Who here is into circle mills?

[ChainsawmanXX]

My dad and I have recently bought a circular mill with some other equiptment. Was wondering who else here runs em?
Also have some questions about it. Iv been reading up as much as I can on the mill. Were rubbing our "out of the saw" guide pin out like a S.O.B and having a taper in the boards. Any suggestions?

 

[Cantdog]

My dad and I have recently bought a circular mill with some other equiptment. Was wondering who else here runs em?
Also have some questions about it. Iv been reading up as much as I can on the mill. Were rubbing our "out of the saw" guide pin out like a S.O.B and having a taper in the boards. Any suggestions?

There are a number of reasons this but first off it sounds like your carrage is not adjusted properly front to rear....clamp a short piece if edging in your sawyers favorite or whatever your headstock is and then clamp another piece at the other end of the carrage...these two sticks representing a cant so they need to be firmly against the vertical part of the carrage....then with the saw at speed advance the carrage until you've cut both pieces off......they should be the same length.

 

[boatman]

Have you had the blade hammered?

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

Hey robin!
I didnt try the stick idea (not yet at least!) I measured it with a tape measure and its alittle under an eight of an inch off.

Yep! Blade was hammered last month, still has a nice dish in it.

 

[Cantdog]

Hey robin!
I didnt try the stick idea (not yet at least!) I measured it with a tape measure and its alittle under an eight of an inch off.

Yep! Blade was hammered last month, still has a nice dish in it.

The reason for using sticks is that ALL adjustments to guides. lead, carrage alignment or any thing else that relates to the saw plate must be done with the saw spun up to speed as the saw is not in the same place/plane at rest as it is when running. When the saw is spun upto the correct speed the dish should dissappear and the saw look flat...that is when you adjust your leading guides...can't be done at rest. It's pretty scary working that close to a spinning saw plate but there is no other way. So be careful and stay focused.....

 

[Cantdog]

Ja-cub...that saw is a 52" right?? What RPM did you have that saw hammered to???? And how do you know how fast you are spinning the arbor??? Do you have a handheld tack????

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

Ok robin, im going to check with the sticks tomorrow. Threw a couple off cottonwood logs on the deck today so after I check the carriage ill buzz them up and see how they come out. Cause it will saw real good for about 2 logs then it cuts wacko!

Also some of our teeth are not getting exactly straight, any advice on setting the jockey grinder STRAIGHT?

Heres some pictures of the guide.
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[ChainsawmanXX]

Couple of other pictures.

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[ChainsawmanXX]

Ja-cub...that saw is a 52" right?? What RPM did you have that saw hammered to???? And how do you know how fast you are spinning the arbor??? Do you have a handheld tack????

Yep 52" and its hammered to 600.

Dont have a handheld tack... Ill have to see if I can go borrow one.

 

[Cantdog]

Yep 52" and its hammered to 600.

Dont have a handheld tack... Ill have to see if I can go borrow one.

Ok..it's very crucial to have the saw turning exactly the rpm it was hammered for....you're running directly off a diesel right?? So the speed is easily changed....

Those pics of the guides show them to be pretty typical...the forward and back adjust looks good, running just below the collets. But as I said the guide blocks need to be adjusted to run just against the saw plate with the saw at speed... not at rest. Again this adjustment is completely dependent on the rpm being corect. What are you using for guide blocks??? They should be lignum vitae as that is about the only material that wears well in this situation. I have replaced mine once in about 250,000 bdft....

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

Ok..it's very crucial to have the saw turning exactly the rpm it was hammered for....you're running directly off a diesel right?? So the speed is easily changed....

Those pics of the guides show them to be pretty typical...the forward and back adjust looks good, running just below the collets. But as I said the guide blocks need to be adjusted to run just against the saw plate with the saw at speed... not at rest. Again this adjustment is completely dependent on the rpm being corect. What are you using for guide blocks??? They should be lignum vitae as that is about the only material that wears well in this situation. I have replaced mine once in about 250,000 bdft....

Running off a Detroit. Im sure its turning at 600. But ill go see if the auto parts store can rent me one?

The guide had to be welded up, the cast was cracking. Yep dad adjusted them while running. Were using Hickory now, we were using dried up walnut. The hickory and locust seems to work the best. We'v changed the guide closest to the track 3 times in probably 3000ft

 

[Cantdog]

Running off a Detroit. Im sure its turning at 600. But ill go see if the auto parts store can rent me one?

