I think it is who you market to and your region.
Jeff
Jeff
who dominates this industry?
- Thread starter Darin
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squad143
Tree Guy
IMO, unless there is some form of regulation, I see it remaining relatively the same. When times are tough, you see a lot more landscapers (& others) branching into tree care/service, However, regardless of economic conditions, you will always have people dabbling into tree work for some extra $, in addition to those who will specialize in the care of trees.
redheadwoodshed
Freebird
I'm just saying what the law is (100k) you can get as much insurance as you want, most insurance co. or the ones I talked to wouln't write less than 300k.
newsawtooth
ArboristSite Operative
The industry is stratified. Certainly, the top is dominated by companies that provide more services than just pruning and removal of trees. In my area, they are the companies that provide insect and disease control as well as lawn services and Christmas decorations. I don't need to tell any of you that the money made from spraying trees and lawns dwarfs revenues from trimming and removals. This multi service approach seems to be the model that provides the steadiest revenues. Diversified companies with varied capabilities which are less dependent on the old trim and remove game. Beneath these companies, the industry is dominated by the lowest bidder, which is usually where I find myself.
Now, where does it go from here? Darin, have your opinions changed since you first posed this question? Jeffers, any idea where the industry is headed? Maybe your beard holds the key?
Now, where does it go from here? Darin, have your opinions changed since you first posed this question? Jeffers, any idea where the industry is headed? Maybe your beard holds the key?
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I feel it's heading toward walmart tree and landscape services. It's a shame but inevitable the big names get the gravy and the rest fight over the crumbs. I see it quickly moving that direction.
imagineero
Addicted to ArboristSite
It's a decent question, but I think it's one you can ask not just of the tree industry but of industry in general. I'm not sure if you guys stateside use the words 'profession' and 'trade' to describe different types of jobs, but over in aus, trades are things like plumbing, electricians, builders, tilers, plasterers, mechanics, metalworkers, fitters, machinists etc...
I think tree work can be lumped fairly firmly into the trades section, and at least in aus, most trades have fairly similar hourly chargeout potential for business owners, though interestingly the hourly wages earned by those in different trades varies. The hourly chargeout rate a business owner can charge in aus generally ranges between $60~$90/hour with $50 at the extreme lowend. It's hard to make more than $100/hour in any trade unless its very specialised.
My experience is that the most profitable trades are those which have low equipment requirements and low risk. I'd put plumbing, electrical, tiling, plastering in this category. You can fit yourself out for less than $1000 in most of those trades (vehicle aside), the tools last a long time, and the risk to life is fairly low. This means that insurance rates are reasonable. You have materials costs, certainly, but these are charged out on top of the hourly rate. It's easy for newcomers to the industry (with enough skills and experience) to startup a small business, and do well at it. The level of profit is high, and you do see a lot of sole traders.
Then comes those trades which are equipment-centric but low risk. I'd put building, metalworking, machining, mechanics into this category. You need more like $20k to get yourself into building (not including vehicle), or more like $100k+ to get yourself into machining, metalworking, etc. For this reason, you see a lot more people working in the trade for others than working for themselves. It simply costs too much to get started, and because of the large capital costs in the setup, hourly rates are a lot lower for workers than in less equipment-centric trades. A lot less people will go into business for themselves. These industries are highly regulated also, so they are less profitable. Talking to long term builders for example I find that they have to keep adding money to their working capital each year just to make the same turnover. Most are barely keeping pace with inflation while making only a similar wage to other trades, which means that for many they would have been better off financially if they gave up their trade, invested their working capital elsewhere and took on another job which didn't need investment. Equipment constantly needs updating or repairing, and this reduces profits as compared with trades that don't need as much gear. In these industries, materials are charged on top of hourly rates.
Finally we have equipment centric high risk jobs. While trying to compile this list, I couldn't come up with too many. Tree work, certainly. I'd put deep sea fishing in there too. Mining is tempting, but isn't valid because the setup costs, risks and profits are in a whole other league. There are other high risk jobs, but not too many I can think of that are so equipment-centric.
