who dominates this industry?

[ropensaddle]

Good read

I as many of you know started my careen in line clearance. I worked 20 plus years in that field before leaving due to new management issues. I have been really struggling in this economy and am about to sell out and go to work for someone most likely. I have been studying for arborist certification and feel I could pass in short term but am merely scratching the surface of what I would like to learn. Here in my state there is less opportunity than in many areas of the nation. I have applied as a forest tech this week but really could understand if I were not considered. I have looked into some of their duties and would certainly need training and study just to be entry level. I know I could learn to do it but cruising timber is more than what I expected. Unfortunately we can't go back and re-do our mistakes. I intend to get certified and if I sell the farm and most of my business may go to school for a degree. I am trying to crunch the numbers at the many thousands lost in my business and getting a good job offsetting it before retirement. I did not really know what I wanted to learn in high school and was immature for much of my early adulthood. In line clearance if you had a strong back and were not scared to learn to climb you was hired. I now know it would have been a way better outcome, working with a CA those years to learn the finer aspects of our industry. Having said that the grand worth of study material I have been somewhat working on has given me much more knowledge about biology and physiology. I am getting a better grasp of what it means to be arborist and many say I already am, I however; don't feel I am. I expect to not have to look things up unless its minimal. I may be my worst critic but I can't change the way I process thought.

 

[treevet]

Sure it sucks seeing landscapers sneaking into tree care. As for removals, if a tree is there....the owner doesn't want it there....then it is made to be not there...and nobody or nothing is hurt...what dif does it make if a landscaper or roofer or whoever is doing it?

One could profess (in pruning) that if a proper branch removal cut (natural target pruning cut) is made and the tree suffers no injury (spikes etc) in the process, then everything is kosher.

But imo since trees function in a mode referred to as "dynamic equillibrium" by Dr. Alex Shigo, and as branches die they progressively move carb stores back into the parent member, then...

We are doing trees NO favors by pruning them (trees will figure it out themselves). They will shed branches while maturing or if nec. because of dynamic equillibrium and in this process move the carb stores back to the stem for use. Just arbitrarilly removing a limb because of some perceived self opinion for asthetics or "safety" or function (while wounding it) it is doing the tree a disservice and could put the tree into a state of disorder. Insects and disease that prey on trees lie in wait to take advantage of a tree in disorder.

If you are removing dead limbs or broken parts of limbs then you are just doing an obvious "garbage removal" service akin to tree removal.....aren't you? and if the landscaper or roofer or accountant can safely climb and make a natural target pruning cut then.....what's the big deal.

 

[TreeClimber57]

Sure it sucks seeing landscapers sneaking into tree care. As for removals, if a tree is there....the owner doesn't want it there....then it is made to be not there...and nobody or nothing is hurt...what dif does it make if a landscaper or roofer or whoever is doing it?

Well I can almost guarantee that the roofer is not insured to perform tree removal, and if an accident happened would not likely be covered. Landscapers policy will not include tree removal either, however if they do it frequently and are smart would have it added to policy.

Furthermore, are they covered properly in their workers compensation? Seriously doubt it.. in our area workers comp is higher for tree companies than for landscapers.. Now not sure about roofers - as their workers comp is likely fairly high as well.. but if they added tree removal to their workers comp it still likely go up.

To do tree removals in some city's (a particular one comes to mind) in our area, you need (or the city bylaw states) a minimum of $3m liability insurance - and if you are working on municipal property it goes up to $5m. I could be wrong but doubt that any roofer and most landscapers are covered in the insurance side of it.

In fact in a couple of cities, to remove a tree (if it is not dead) you need to obtain a permit, and a CA is required to do some of the work (justify why tree is to be removed). If property size is over 3/4 acres then a proper plan needs to be submitted for any removals at all. Fine in once city for removal without proper paperwork is $1K per tree up to maximum of $20K.

Now .. having said that I see a lot of pickup truck and chainsaw guys around.. doubt they have the necessary paperwork.. but realistically if somebody does not report it nothing is done.

If you are removing dead limbs or broken parts of limbs then you are just doing an obvious "garbage removal" service akin to tree removal.....aren't you? and if the landscaper or roofer or accountant can safely climb and make a natural target pruning cut then.....what's the big deal.

Well if the limb is already broken, nothing other than safety concerns and possibly insurance issues..

