a wettable solid dry film (SDF) applied to the skirt.

http://www.speedoptions.com/articles/1513/
Thermal barriers as the name implies are barriers or shields to thermal events or heat. An internal combustion engine is basically a thermally controlled air pump. So various engine events will depend on heat to function properly while others depend on the elimination of heat to live. Remember, an engine's working fluid is air, introduce an air charge into the combustion chamber, provide an ignition source with a combustible compound to heat it at the correct time, and you produce work. Sounds easy, however heat is the key to making a little power, a lot of power, or seizing the engine.

http://speedoptions.com/articles/1213/
what are thermal coatings and what do they do? Thermal coatings come in two basic categories; thermal dispersants to help get rid of heat and thermal barriers to block heat. Thermal dispersants help the coated part shed heat faster than that part normally would dispense with were it bare or un-coated.
In early 1998, the INDY LITES organization decided to conduct a test of their then current oil cooler and thermal dispersants. They had the oil cooler thermal dispersant coated, it was then tested on and off the track. They experienced a 15% reduction in oil temperatures; the smaller older coated oil cooler out performed its newer and larger replacement. All INDY LITES teams now run coated oil coolers.

http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/oel/papers/2002/2001-11-05.pdf
2 Introduction
Heat transfer measurements within internal combustion engines has become increasingly important with the drive towards higher efficiencies and cleaner exhaust emissions as well as increased energy levels at the exhaust for turbo-charging. Although internal combustion engines have been studied for many years the combustion chamber temperature and heat transfer rates have been investigated to a lesser extent. During a combustion cycle the peak gas temperature can reach levels around 2500 K. The metal components of the combustion chamber can withstand approximately 600 K for cast iron and 500 K for aluminium alloys (Lim, 1998). Hence, cooling of the cylinder head, block and piston is required.

http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/oel/papers/2002/2002-01-0747.pdf
INTRODUCTION
Difficulty in understanding and measuring the combustion process is partly due to the short duration of the flame. In a typical internal combustion engine, combustion is over in less than 4 ms. The flame-front is multi-spectral, in terms of emitted radiation, threedimensional and highly turbulent. In order to make a worthwhile measurement of the burning process, each of
these parameters must be taken into account. Add into this variation in pressure, mixing of fuel and air, combustion chamber geometry, engine speed and loading; the problem becomes highly complex
 
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Liuke I said previously all these coatings where tried in the early nineties but quit a few tuners. The simply had no effect or had the negative effect of increasing a engines octane requirment.
I am very doubtfull that a can of spray on VHT paint will hold up inside a motor. The stuff burns of headers. It may leavesome of the ceramic behind, but I dont want oxidized paint particles traveling through my engine for no gain.
 
I'm sorry Ben..I don't follow what you're saying..is it that "you" don't believe the results ceramics can return..or that the VHT paint that I have been using doesn't return results...PLEASE...qualify what you say, I'm just as interested in any different line of logic. The specialist caoting with ceramics is a significant industry..."ALL" top fuel and nitro drag cars use the technology..all jet engines with afterburners use coatings on the exhaust nozel vanes and other internals..turbo jet turbine blades... to name a few applications in every day use...to say it was tried in the early 90s and discarded...I'm unclear on your thinking..support it!..I will keep an open mind.

Sure I would be the 1st to agree my approach is low tech..but I have been using it for several years on all my engines I modify (a few now), it doesn't last for ever but easily lasts between strip downs and I haven't seen ANY evidence of the coating flacking or peeling off..like painting a house it comes down to the preparation..give it a try :)...then knock it

http://www.mindbranch.com/products/R2-849.html
The North American market for high-performance ceramic coating services in 2004 is estimated at $1.1 billion. This is expected to increase to $1.6 billion by 2009 at an annual average growth rate (AAGR) of 7.6%.

http://www.thinair-usa.com/Ceramic.html#InternalEng
"Piston temperature and horsepower are interrelated. High horsepower per cubic inch engines not only make more horsepower, but they make more heat. How the excess heat is handled has a significant effect on total engine power and longevity."
The temperature difference between coated and non-coated applications can be up to 65% heat reduction.

http://www.engineceramics.com/coating_pistons.htm
Coating the piston ...reduces part operating temperature…reduce or eliminate detonation, allow higher compression ratios to be utilized and allow tighter piston to wall clearances for a better ring seal.

http://www.off-road.com/rock/ramproline/
It's hard to argue with ceramic coating when just about every component on a NASCAR race car is ceramic coated. Those guys know the benefits of ceramic coating to improve already high-performance engines by keeping the heat where it belongs.
 