So lets talk about tree work. To run a real tree company, you need to have a truck, right? Maybe a bucket truck, a chipper, possibly a stump grinder, saws, ropes, saddles, miscellaneous gear (a big one that last one!). To get into it for real, how much money are we talking? $50k? More? Could easily be more with a new big truck and a new big chipper. The equipment also breaks down faster than in almost any other comparable industry, and should be replaced or at least re-certified more often that it is. In mining, for example, you wont find people using bucket trucks of the standard that we use. The risk, is also high. Risk is cumulative, so over time.... you will definitely hurt yourself. It's simply a question of how much. This risk brings higher insurance premiums, and more regulation. Added to that is increasing environmental regulation or both tree work, and equipment. Interestingly, we don't charge extra for materials. Rock a chain? I guess you'll just have to absorb that cost. Damage your chipper? Oh well, I guess it's hamburger helper for dinner this week. Same story with fuel, oil etc... equipment maintenance costs are significant.
Yet tree work doesn't really pay higher than any other trade. I think a lot of the new starters to the business simply wont bother building up to being a bigger business. Everyone in this industry made a start at some point, and it was probably as a hack, or at least as an idiot working for someone who knew what they were doing. There's no straightforward career path with treework as there is with other trades, so what you learn depends on how you got there. And there's no corporate ladder either.... over time, you might move from being the groundie to being the guy running the saw. Got big aspirations? You might someday run a few crews yourself! Pray that you don't though... the cash flow nightmares will ruin your sleep. Better you just keep running that saw.
I'm running a small tree business as a sideline to building. I have to keep building houses so I can afford to do tree work. At least it fills up time between jobs. I don't have a truck, a chipper, a bucket truck or a stump grinder. I have a couple of trailers and a wagon. Saws, ropes, saddle etc. I do alright this way. I'll never put money in to expand this business because I just cant see it ever coming back. I think the future of the industry is less and less big players, and more and more small timers with chainsaws and utes. The big players will get bigger, for sure, and as per the above poster I can definitely see walmart tree removals as being a happening thing, with staff paid at walmart income levels also.... because big business know the real cost of business.
I think the vast majority of the work will be done by ute and saw guys, gardeners, handymen etc. The technical removals need technical skills, but there are enough small time guys out there who can do this sort of work without all the big investment. I Just keep at it because I like the work.
Shaun
I think tree work can be lumped fairly firmly into the trades section, and at least in aus, most trades have fairly similar hourly chargeout potential for business owners, though interestingly the hourly wages earned by those in different trades varies. The hourly chargeout rate a business owner can charge in aus generally ranges between $60~$90/hour with $50 at the extreme lowend. It's hard to make more than $100/hour in any trade unless its very specialised.
My experience is that the most profitable trades are those which have low equipment requirements and low risk. I'd put plumbing, electrical, tiling, plastering in this category. You can fit yourself out for less than $1000 in most of those trades (vehicle aside), the tools last a long time, and the risk to life is fairly low. This means that insurance rates are reasonable. You have materials costs, certainly, but these are charged out on top of the hourly rate. It's easy for newcomers to the industry (with enough skills and experience) to startup a small business, and do well at it. The level of profit is high, and you do see a lot of sole traders.
Then comes those trades which are equipment-centric but low risk. I'd put building, metalworking, machining, mechanics into this category. You need more like $20k to get yourself into building (not including vehicle), or more like $100k+ to get yourself into machining, metalworking, etc. For this reason, you see a lot more people working in the trade for others than working for themselves. It simply costs too much to get started, and because of the large capital costs in the setup, hourly rates are a lot lower for workers than in less equipment-centric trades. A lot less people will go into business for themselves. These industries are highly regulated also, so they are less profitable. Talking to long term builders for example I find that they have to keep adding money to their working capital each year just to make the same turnover. Most are barely keeping pace with inflation while making only a similar wage to other trades, which means that for many they would have been better off financially if they gave up their trade, invested their working capital elsewhere and took on another job which didn't need investment. Equipment constantly needs updating or repairing, and this reduces profits as compared with trades that don't need as much gear. In these industries, materials are charged on top of hourly rates.
Finally we have equipment centric high risk jobs. While trying to compile this list, I couldn't come up with too many. Tree work, certainly. I'd put deep sea fishing in there too. Mining is tempting, but isn't valid because the setup costs, risks and profits are in a whole other league. There are other high risk jobs, but not too many I can think of that are so equipment-centric.
