Yup...and out of respect for TZED, who's really a pretty good guy, I'd like to say something good about GOL.
...but I can't think of anything.
West Coast G.O.L. classes?
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Yup...and out of respect for TZED, who's really a pretty good guy, I'd like to say something good about GOL.
...but I can't think of anything.
Tzed250
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yup...and out of respect for TZED, who's really a pretty good guy, I'd like to say something good about GOL.
...but I can't think of anything.
That's OK, I can say plenty of good about it...:hmm3grin2orange:
forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
re-reading my post i felt i wasn't clear; or that i was alienating people.
but i can't think of how i want to say what i want to say. plus i'm not a west coaster, i think i'll shut up and go watch ax men.
but i can't think of how i want to say what i want to say. plus i'm not a west coaster, i think i'll shut up and go watch ax men.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'll say some good things about open face vs open mind
1) There are times where maintaining directional control and descent speed reduction all the way to the ground are achievable and desirable. (That doesn't mean they always are achievable or desirable.)
2) The boring cuts can have some specific benefits on a tree by tree basis. (That doesn't mean boring is always a good idea.)
3) That virtually any stringent safety oriented program will have significant benefits, especially when viewed within the context of over 40,000 chain saw injuries in the US each year. (That doesn't mean boring while falling is always a good safe idea.)
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The biggest problem with any of these methodologies is the "my way or the highway" attitude.
While I will state that I believe open face to be extremely limited in the bigger / taller / steep ground / conifer / snag laden forests of the West Coast ...........
............ I would like to add that I don't believe for a moment that a Humboldt guy should go to Sweden and try and promote that technique as the only way there.
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You can probably learn something worthwhile from almost any faller if you have an open mind.
1) There are times where maintaining directional control and descent speed reduction all the way to the ground are achievable and desirable. (That doesn't mean they always are achievable or desirable.)
2) The boring cuts can have some specific benefits on a tree by tree basis. (That doesn't mean boring is always a good idea.)
3) That virtually any stringent safety oriented program will have significant benefits, especially when viewed within the context of over 40,000 chain saw injuries in the US each year. (That doesn't mean boring while falling is always a good safe idea.)
=================
The biggest problem with any of these methodologies is the "my way or the highway" attitude.
While I will state that I believe open face to be extremely limited in the bigger / taller / steep ground / conifer / snag laden forests of the West Coast ...........
............ I would like to add that I don't believe for a moment that a Humboldt guy should go to Sweden and try and promote that technique as the only way there.
===========
You can probably learn something worthwhile from almost any faller if you have an open mind.
Tzed250
Addicted to ArboristSite
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here is an example
I can't take it.
I just had to come back and mouth off some more.
==============
When you watch Axmen sometime forget the shouting-cursing-competition scenarios and watch the trees going over.
Even though the trees are not big in diameter, they are somewhat taller and come over powerfully because of the longer lever.
Most of what they are falling is Doug Fir and it is surprisingly strong softwood, (not hard - strong). However, it is not strong enough to hold a tree with an open face and the necessary holding wood - WITHOUT PUTTING AN UNDO AMOUNT OF STRESS ON THE HINGE - I.e. risk a barber chair.
These tall guys are physically powerful and the greater force that a tree applies to a hinge while desceding the more possible negative outcomes there are. (Sidebar: Can you visualize how this could have been overlooked by fallers in stunted forests near the arctic circle?)
This greater physics, just one instance here, is what can make one technique more dangerous than another.
I didn't say that a face center bore followed by a boring back can't be a great barber chair risk reduction combo.
I do want to somehow impress upon the general reader that there is the possibility that trying to control some trees descent all or most of the way to the ground is not a good idea.
Watch those trees go over and see if you can feel the power and speed that even smaller diameter tall conifers can have. Part of the way I think you can sense this is note the curve in the stem because of the wind resistence created by a relatively small canopy of fir needles.
I hope.
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All the Best
I can't take it.
I just had to come back and mouth off some more.
==============
When you watch Axmen sometime forget the shouting-cursing-competition scenarios and watch the trees going over.
Even though the trees are not big in diameter, they are somewhat taller and come over powerfully because of the longer lever.
Most of what they are falling is Doug Fir and it is surprisingly strong softwood, (not hard - strong). However, it is not strong enough to hold a tree with an open face and the necessary holding wood - WITHOUT PUTTING AN UNDO AMOUNT OF STRESS ON THE HINGE - I.e. risk a barber chair.
These tall guys are physically powerful and the greater force that a tree applies to a hinge while desceding the more possible negative outcomes there are. (Sidebar: Can you visualize how this could have been overlooked by fallers in stunted forests near the arctic circle?)
This greater physics, just one instance here, is what can make one technique more dangerous than another.
I didn't say that a face center bore followed by a boring back can't be a great barber chair risk reduction combo.
I do want to somehow impress upon the general reader that there is the possibility that trying to control some trees descent all or most of the way to the ground is not a good idea.