We are talking two strokes here not jet turbines or funny cars. I would ask you to prove that ceramic coatings produce positive results? I am not talking about marketing BS from Swain and the ilk rather peer reviewed research from sources like the SAE.
 
I don't understand why anyone would want to ceramic insulate a muffler ... seems that the object would be to reduce exhaust temps at the exhaust port, even for the case of pipes designed for surcharge by reflected pulse ?
 
Molecule said:
I don't understand why anyone would want to ceramic insulate a muffler ... seems that the object would be to reduce exhaust temps at the exhaust port, even for the case of pipes designed for surcharge by reflected pulse ?
I do not know if it works or not; but the idea is that the loss of heat is a loss of energy and when you are using the energy of the exhaust to pull fuel through your cylinder any loss of the heat would be a reduction in the system you are using (tuned pipe). Ceramic coating the exterior of tuned pipes is a very popular thing to do these days with racing quads. This is not to say that it does or does not work, but that a lot of people do it because they believe it does.
 
that idea, of energy density of the total system, is the one that usually stumps me ... on tuned pipes for example, I still want to think of cooling the *pipes down, a cooler *gas temp creating a negative pressure to pull the exhaust out of the cylinder, and on the back charge pulse, the cooler gas having more desity, and therefore more potential energy ... it might be that deploying the muffler metal as a radiator (e.g. no ceramic coating) would cause the metal temp to rise, which in turn creates a hotter interior space, which in turn prevents the exhaust temps from cooling.

one of the things Dolmar did on the muffler design for their 120 series (an absolutely great saw--I have a 6800) was to add an external "hot-plate" 1/4" in front of the actual muffler, probably for fire safety reasons ... but I've always wondered whether the designers could have better deployed that space as a 40-50% increase in muffler internal volume, for more expansion cooling, and put an interior deflector baffle (and maybe some ceramic coating) to prevent a hot spot right across from the exhaust port. As it is, the muffler has a bare minimum for expansion volume, requiring a pretty much "straight thru" design, which admittedly is quite noisy.
 
just a thought..... if the gas is cooling, then energy is transferred....also if the gas cools and becomes denser then (opposite of combustion) pressures fall.... both of these would have the effect of the gases loosing velocity ??? right??? Now if you are using the rapid cooling of exhaust to create your vacuum then I could see where you are coming from; but in a tuned pipe it is the rapid increase in volume of space followed by a constriction to create a vacuum and then a reverberating shock wave as the system. I am no expert but I am not sure you could cool down the exhaust fast enough to get the desired effect.
 
This is how chambers work. The 1st half of a chamber works on a 2 stroke the same as a megaphone on a 4 stroke..like the old days with the Manx Nortons..you don't need a megaphone for a result but it improves the effect..as the exh opens (2 or 4 stroke) a pressure pulse is sent down the pipe at the head of the wave/flow of exhaust (get a vacuum cleaner pipe and bang the palm of your hand against the end...if your feel for it, you will feel a slight suck against your palm (inside the pipe), that is the negative pulse (vacuum wave) returning up the pipe.

So...the port opens, the pressure wave shoots down the pipe and as it reaches the end of the pipe the pressure wave expands into open air and creates a negative pulse (vacuum) that returns back up the pipe. At this point 2 & 4 stroke differ in what you need to achieve because 4 stroke are able to scavenge the exhaust far better that a 2 stroke...anyway for 2 strokes this is half the story...at this point we have the exhaust gases dragged out of the cylinder (mostly), and fuel air charge is following right behind...down the pipe...expansion chambers are a double megaphone...the 1st to expand the pressure wave and maximise its energy to extract the exhaust gas out through the port (bigger volume pipes tend to have a stronger effect (to a point) for given size motor. The 2nd megaphone is inverted/reversed which has the effect of condensing the pressure wave which has done its job in extracting the exhaust out through the port...when the condensed pressure wave reaches the end of the chamber at the stinger/tail pipe, it bounces back up the pipe towards the port...by this time the fuel/air charge can in some engines be 30% of the way into the chamber...the pressure wave heading back up the pipe has the effect of stuffing the escaping fuel/air charge back into the cylinder...the objective is to time the stuffing of as much of the charge back as, or before the exhaust port closes... now because the top of the exhaust port is above the tops of the intake ports, they are closed when half of the exhaust port is still open, and because the pressure wave...is under pressure...this can create a positive pressure in the cylinder, before compression even begins (in a sense super charging the mix)...remember this is cool intake charge being exhausted...this whole process is very timing critical and is the reason very efficient pipes tend to make an engine so peaky (very narrow power bands)...the power band created will be determined by...the area of the port & diameter & taper of the pipe...the peak revs determined by, the port timing and length of the pipe and the size of the stinger (tail pipe)...the stinger acts in a sense like a leaky valve..to big and you loose to much of the pressure pulse...to small the pressure builds up inside the pipe and chokes the motor and dampens the pressure waves, so its size depends on the size of the engine, & the peak performance/output...temperarture effects the performance of the pipe in that if the exh gases are cooled...there is less available energy maintained for the reversed pressure wave..so hot is best for a chamber...cool is best for a muffler
 