So lets talk about tree work. To run a real tree company, you need to have a truck, right? Maybe a bucket truck, a chipper, possibly a stump grinder, saws, ropes, saddles, miscellaneous gear (a big one that last one!). To get into it for real, how much money are we talking? $50k? More? Could easily be more with a new big truck and a new big chipper. The equipment also breaks down faster than in almost any other comparable industry, and should be replaced or at least re-certified more often that it is. In mining, for example, you wont find people using bucket trucks of the standard that we use. The risk, is also high. Risk is cumulative, so over time.... you will definitely hurt yourself. It's simply a question of how much. This risk brings higher insurance premiums, and more regulation. Added to that is increasing environmental regulation or both tree work, and equipment. Interestingly, we don't charge extra for materials. Rock a chain? I guess you'll just have to absorb that cost. Damage your chipper? Oh well, I guess it's hamburger helper for dinner this week. Same story with fuel, oil etc... equipment maintenance costs are significant.
Yet tree work doesn't really pay higher than any other trade. I think a lot of the new starters to the business simply wont bother building up to being a bigger business. Everyone in this industry made a start at some point, and it was probably as a hack, or at least as an idiot working for someone who knew what they were doing. There's no straightforward career path with treework as there is with other trades, so what you learn depends on how you got there. And there's no corporate ladder either.... over time, you might move from being the groundie to being the guy running the saw. Got big aspirations? You might someday run a few crews yourself! Pray that you don't though... the cash flow nightmares will ruin your sleep. Better you just keep running that saw.
I'm running a small tree business as a sideline to building. I have to keep building houses so I can afford to do tree work. At least it fills up time between jobs. I don't have a truck, a chipper, a bucket truck or a stump grinder. I have a couple of trailers and a wagon. Saws, ropes, saddle etc. I do alright this way. I'll never put money in to expand this business because I just cant see it ever coming back. I think the future of the industry is less and less big players, and more and more small timers with chainsaws and utes. The big players will get bigger, for sure, and as per the above poster I can definitely see walmart tree removals as being a happening thing, with staff paid at walmart income levels also.... because big business know the real cost of business.
I think the vast majority of the work will be done by ute and saw guys, gardeners, handymen etc. The technical removals need technical skills, but there are enough small time guys out there who can do this sort of work without all the big investment. I Just keep at it because I like the work.
Shaun
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Personally I hate government legislation..
But.. given what is going on in the tree industry.. I think that some control is necessary.
a) make it illegal to run a tree service company without some sort of license -- and enforce it
b) make it impossible to get such license without proof of formal training OR a certain level of experience for another company OR proof of owing a legitimate company yourself for a period of time maybe 5 years.. license would cover only what you had been trained in..
c) make it impossible to get such license without proof of insurance and workers comp coverage up to minimum level -- insurance must specifically cover type of work that is shown in license (ie: if doing removals then insurance must specify removals)
Now that alone will not get rid of all the hacks.. or all the lowballers.. but it would do something to clean up the industry.
Problem is if gov't gets involved they always over complicate things and put in stupid legislation as they do not know what they are doing.. some person sitting behind desk determine how things should be done.
But.. given what is going on in the tree industry.. I think that some control is necessary.
a) make it illegal to run a tree service company without some sort of license -- and enforce it
b) make it impossible to get such license without proof of formal training OR a certain level of experience for another company OR proof of owing a legitimate company yourself for a period of time maybe 5 years.. license would cover only what you had been trained in..
c) make it impossible to get such license without proof of insurance and workers comp coverage up to minimum level -- insurance must specifically cover type of work that is shown in license (ie: if doing removals then insurance must specify removals)
Now that alone will not get rid of all the hacks.. or all the lowballers.. but it would do something to clean up the industry.
Problem is if gov't gets involved they always over complicate things and put in stupid legislation as they do not know what they are doing.. some person sitting behind desk determine how things should be done.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Gummit also gonna take a bunch of yer money for this and squander it away to people that stay home all day and watch big screen and get section 8 housing.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah.. reality and the pain of everything they touch.
thejdman04
Addicted to ArboristSite
Around here, there are very few if any true arborist/full time tree guys. Most everyone around here is a landscaper, who does tree work. It is esp rare to find somone who climbs around this area
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
How do you guys get a big tree down over a roof? Likely the "out of town expert"?