Realistically if they are properly trained, pay proper WSIB policy, have proper liability insurance, and bid the job properly (don't lowball ... then guess I won't complain too loudly.

My major issue is that most of these guys are:
a) flying under radar and not paying dues (insurance, WSIB, taxes, training, etc)
b) lowballing - causing havoc in industry on pricing

On the flip side, if there is a roof that has an obvious need of repair.. should I send guys in to do it? I have dump trailer, ladders, ropes, an air compressor.. Does this make me a roofer?

 

[treemandan]

I guess I used arborists as a general term but what I basically mean is are lanscapers or actual tree services doing the majority of the work?

Yes, the question is better put this way as with the other way its just to broad to answer. Now to answer the question... ####! I can't, sorry. Its quite bewildering out there let me tell you.
I have resigned myself to dominating "my jobs" only if ya know what I mean. But as bleak as that may sound its actually very nice and it does seem that a lot of the scrapers around here stick to their business but its not like I never met one who wouldn't try.

 

[ducaticorse]

Well I can almost guarantee that the roofer is not insured to perform tree removal, and if an accident happened would not likely be covered. Landscapers policy will not include tree removal either, however if they do it frequently and are smart would have it added to policy.

Furthermore, are they covered properly in their workers compensation? Seriously doubt it.. in our area workers comp is higher for tree companies than for landscapers.. Now not sure about roofers - as their workers comp is likely fairly high as well.. but if they added tree removal to their workers comp it still likely go up.

To do tree removals in some city's (a particular one comes to mind) in our area, you need (or the city bylaw states) a minimum of $3m liability insurance - and if you are working on municipal property it goes up to $5m. I could be wrong but doubt that any roofer and most landscapers are covered in the insurance side of it.

In fact in a couple of cities, to remove a tree (if it is not dead) you need to obtain a permit, and a CA is required to do some of the work (justify why tree is to be removed). If property size is over 3/4 acres then a proper plan needs to be submitted for any removals at all. Fine in once city for removal without proper paperwork is $1K per tree up to maximum of $20K.

Now .. having said that I see a lot of pickup truck and chainsaw guys around.. doubt they have the necessary paperwork.. but realistically if somebody does not report it nothing is done.



Well if the limb is already broken, nothing other than safety concerns and possibly insurance issues..

Realistically if they are properly trained, pay proper WSIB policy, have proper liability insurance, and bid the job properly (don't lowball ... then guess I won't complain too loudly.

My major issue is that most of these guys are:
a) flying under radar and not paying dues (insurance, WSIB, taxes, training, etc)
b) lowballing - causing havoc in industry on pricing

On the flip side, if there is a roof that has an obvious need of repair.. should I send guys in to do it? I have dump trailer, ladders, ropes, an air compressor.. Does this make me a roofer?

Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave.

I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............

 

[jefflovstrom]

Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave.

I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............

Feel the passion!!!!!

 

[Darin]

Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave.

I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............

Educating customers is a great way to sell.

 

[sgreanbeans]

In my area, its all tree guys, you may see the landscaper improperly pruning some ornamental's from time to time, but most of the bigger company's call in the tree guys, unfortunately they don't call the right ones!
Did, some years ago, watch a mower guy remove a branch from a Maple that was getting in his way while riding his Zero turn,Nothing wrong with it other than he had to lean over to get under it was a big, low branch. 20" dia, prob 25-30ft long, about 5' above the ground, started cutting about 2ft' away from the trunk, when it let go, it peeled all the way down to the ground,peel was HUGE and WIDE, landed on his mower, busting the left steering handle right off, breaking one of his gas tanks and broke a bracket for the deck! Bet he doesn't do that anymore!
Karma at its best!
Poor Tree! It was removed a few years later.

 

[redheadwoodshed]

I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.

 

[Darin]

I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.

Not all states are the same. I like your laws!!

 

[Treepedo]

Many of my best clients are landscapers. They take full advantage of me because I help with their trees and any of the plants under the trees including turf. They really appreciate and return the favor with more tree work. We are all landscapers who do tree work. We all fall under the Horticulture umbrella.
Arboriculture/arborists should be able to identify and know all woody plants and their cultivation and leave the turf, annuals and perrenials to the landscaper it is great partnership that works well.
The few who do the wrong thing eventually see that what they are doing is not getting them more biz. So they either go out of business or make the necessary changes.
Canada is brutal place to do tree work in. Arboriculture is a voluntary trade so basically I never see an easy removal or pruning jobs and if I do, there is no profit.