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Dear Ben...I think you've missed the point of ceramic coatings..Q:what advantages do water cooled engines (talking 2 strokes) have over air cooled...if there is an advantage, how is that achieved..I await your reply :)
 
ErrolC if you go through the old posts on here you will find that Ben understands tuned pipes quite well. The discussion is over the placement of ceramics and the effects of cooling. Now I think there is a place for the coatings but I believe it to be limited to the tops of the pistons and to the interior of the exhaust port to insulate against heat transfer. Insulating the top of the cylinder though might cause a problem by not allowing the cylinder to warm and to expand as fast as the piston. This is a not so uncommon problem in cold tempurature operation. The piston will expand faster than the cylinder(or the cylinder will contract when set down for break) causing it to sieze. If you have ever found a piston that is has evenly spaced scoring completely around it, then you most likely have seen it. the weakest point of any 2 stroke engine is the psiton. They get hot, they swell, they smear. Now based on what little I understand... If you coat only the top of the cylinder there by transferring more heat to the piston; will this not cause the piston to swell greater as the cylinder swells less and take the risk of a full piston siezure? Now in defense of my own theory... the gas has already transferred it's heat "inside" the cylinder and coating the interior of the exhaust port only keeps from transferring more heat as the exhaust leaves past the cylinder. this is also why the industry uses sheilds between the muffler and the cylinder.
 
granted..my outline was in response to Molecules entry...back to coating the head...just for further debate, have you ever noticed the finning arrangements of air cooled motorcycle and racing gocart cylinder heads...with radial head finning...the object with th design is to get better cooling directly where it is needed (the hot point, the center of the head)...and some of these later engines have significantly large head finning...it would be interesting to know what the specific differences are in the rate and amount of heating...and you've prompted me to research this further...however the motorsport industry has researched the issue of piston temp & expansion and developed high silicon alloys with very low expansion rates, more specifically for air cooled engines...these have their own peculiarities to consider when used...however I would reiterate my question on the issues of liquid cooling, as well as where the focus is on liquid cooled designs (across the board) an area of critical design has been, and remains, even head cooling...hense aftermarket liquid cooled heads for air cooled motors...one of the reasons I'm sure you're aware of is Nikasil and chrome plating bores was to bring closer together the rates of expansion between the barrel and piston...and create better heat conduction from the piston through the cylinder, to the cooling system...it does ponder further thought though on why we focus on messuring the head temp rather than the cylinder temp...it remains important however to warm any engine up to temp...my feeling though is that if the piston is siezing evenly around, then the tollerances are to tight for that particular design...lets see what we can find on this head issue though!
 
My thought on the liquid cooled head is that it is the same, just more efficient. You are only pulling more heat through the head is all. the air cool uses the fins as the mechanism as where the liquid is the other. Both are still pulling heat away from the internals of the motor. It's funny that you mentioned tolerances being too tight. I have one R&D saw (an 084) that we kept siezing. Among other things, we turned the diameter of the piston down. This has caused a little piston slap but only until it is warms up. This saw is also not a woods saw by any stretch of the imagination so longevity is not our main concearn. Here is another question to think about... At what point does bringing down the cumbustion chamber Temperatures hurt performance? How much does the heat of the cumbustion chamber contribute to the vaporizing of the fuel/ mix? What about the tempurature of the top of the piston? Do we want to get as close to the predetination stage of combution as possible by tayloring our fuel or is our goal to keep the fuel a cool as possible until detination. I know that high octane fuel is a cure for predetination but is that the real problem or just a symptom? I know that the cooler the fuel entering into the crank case translates into more energy into the combustion chamber. What about after it enters the cylinder though? Will the temperatures determine efficincy of cumbustion? Of coarse this is all a balancing act.
 

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