The guide had to be welded up, the cast was cracking. Yep dad adjusted them while running. Were using Hickory now, we were using dried up walnut. The hickory and locust seems to work the best. We'v changed the guide closest to the track 3 times in probably 3000ft

Yeah that's way to frequent even using local wood for guides....there are probably a number of small problems that combine to make one large problem.

I have a large mechanical hand tack but they sell digital infrared ones that you just stick a bit of reflective tape on what ever you want to check...point and shoot...slick..and not all that expensive. Does your diesel have it' own tack?? Knowing your saw speed is very important because if you are not sure then every other adjustment you make is just guessing. Also there is another factor to sawing lumber with a rig like yours....and that is the human element and gauging your feed rate to the size and hardness of your wood. For most cuts you can't just haul the handle back and cut at full feed you have to "feather" the feed....you cant feel it and hear it when it's cutting as fast as it can without overfeeding or underfeeding. The same as a chainsaw... you can bog even the most powerful and high rpm saw by not letting it do the cutting and bearing down on it to hard...This takes some people a while to learn...some never do and don't mill lumber very long due to the frustration they creat for themselves. Not sayin this is the problem here but I have seen it before.....

When you are sawing tapered boards do they start correctly and get thinner as it gets closer to the end of the cut???

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

Yeah that's way to frequent even using local wood for guides....there are probably a number of small problems that combine to make one large problem.

I have a large mechanical hand tack but they sell digital infrared ones that you just stick a bit of reflective tape on what ever you want to check...point and shoot...slick..and not all that expensive. Does your diesel have it' own tack?? Knowing your saw speed is very important because if you are not sure then every other adjustment you make is just guessing. Also there is another factor to sawing lumber with a rig like yours....and that is the human element and gauging your feed rate to the size and hardness of your wood. For most cuts you can't just haul the handle back and cut at full feed you have to "feather" the feed....you cant feel it and hear it when it's cutting as fast as it can without overfeeding or underfeeding. The same as a chainsaw... you can bog even the most powerful and high rpm saw by not letting it do the cutting and bearing down on it to hard...This takes some people a while to learn...some never do and don't mill lumber very long due to the frustration they creat for themselves. Not sayin this is the problem here but I have seen it before.....

When you are sawing tapered boards do they start correctly and get thinner as it gets closer to the end of the cut???

Ok, the carriage is good. We cut the boards and they came out perfect!
Still getting off logs. I think it may be out of lead? Everytime the blade goes out of the log it flops around and there is probably 1/2" gao between the blade and the back of the log.

The taper is usually wider to the back, usually about a 1/4 of an inch.
It seems dad is cuttin it good, and slow. Doesnt bog the engine to bad. Even in the big oak.
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[Cantdog]

Ok, the carriage is good. We cut the boards and they came out perfect!
Still getting off logs. I think it may be out of lead? Everytime the blade goes out of the log it flops around and there is probably 1/2" gao between the blade and the back of the log.

The taper is usually wider to the back, usually about a 1/4 of an inch.
It seems dad is cuttin it good, and slow. Doesnt bog the engine to bad. Even in the big oak.
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OK It probably is your lead and perhaps the filing can you post a couple pics of your file rig showing the whole thing and the adjustments??

Floping around coming out of the cut is not good...blade is heating up....how does your splitter line up with the cut side of the cant....it should run right along the side of the cant....


Again the progression adjustments has to start with knowing you are at the correct rpm and that your govenor is not letting your power unit slow down when it comes under load...this is perhaps the most important thing to address when setting up an accurate saw mill.

Using your stick again clamped at the head of the carrage cut it off...then advance the carrage and move the stick to the back rim of the blade and stop right at the teeth...you should have about 1/16" or just a tad less for hardwood ...again this is with the saw at speed.

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

OK It probably is your lead and perhaps the filing can you post a couple pics of your file rig showing the whole thing and the adjustments??

Floping around coming out of the cut is not good...blade is heating up....how does your splitter line up with the cut side of the cant....it should run right along the side of the cant....


Again the progression adjustments has to start with knowing you are at the correct rpm and that your govenor is not letting your power unit slow down when it comes under load...this is perhaps the most important thing to address when setting up an accurate saw mill.

Using your stick again clamped at the head of the carrage cut it off...then advance the carrage and move the stick to the back rim of the blade and stop right at the teeth...you should have about 1/16" or just a tad less for hardwood ...again this is with the saw at speed.