Watch those trees go over and see if you can feel the power and speed that even smaller diameter tall conifers can have. Part of the way I think you can sense this is note the curve in the stem because of the wind resistence created by a relatively small canopy of fir needles.
I hope.
-----------
All the Best
Last edited:
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Watch some videos of bore cutting. Often the undercut is much too small, into the tree that is, not up the tree (ruining a foot or so of the butt log). Generally the undercut should be about 1/4 to 1/3 the diameter of the tree, what I have seen in many bore cutting videos is about 1/6. Wrong. Just asking for the tree to chair in some scenarios.
Also, when the faller finishes the bore, before cutting the strap, he hammers in wedges. And I mean hammers them in, hard. When you are cutting down a tree with a Humbolt, you can see exactly what your wedging actions are doing.
What really gets me is-why change what has worked well, for thousands of fallers, millions of times. And why get uppity about it?
Also, when the faller finishes the bore, before cutting the strap, he hammers in wedges. And I mean hammers them in, hard. When you are cutting down a tree with a Humbolt, you can see exactly what your wedging actions are doing.
What really gets me is-why change what has worked well, for thousands of fallers, millions of times. And why get uppity about it?
ultimate buzz
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you
Thanks for the replies, especially the informative replies from Smokechase II and others.I think the idea of canvasing the local bars in Castle Rock would probably be an adventure in itself, but probably wouldn't go over to well with his wife.
Superfire, going out west is not possible for me for a while. Was there any particular you tube videos that you had in mind that I could bring to his attention?There seems to be an overwhelming amount of info, and from what I've seen in the past, a few of them are not what I would percieve as safe practices. -ken
Thanks for the replies, especially the informative replies from Smokechase II and others.I think the idea of canvasing the local bars in Castle Rock would probably be an adventure in itself, but probably wouldn't go over to well with his wife.
Superfire, going out west is not possible for me for a while. Was there any particular you tube videos that you had in mind that I could bring to his attention?There seems to be an overwhelming amount of info, and from what I've seen in the past, a few of them are not what I would percieve as safe practices. -ken
bogiemsn
ArboristSite Operative
:agree2:
That said, GOL is an excellent course for safety and methodical cutting techniques. If your friend is new to using chainsaws GOL is good way to start. It'll at least teach him to think about what he's doing.
School of hard knocks is always a good teacher but lets face it, with felling some of those "knocks" can be the last thing you learn.
Learning from a professional timber faller would be a good way to go too, if you get the right one. You could find an excellent faller but a poor teacher. Finding the right guy could be harder than you think.
BTW - I have take the GOL classes. My instructor was very open to criticism and questioning. His basic attitude was "show me a better way and I'll use it".
woodguy105
ArboristSite Guru
:agree2:
GOL will get a newbie THINKING about: Falling direction,safety,reading the crown to see where that big oak might go, safety, proper PPE, safety, looking around before the back cut, having plan -where am I going when she starts falling, checking your saw before you start cutting did I mention safety?
Also covered some basic chain saw maintenance when I took GOL 1. The course cost me I think $130 bucks 2 years ago -about 6-7 hours of chainsaw use/ education. Well worth the time and money. IMHO
No doubt the GOL bore cut is not practical or useful in every situation or perhaps most situations. But it it's another tool in the arsenal. GOL is so much more than the "bore cut method" it makes you THINK before you cut. Something too many home owners / amateurs DO NOT do.
I'm sorry, I gotta comment. He's from Collyfonia. That's one strike if not more against him. He's moving to the Castle Rock area. There's got to be many, many guys there who can cut the trees FOR him. After all, he's a rich Collyfonian. That's what he'll be perceived to be. What with the logging almost shut down, it might be a way to atone for well, being from the south.
I do not know if there is still a saw shop in Castle Rock. There used to be and the owners also logged. But I'm thinking it is closed. So, I would suggest he venture up I-5 (note it is not THE I-5) and hang out around one of the two Chehalis saw shops. Maybe ask around there. There was a 90 year old in Madsens a couple weeks ago, picking up a saw he was having worked on, who said he finally decided not to work as a full time production faller anymore. I don't know if he is crotchety or not. But I bet he knows a bit about making trees hit the ground.
He needs to ditch the CA license plates as soon as possible, and never use the phrase, Back in California....
I do not know if there is still a saw shop in Castle Rock. There used to be and the owners also logged. But I'm thinking it is closed. So, I would suggest he venture up I-5 (note it is not THE I-5) and hang out around one of the two Chehalis saw shops. Maybe ask around there. There was a 90 year old in Madsens a couple weeks ago, picking up a saw he was having worked on, who said he finally decided not to work as a full time production faller anymore. I don't know if he is crotchety or not. But I bet he knows a bit about making trees hit the ground.
He needs to ditch the CA license plates as soon as possible, and never use the phrase, Back in California....
That's what I love about this place. I'm a west coaster..way west and north..and was taught by guys from Oregon and Idaho. I went and watched a couple vids on You Tube about bore cut. Hell, the idea of ramming a bar straight into a tree was something I'd never considered. I could see it's use at times in our birch forests, but I'll keep doing what I know best.
