Methoss084
ArboristSite Operative
I've heard comfirmations about this engine from the guys at Northeast Stihl. But, this engine is not being made inhouse at Virginia Beach or Germany. Who's going to build it for them?
Which Saws are on the way out ?
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NevadaWalrus
ArboristSite Operative
Stihl
They told us this engine is theirs, but I didn't think to ask if it was made in Virginia Beach or Germany.
They told us this engine is theirs, but I didn't think to ask if it was made in Virginia Beach or Germany.
Darin
No Longer Here
Kathy Lee Giffard's sweat shop, in Columbia is gonna make it. Its gonna be great to keep the cost down. KMart can't wait to supply them for the next three days while they are in business.
Don't know either but there aren't a whole lot of plants left. Brazil is the only other that I know of. My guess is its Virginia Beach cause it was produced more for North America cause of the EPA stuff.
Don't know either but there aren't a whole lot of plants left. Brazil is the only other that I know of. My guess is its Virginia Beach cause it was produced more for North America cause of the EPA stuff.
Cicero
Big C in the 303
I too have run the new stihl 4mix engine. It does meet the 2005 emission regs. It is my understanding that it will be available in Calif. only this spring, with nationwide distribution later this fall.
However, know that the EPA regulations set for 2005 are based on each companies full line of product. In other words, some engines will meet or beat the standards while others will not. Whether and engine is allowed to be sold will be based on the overall performance from each company. Credits are given to the company for every machine which meets the regulations and taken away from for those which do not. That is why some of our chainsaw are still adjustable and others are not i.e. larger chainsaws vs. smaller ones. Chainsaws will be extremely tough to convert to 4-cycle or any hybrid requiring valves due to the rpms in which they must run. Therefore, you may see companies like Zenoah and Shindaiwa and other lesser volume companies have a tough time justifing the sale of chainsaws since they will most always count against their total EPA requirements.
Stihl, Echo, Husqvarna have the chainsaw volume and $$$ to invest heavily into machines which do meet EPA in order to secure the fact that other machines can be sold which dont. We will see.
However, know that the EPA regulations set for 2005 are based on each companies full line of product. In other words, some engines will meet or beat the standards while others will not. Whether and engine is allowed to be sold will be based on the overall performance from each company. Credits are given to the company for every machine which meets the regulations and taken away from for those which do not. That is why some of our chainsaw are still adjustable and others are not i.e. larger chainsaws vs. smaller ones. Chainsaws will be extremely tough to convert to 4-cycle or any hybrid requiring valves due to the rpms in which they must run. Therefore, you may see companies like Zenoah and Shindaiwa and other lesser volume companies have a tough time justifing the sale of chainsaws since they will most always count against their total EPA requirements.
Stihl, Echo, Husqvarna have the chainsaw volume and $$$ to invest heavily into machines which do meet EPA in order to secure the fact that other machines can be sold which dont. We will see.
tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
lol - big - maybe you missed class on this day...
"convert to 4-cycle or any hybrid requiring valves due to the rpms in which they must run"
the 2 stroker will outrev any other stroker out there - any one of them....where did you dig that stuff from?
"convert to 4-cycle or any hybrid requiring valves due to the rpms in which they must run"
the 2 stroker will outrev any other stroker out there - any one of them....where did you dig that stuff from?
sedanman
Just cut the piano!!
Tundraotto, I think it is you who are confused. Not about engine theory but about Bigs post. I think he was trying to say that chainsaws will be difficult to convert to 4-stroke because of the speed required of the saw, not the speed produced by the 4-stroke. I'm not trying to get in the middle of a pissing match but I thought I could clear this up. By the way a 4-stroke can produce more torque than the same size 2-stroke so maybe we'll start to see 4-stroke saws with 10 or 12 tooth sprockets to get chain speed up.
NevadaWalrus
ArboristSite Operative
4 cycle rpm
Dead on Sedaman, sprocket size and torque is the secret to saws using 4 cycle in the future. The 4-Mix Stihl is capped at 10,500 right now, not bad at that, and won't take much sprocket size increase to provide the chain speed most are accustomed to today. The higher torque available will make that sprocket size increase possible.
But that may not be needed. Remember, newer saws in general are much smaller in displacement amd get their power by running faster then older more torqy 2 cycles. Most of those older 2 cycles were stressed to rev over 10,000 but they cut just fine.
Dead on Sedaman, sprocket size and torque is the secret to saws using 4 cycle in the future. The 4-Mix Stihl is capped at 10,500 right now, not bad at that, and won't take much sprocket size increase to provide the chain speed most are accustomed to today. The higher torque available will make that sprocket size increase possible.