Ill get a picture of the jockey grinder set up.
What could be the cause of the blade flopping?
Something interesting. The first cottonwood log dad sawed up. Didnt cut good at all! Well I hoped up on the seat and gave her a whirl. (my first time sawing) all the boards from there on except for 2 cut alot better! For the next 2 logs. (I love sawing logs now!! Haha)

Ill try to get a tach and check it out.

 

[Cantdog]

Ill get a picture of the jockey grinder set up.
What could be the cause of the blade flopping?
Something interesting. The first cottonwood log dad sawed up. Didnt cut good at all! Well I hoped up on the seat and gave her a whirl. (my first time sawing) all the boards from there on except for 2 cut alot better! For the next 2 logs. (I love sawing logs now!! Haha)

Ill try to get a tach and check it out.

The reason the blade is floppy is that it is getting to hot or the wrong rpm or both...I am assuming that if it runs out of the cut for a couple minutes it cools off and straightens back out???yes??? Every time the blade gets hot enough to get floppy it takes a little bit of tension out of it and you are that much closer to another hammering so it's important to find out what is wrong and cure it. As I said there a "feel" to sawing.....if you crowd it..the saw will get to hot....if you lallygag around in the cut the saw gets to hot..you have to find the correct combination of feed and speed of cut.

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

The reason the blade is floppy is that it is getting to hot or the wrong rpm or both...I am assuming that if it runs out of the cut for a couple minutes it cools off and straightens back out???yes??? Every time the blade gets hot enough to get floppy it takes a little bit of tension out of it and you are that much closer to another hammering so it's important to find out what is wrong and cure it. As I said there a "feel" to sawing.....if you crowd it..the saw will get to hot....if you lallygag around in the cut the saw gets to hot..you have to find the correct combination of feed and speed of cut.[ok/QUOTE]

Ok, the carriage is good robin. Found an ol timer (in his 80's and still cuttin a load of logs a day! ) hes been helping alittle he thinks its in the teeth.
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I also noticed small ridges on the top of the shoulders, should these be filed flat??

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Also mounted some new sweeps.

 

[Cantdog]

My file rig is cranked buy hand but uses the same kind of round file card. There are forward and aft adjustments as well as left to right (tilt) this should be adjusted to your lead so that the cutting edge is still 90 degrees to the cut.....once the lead set is correct...

It is very hard to help much from this distance as all adjustments must be done in order, and accurately, once other items have been eliminated as many adjustments reley on the previous adjustments being made correctly. Is the ol' guy a sawyer or a wood cutter?? If he is a local sawyer, he may well be your best bet......I could help but one thing affects the next thing and if you can't eliminate things in a logical order you are really just chasing your tail and I probably can't help... Sorry... but you seem to want be grasping at "quick fix" straws......believe me I do understand...but until you understand what the machine does and what it needs you will not saw lumber well or accurately....I have sent many PM's and regular postings with questions and suggestions that have been left unanswered concerning what I consider to be very important questions....so until you are ready to address this methodically, one thing at a time..I don't think I will be of much help..Sorry.... not trying to be meen but I am getting frustrated with inattention to facts that I am trying to enlighten you to. I have been battling a left hand rotary mill for the last 30 yrs or so, through freeze and thaw, so I do have some experience in these matters...My mill is over 100 yrs old, runs babbitt bearings, flat belts with a friction feed and still is capable of sawing up to 28-30 foot stock to within 1/16" to the tune of 1500-2000 BFT a day with a crew of one (me) and that includes sticking the lumber sawn that day and cleaning up edgings and slabs and filing for the next day...so...ya know.....you will learn every thing in a mill has a method and an order whether you learn it from me or some other way..again not trying to be harsh or rude but if you want learn the easy way you have to focus on the help offered..othewise it's the hard way....

 

[ChainsawmanXX]

My file rig is cranked buy hand but uses the same kind of round file card. There are forward and aft adjustments as well as left to right (tilt) this should be adjusted to your lead so that the cutting edge is still 90 degrees to the cut.....once the lead set is correct...