I was talking to a guy today that posed an interesting question: Where do you see the arborist industry going? In your opinion, how many Arborists are strickly arborists? In other words, are there a lot of landscapers doing arborist type work? If so, has that trend been growing in recent years?
I personally, when I sold equipment saw the number rise. I think the education on this subject has dropped significantly. Some landscapers know there stuff, but some are just out to make a buck. Arborists arent alone. Some know what there doing (majority) some don't. Are landscapers taking work away from arborists? Is the do-it-all business taking over?

I thought these were very valid and interesting questions and would like some feedback from both sides if possible.
Darin

 

[TreeClimber57]

I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.

As long as they are flexible enough. Some guys only do removals, some only stump grinding.. etc.

So I would certain ally be in favor of something that controlled the market a bit, discouraged the week-end hacks, and brought some sanity to the pricing.

Something that would allow you to license for specific areas of aboriculture - and if you only wanted to do removals, then it would cover that alone.. part of licensing should also have to prove you are properly insured. ($3-5M minimum)..

Proper 3rd party training perhaps mandatory, but should not need to pass any test with Gov't. If you can prove you have been trained or passed test elsewhere, should be adequate. Training should be only on what you want to do.. if doing removals than maybe on some chainsaw safety, something on felling, or climbing.. not sure.. but related to what you do.

 

[TreeClimber57]

As long as they are flexible enough. Some guys only do removals, some only stump grinding.. etc.

So I would certain ally be in favor of something that controlled the market a bit, discouraged the week-end hacks, and brought some sanity to the pricing.

Something that would allow you to license for specific areas of aboriculture - and if you only wanted to do removals, then it would cover that alone.. part of licensing should also have to prove you are properly insured. ($3-5M minimum)..

Proper 3rd party training perhaps mandatory, but should not need to pass any test with Gov't. If you can prove you have been trained or passed test elsewhere, should be adequate. Training should be only on what you want to do.. if doing removals than maybe on some chainsaw safety, something on felling, or climbing.. not sure.. but related to what you do.

Oh and fines should be stiff enough to discourage week-end hacks from bypassing rules.

Proper training, with regular updated (maybe every 3 to 5 years), proof of insurance.. should be all that is necessary.

 

[TreeClimber57]

Many of my best clients are landscapers. They take full advantage of me because I help with their trees and any of the plants under the trees including turf. They really appreciate and return the favor with more tree work. We are all landscapers who do tree work. We all fall under the Horticulture umbrella.
Arboriculture/arborists should be able to identify and know all woody plants and their cultivation and leave the turf, annuals and perrenials to the landscaper it is great partnership that works well.
The few who do the wrong thing eventually see that what they are doing is not getting them more biz. So they either go out of business or make the necessary changes.
Canada is brutal place to do tree work in. Arboriculture is a voluntary trade so basically I never see an easy removal or pruning jobs and if I do, there is no profit.

I agree we all fall under landscaper title in some way maybe. But Aboriculture and Horticulture is not the same in my mind. Horticulture is a different science and trade, and usually more in line with what is typically thought of as landscaper. ( does not mean that arborists are not landscapers, but I think most people tend to think along lines of horticulture when landscaping is mentioned - but for sure tree planting and care is part of it )

Definition: Arboriculture is the art, science, technology and business of tree care. Arboriculture is practiced by arborists. Arborists are trained to promote tree health, discern tree problems and take measures to correct them.

Definition: Horticulture is the science or art of cultivating fruits, vegetables, flowers, or ornamental plants. Etymologically, "horticulture" can be broken down into two Latin words: hortus (garden) and cultus (tilling). As William L. George explains in his definition of horticulture:

"Horticulture involves five areas of study. These areas are floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops), landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants), olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables), pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits), and postharvest physiology which involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops."

Partnering with a landscaper or several can make good partnership for sure. But most landscapers do not have the skills, training nor tools to properly perform aboriculture. Just many of them do not realize it !