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Interesting situation.
Now have you ever stopped to think about why that is? Not sure of your situation, the area, amount of work, what people are willing to pay, etc.
But if nobody is there, then one might assume the market is either not large enough or the market is too depressed price wise to support the industry. Normally there are a few guys who will start up a legitimate full fledged tree company in any area I have been to, but I will admit my global travels are somewhat limited.. so I have no idea of your situation, or what reason might be..
Do you have any idea why this is so..
thejdman04
Addicted to ArboristSite
There are a few landscaping companies around with bucket trucks. But like I said there really aren't any full fledged tree guys around, but there are a few landscape guys that dabble in trees. That is not saying they aren't professionals, or that they don't do a good job, just saying that there are very few full fledged tree companies in my area that only do tree work. I only know of 2 guys in quite a big area that will climb and do tree removals that way, and both of them are "out of town" but will come to this area.
I guess you have to consider the segment of the industry. If you look at line clearance, there is serious dominance by just a few companies.
The residential/commercial market is gigantic. Even with big companies that may seem like they are getting all the work, if you look at the numbers of potential clients, their market share is relatively small. On commercial properties, I think the projects do tend to lean towards larger companies, because they have the resources to service large contracts in a timely fashion, as well as being large enough to service multiple jobsites, say in the case of a management company that could have many properties.
The residential/commercial market is gigantic. Even with big companies that may seem like they are getting all the work, if you look at the numbers of potential clients, their market share is relatively small. On commercial properties, I think the projects do tend to lean towards larger companies, because they have the resources to service large contracts in a timely fashion, as well as being large enough to service multiple jobsites, say in the case of a management company that could have many properties.
thejdman04
Addicted to ArboristSite
I believe it to be that this is fairly wide open country, relatively speaking, its not the great plains but it isn't new york either. Most trees can be dropped with no bucket trucks or climbers, and the ones that can't are done with bucket trucks. Most houses have yards etc big enough to get a bucket truck around. There are a few landscaping companies with bucket trucks that grab most of the tree work, if a bucket truck is required. If it is a simple tree drop, around here, especially lately, literally you can put it on craigslist, and 10 people will come take the wood for free. Guys are just trying to heat their homes, and some are trying to make a buck, any money. They are cutting down trees splitting it and selling the firewood. The market has gotten so bad that people are selling firewood, seasoned and split for 55 dollars, delivered and stacked for 1/3rd of a cord. Hardly any profit in it. Any ads for firewood I see on craigslist(ie come take my tree down and you can get/keep the wood for taking my tree down), are gone very quickly. Once the economy picks up, and people have money to take trees down, and some people go back to their "normal" job I think the situation may change a bit but for right now this is the way it is. There are tons of ash trees in my area dead because of eab, some that will need to be removed by a climber/truck and the trees have been dead for awhile, but the trees remain standing. They need to be taken down, some have the bark off and wood pecker holes in them, you can see they are dead, and starting to rot and decay and people just don't remove them, I think mostly because of the economy. Around here the economy is real bad, (as it is in most places), I sell firewood and talk to everyone from equipment operators, office managers, school teachers about every profession out there, and most everyone is hurting, and just struggling to keep and put food on the table, they aren't worried about the dead tree in their yard, that is leaning over their house, even though they should be.
Everybody knows that timber fallers dominate the industry!
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hoping and praying.. but seems to be taking a long time to get there.. Problem is due to some incompetent leadership in various places (not just U.S.!!).. the whole world has gotten into a deep hole.. and personal, municipal, national debt is holding it there. We can only hope and pray.. just don't hold your breath waiting.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I don't think I know what a "binne man" is, but I can take a stab..
AND
If all the timber fallers quit falling timber, eventually, the whole freakin world would come to a hault. . No more wood, weather it be veneer, pulp, or fuel, would wreak havoc BIG TIME all across the globe. .
I think binne man would be thinking about jumping out a window. . .
IMO. . .
AND
If all the timber fallers quit falling timber, eventually, the whole freakin world would come to a hault. . No more wood, weather it be veneer, pulp, or fuel, would wreak havoc BIG TIME all across the globe. .
I think binne man would be thinking about jumping out a window. . .
IMO. . .
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