It is very hard to help much from this distance as all adjustments must be done in order, and accurately, once other items have been eliminated as many adjustments reley on the previous adjustments being made correctly. Is the ol' guy a sawyer or a wood cutter?? If he is a local sawyer, he may well be your best bet......I could help but one thing affects the next thing and if you can't eliminate things in a logical order you are really just chasing your tail and I probably can't help... Sorry... but you seem to want be grasping at "quick fix" straws......believe me I do understand...but until you understand what the machine does and what it needs you will not saw lumber well or accurately....I have sent many PM's and regular postings with questions and suggestions that have been left unanswered concerning what I consider to be very important questions....so until you are ready to address this methodically, one thing at a time..I don't think I will be of much help..Sorry.... not trying to be meen but I am getting frustrated with inattention to facts that I am trying to enlighten you to. I have been battling a left hand rotary mill for the last 30 yrs or so, through freeze and thaw, so I do have some experience in these matters...My mill is over 100 yrs old, runs babbitt bearings, flat belts with a friction feed and still is capable of sawing up to 28-30 foot stock to within 1/16" to the tune of 1500-2000 BFT a day with a crew of one (me) and that includes sticking the lumber sawn that day and cleaning up edgings and slabs and filing for the next day...so...ya know.....you will learn every thing in a mill has a method and an order whether you learn it from me or some other way..again not trying to be harsh or rude but if you want learn the easy way you have to focus on the help offered..othewise it's the hard way....

Hey robin, I know I havent anwsered some questions. Busy as a bee down here, taking care of my saws, and managing a girlfriend, running the mill, and taking care of my neice and neiphu at night while my sister is at work. Plus a couple other personal things, trying to set my prioroties and at the ripe age of rounding the bend of adulthood its not easy. Thanks for giving it to me straight, your right though. I would love to break down the whole mill and restore everything to the way it should be. But time and money (espeacially money) say other wise.
Its kind of a make it or break it situation, a small ma and pa operation trying to get by and in this economic downturn its probably a loosing battle.
This ol timer has his own mill (a retired sawyer) hes offered to come in and help us get the mill straightend up. I think he just likes tinkering with it all!

Do you have any pictures of your operation Robin?

 

[Cantdog]

Hey robin, I know I havent anwsered some questions. Busy as a bee down here, taking care of my saws, and managing a girlfriend, running the mill, and taking care of my neice and neiphu at night while my sister is at work. Plus a couple other personal things, trying to set my prioroties and at the ripe age of rounding the bend of adulthood its not easy. Thanks for giving it to me straight, your right though. I would love to break down the whole mill and restore everything to the way it should be. But time and money (espeacially money) say other wise.
Its kind of a make it or break it situation, a small ma and pa operation trying to get by and in this economic downturn its probably a loosing battle.
This ol timer has his own mill (a retired sawyer) hes offered to come in and help us get the mill straightend up. I think he just likes tinkering with it all!

Do you have any pictures of your operation Robin?

Excellent...if this ol' timer is local sawyer used to sawing the woods you're trying to saw then he is your best bet. I doubt your mill requires a complete tear down and rebuild...it just needs to be set up correctly. Once it is right on it will be much easier for you to keep it that way and you'll begin to see what it takes to keep it that way. I was somewhat more lucky in that when I bought my mill I had a partner who knew a fair amount about the mill as his father had built it from scratch from 2-3 burned up/ torn down mills/parts. Old Alton never had any money so he made stuff or remade stuff to his liking but made do with what he had and though his son knew much much more than I did about sawing, he was not a very hard worker and real poor with money not to mention very hard on any machinery that he touched. But he completely lacked his fathers ability to fix or make things...which is where I came in. I could weld and wrench pretty good so for a while we made a fair team and ran the mill daily as our only income for 2 1/2 yrs steady....I was never in as good shape in my life before or since....10-12hr days 6 days a week..Sunday being a day of fixing...not enough money for food or beer. It was a rough way to make a living...seemed like everytime you would start to pull ahead something major would fail. At the 2 1/2 yr mark we had the crankshaft in our diesel break and the loan was half paid off. So we were forced to go back into carpentry to make enough to keep the payments up and aquire a new power unit. That was the point that my partner said screw it "Let the bank have it".......however the loan was taken on my tax number and I was not about to let that happen so I bought out his 1/2 of operation and assumed the rest of the debt as well (another $1,000.00 lesson learned the hard way) I have had just about every part of this mill apart over the last 27 yrs. It's real hands on stuff and very hard to explain long distance to someone just starting out. You'll get there...you have it running...that is no small matter.....hopefully this ol guy will get you straightened out.

Oh and Jay-cub......I know you have alot on your plate and you're doing damn well at it for a guy your age....you see I was 31 when I started milling...58 now and still have alot to learn...you'll get get there with this ol mill...no doubt...be patient..listen...think and learn.

No... none of the pics I have are digital and they are few anyway.....