 

[TMFARM 2009]

lets face it,most customers will look at the trade as they need someone to get rid of that tree or prune this one cause its dead on one side.... they will be suffering from the walmart syndrome. i say the landscapers the tree cutters and the true arborist should work together to better serve the public... this means from all sides... i have jobs mostly cleaning fence rows and downed wood in my area....i have run into people who want the tree dropped cause it has grown against the side of the house and there is only twenty feet of clearance between houses...this is where i call a pro for the customer.if i need landscaping i call them... tree's need pruned i know a guy who is a pro at that....they also call me when they get a job where the farmer wants a woods or tree line cleared...i know some finer points in dropping trees like how to spin it before it drops,bore cutting for furniture grade logs etc.but i wouldn't try pruning my own trees...long story short the do all company with true pros for different things will excel. just my opinion.

 

[redheadwoodshed]

Again, I'm new to this and I didn't really like going through all the rigamarole.But the licsense only cost about $200 dollars.That includes the study books for the test and the test.It is done by the state, but the seminars you have to attend are done by private educators, and the are about 85$ each and you have to do 1 a year.They have 2 arborist licsense.Arborist and utility arborist, for power line and right-of-ways.Horticulture has it's own licsenses.100,000$ worth of insurance is required also, although the least my agent will write a policy on is $300,000,about 600$ a year.

 

[Treepedo]

Please, have a look at Richard Harris Professor Emeritus Deptmant of Enviro Hort. University of California text book Arboriculture Integrated Management of Landscape Trees Shrubs and Vines.This is and should be the standard manual for Arborists and Horticulture programs. Arboriculture falls under Landscape Horticulture. His definitions are quite different than what you are presenting.
The one who dominates this industry is generally no different than other industries. It is the one with knowledge and ability to communicate it in a way that makes the sale. Some people are open minded to what I sell and even value it enough to sign the contract and others are not and will give that work to the lowest bidder and that is what makes earning a living difficult in Canada.
IMO people with post secondary education higher with the equivalent and everything esle goes to the wolves. If you run with the wolves, you go down with pack. Arbriculture is not the specimen tree it is the whole enviro in and around the trees, it is essentially a micro-forest and that is our greatest fault in this industry we treat trees like they have no father, mother, brother sister. Arboricultur is a branch of horticulture and falls under plant sciences same as forestry. I do some forestry work but always consult Register Forester when it gets involved.
Who dominates is extremely difficult to answer in Canada but one thing for sure, the better you are able to communicate the best practice and share the best information, the easier the sale.

I agree we all fall under landscaper title in some way maybe. But Aboriculture and Horticulture is not the same in my mind. Horticulture is a different science and trade, and usually more in line with what is typically thought of as landscaper. ( does not mean that arborists are not landscapers, but I think most people tend to think along lines of horticulture when landscaping is mentioned - but for sure tree planting and care is part of it )

Definition: Arboriculture is the art, science, technology and business of tree care. Arboriculture is practiced by arborists. Arborists are trained to promote tree health, discern tree problems and take measures to correct them.

Definition: Horticulture is the science or art of cultivating fruits, vegetables, flowers, or ornamental plants. Etymologically, "horticulture" can be broken down into two Latin words: hortus (garden) and cultus (tilling). As William L. George explains in his definition of horticulture:

"Horticulture involves five areas of study. These areas are floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops), landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants), olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables), pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits), and postharvest physiology which involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops."

Partnering with a landscaper or several can make good partnership for sure. But most landscapers do not have the skills, training nor tools to properly perform aboriculture. Just many of them do not realize it !

 

[TreeClimber57]

although the least my agent will write a policy on is $300,000,about 600$ a year.

$300K.. is this for tree services?

We need minimum $5m to work on municipal or gov't jobs.. and we carry $10m. $300k seems a little light if for tree services (at least if you do any removals - and if on any commercial or municipal properties especially).

 

[jefflovstrom]

$300K.. is this for tree services?

We need minimum $5m to work on municipal or gov't jobs.. and we carry $10m. $300k seems a little light if for tree services (at least if you do any removals - and if on any commercial or municipal properties especially).

Well, what can 300k get you in Looseyanna?
Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Rftreeman]

One of the biggest companies out there does both and so do I, I don't really see the big problem some people have with it, if I mow the lawn and trim the shrubs what's the problem if I do the trees also, if I'm legit and doing both side right what's the big deal....