But that may not be needed. Remember, newer saws in general are much smaller in displacement amd get their power by running faster then older more torqy 2 cycles. Most of those older 2 cycles were stressed to rev over 10,000 but they cut just fine.
Cicero
Big C in the 303
Not to burst any bubbles, however, I did not make that information up on my own. Most of what I said I heard from Mr. Stihl himself. Myself and 8 other dealers had a sit down dinner a couple months ago and he is the one who said "he does not believe you will ever see 4-cycle chainsaws due to the fact that they run at such high rpms." They are not even currently investigating the possibility.
Tundraotto, you did misread my quote. I am well aware that a 2-stroke is capable of higher rpms. No school missed here. Thanks Sedanman.
Tundraotto, you did misread my quote. I am well aware that a 2-stroke is capable of higher rpms. No school missed here. Thanks Sedanman.
confused
ArboristSite Operative
All right fellas lets clear something’s up. Four strokes can run outrageous RPM's. Yamaha R6 600 cc 16,000-RPM rev limited. There is a company in Australia that produces a 750 cc v-8 that runs appr. 20,000 RPM In fact most every sport bike motor made runs above 10,000 RPM, the 750 cc, and 600 cc run around 14,000 or more. So given enough time and money we will have (if EPA has anything to say about it) some 4-stroke chainsaws. However, it might take two guys to run it. So four strokes can and will run as high if not higher RPM's than 2-strokes. The problem for both is the valves/reeds floating/fluttering respectively. The only way higher RPM will be attained is turbine motors. Which are lighter and last longer than their piston brethren and don’t need mix fuel but run HOT as HELL during a heat wave! So who knows where the engineers will take us.
Confused
Confused
tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
confused - youre once again utterly confused - 2 stroke will outrev a 4 stroke engine any day of the week - every other cycle is power cycle as opposed to one in every 4, in a 4stroke - are you a freshman?
i know there are high revving 4 strokes - F1 cars rev to 19500rpm with their 3liter v10s - thats not the point - a 2stroke revs higher. it doesnt have the torque but it does have a significant weight advantage.
i know there are high revving 4 strokes - F1 cars rev to 19500rpm with their 3liter v10s - thats not the point - a 2stroke revs higher. it doesnt have the torque but it does have a significant weight advantage.
confused
ArboristSite Operative
RPM by definition Revolutions per minute not power cycles per minute. So the very fact that a two stroke runs at 14,000 RPM and a four stroke runs at 14,000 RPM they are both running at the same speed. If I'm not mistaken the two stroke (one piston) fires on every compression stroke and the four stroke is every other. A cycle is by my understanding is one revolution of the crank. Therefore, every cycle is a power cycle for a 2-stroke and 1 in 2 for the 4-stroke. So, who’s the freshman, now?
Weight advantage is to the turbine, best power to weight on the planet, sans nuclear.
Weight advantage is to the turbine, best power to weight on the planet, sans nuclear.
tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
we all know what rpm means thanks - yes they are both running at the same speed at 14k rpm - however - due to the valveless design and more 'power' strokes than a 4cycle a 2cycle will rev higher than your four stroke. youre are still the freshman
heres a little tidbit for you from madsens
One of the main differences, and confusing to me at first, is the "cycle" part of 2-stroke theory (2-cycle versus 2-stroke). I used to think a cycle was a rotation of the crankshaft. It's easier to understand it as a "stroke". My first lesson taught me a stroke is a trip, made by the piston, either up or down a cylinder. I also learned that the crankshaft on all small engines rotate once every two strokes. This was true for both 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines, and this was confusing. What was the difference?
Then I learned a 2-stroke engine has a power stroke every other cycle. This meant the 2-stroke engine has one power stroke every time the crankshaft makes a full revolution. A 4-stroke has a power stroke every four strokes. This meant on a 4-stroke, the crankshaft would make two rotations for every power stroke. Wow. It was immediately clear why 2-strokes made more power. 2-stroke engines enjoy the benefits of twice as many power strokes as a 4-stroke engine.
back to class -
heres a little tidbit for you from madsens
One of the main differences, and confusing to me at first, is the "cycle" part of 2-stroke theory (2-cycle versus 2-stroke). I used to think a cycle was a rotation of the crankshaft. It's easier to understand it as a "stroke". My first lesson taught me a stroke is a trip, made by the piston, either up or down a cylinder. I also learned that the crankshaft on all small engines rotate once every two strokes. This was true for both 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines, and this was confusing. What was the difference?
Then I learned a 2-stroke engine has a power stroke every other cycle. This meant the 2-stroke engine has one power stroke every time the crankshaft makes a full revolution. A 4-stroke has a power stroke every four strokes. This meant on a 4-stroke, the crankshaft would make two rotations for every power stroke. Wow. It was immediately clear why 2-strokes made more power. 2-stroke engines enjoy the benefits of twice as many power strokes as a 4-stroke engine.
back to class -
NevadaWalrus
ArboristSite Operative
Hey guys, I'm new here and don't want to get in an argument. The whole point is that unless some sort of new technology is developed, the 2 cycle will die due to emission regs sometime in the near future. At present, 4 cycle or a hybrid combining 4 and 2 is the least expensive way of converting hand held power equipment to meet the coming regs.
Granted, the dirty versus clean "credit" trade off will save some models for a while, but only until even cleaner regs come to force. Maybe someone will develope something new to save the 2 cycle, but right now I wouldn't invest money in any 2 cycle company who wasn't pursuing an alternative.
Granted, the dirty versus clean "credit" trade off will save some models for a while, but only until even cleaner regs come to force. Maybe someone will develope something new to save the 2 cycle, but right now I wouldn't invest money in any 2 cycle company who wasn't pursuing an alternative.
confused
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you but I knew all that and stated such in my rebuttal.
Moreover, I was right about a four stroke revving just as high as a two stroke. 14000 is 14000. So, I don’t know what you're basing your opinion of revving on. Yes, a two stroke will make twice as many power cycles as a four stroke and that’s really what you’re arguing.
So your right a two stroke will rev up to full RPM faster than a four stroke and will make power quicker than a four stroke. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean two strokes rev higher. I just wanted to set you straight.
Moreover, I was right about a four stroke revving just as high as a two stroke. 14000 is 14000. So, I don’t know what you're basing your opinion of revving on. Yes, a two stroke will make twice as many power cycles as a four stroke and that’s really what you’re arguing.
So your right a two stroke will rev up to full RPM faster than a four stroke and will make power quicker than a four stroke. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean two strokes rev higher. I just wanted to set you straight.
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tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
lol - what i was trying to say was that you can make a 2 stroke engine rev higher - there are no valve components etc. (less moving parts limiting the rpms by friction)
stihl kickin it
stihl kickin it
confused
ArboristSite Operative
O that Madsen’s animation was awesome; I did something like that in fourth grade with a flipbook. Here is a better description by a more informative website for everything.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke2.htm
Moreover, a four stroke will turn just as many RPM's as any two stroke. The valves and springs (some titanium) they have now can close really fast. O, another triumph for the valve is that Honda just put VTEC on the Interceptor. VTEC runs two valves per cylinder until 7000 RPM and then four valves per cylinder to 14000 RPM. WOW, that’s lots of moving parts.
O and that 750 cc V-8 motorcycle motor was running at around 21,000 RPM but the designer said he could get more. I have never heard of a two stroke running that high.
Both have their respective pros and cons but it is a FACT!!! that two strokes don't necessarily rev higher, they just rev quicker.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke2.htm
Moreover, a four stroke will turn just as many RPM's as any two stroke. The valves and springs (some titanium) they have now can close really fast. O, another triumph for the valve is that Honda just put VTEC on the Interceptor. VTEC runs two valves per cylinder until 7000 RPM and then four valves per cylinder to 14000 RPM. WOW, that’s lots of moving parts.
O and that 750 cc V-8 motorcycle motor was running at around 21,000 RPM but the designer said he could get more. I have never heard of a two stroke running that high.
Both have their respective pros and cons but it is a FACT!!! that two strokes don't necessarily rev higher, they just rev quicker.
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tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
right - have fun im done - im going to go argue with the stop sign here at the end of my road - it knows what its saying.
stihl kickin it
im done - im going to go argue with the stop sign here at the end of my road - it knows what its saying.stihl kickin it
Cicero
Big C in the 303
The other point that may be missing here is that you guys are using the larger 4-cycles as examples of high reving engines. The difference is that all of our equip. requires air to cool themselves. Larger machines have liquid cooling capablilities because size is not such an issue. Maybe when someone develops a material which does not get hot when moving up and down the fact will still remain that 14K will be tough to get with air cooled 4-stroke engines.
Tundraotto, maybe argue that valve trains dont get hot and that liquid cooling is a useless invention designed to raise the cost of our automobiles. This is why 4-cycle chainsaws are not in the works, not by Stihl, not by Honda. If you do develop a 4-cycle engine which will run that quick please post it on Madsens so that Mr. Sthil can inform himself and make a fortune at your expertise.
Tundraotto, maybe argue that valve trains dont get hot and that liquid cooling is a useless invention designed to raise the cost of our automobiles. This is why 4-cycle chainsaws are not in the works, not by Stihl, not by Honda. If you do develop a 4-cycle engine which will run that quick please post it on Madsens so that Mr. Sthil can inform himself and make a fortune at your expertise.
