wood gasification boiler/furnace experiences

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Does anybody have experience with a Garn system? I've read a lot of positive things about their gassification system, but nobody in Upstate NY seems to have heard of them (or really of gassification for that matter). Any idea how much they run?

Who are considered the best companies on the market for wood furnaces/boilers? :confused:

From what I've read about Garn's.. and for anyone who doesn't know, Garn makes a gasifying boiler integrated with large water storage...

Pro's:
-Cost of boiler and storage up front all at once
-"Turn key" operation
-Storage and boiler all under same waranty

Con's:
-Large and heavy
-Boiler must heat the thermal mass of the storage before heat can be delivered to the house or DHW
-Cost of boiler and storage up front all at once
-Add on's can be tricky (i.e. solar water panels later on)
 
wood boilers

Ok, I'm new to this site, so please forgive any error in jumping in here. I thought about owb's, but isn't practicle for me. Have been researching gasification woodburning stoves. They seem my best option but still learning. I have an old oil burning furnace with radiant baseboard and radiators as well as forced hot air. But my furnace is broken and needs replacing. Want to get away from oil. Anyone had experience converting and know how difficult it is? Wondering if anyone knows or has experience with Econoburn woodburning boilers? Also, is the stainles steel issue worth the price with AHS's? I live in VA so our Winters vary alot in temp. Can go for weeks in the 40's only. Does that make a difference with the boilers efficency and which one i should choose?
 
Ok, I'm new to this site, so please forgive any error in jumping in here. I thought about owb's, but isn't practicle for me. Have been researching gasification woodburning stoves. They seem my best option but still learning. I have an old oil burning furnace with radiant baseboard and radiators as well as forced hot air. But my furnace is broken and needs replacing. Want to get away from oil. Anyone had experience converting and know how difficult it is? Wondering if anyone knows or has experience with Econoburn woodburning boilers? Also, is the stainles steel issue worth the price with AHS's? I live in VA so our Winters vary alot in temp. Can go for weeks in the 40's only. Does that make a difference with the boilers efficency and which one i should choose?
 
Oil furnaces can be augmented with an indoor gassification boiler. Not that hard to do. They can be retrofitted, but you lose the advantage in an OWB of having a boiler inside the house and having to drag wood inside all the time. As others have mentioned here, you also need to burn seasoned wood in a gassifier, and smaller sized wood. In most gassification systems you also have a much larger water heating system, as the wood/gas burn is typically a shorter time at a much higher temp, which makes them more efficient than a typical OWB, but for a much shorter time period. Some people have noted that a gassifier is harder to run at mild ambient temps, like above 40 degrees. With an OWB, all you do is burn a low fire with a few logs in there and let it smolder all day. That is the mode I am running ours at now, and it keeps the hot water good and hot, and hardly smokes or uses very much wood.

Note that one big difference between OWBs and indoor boilers has been that the EPA completely controls the emissions on indoor boilers. This is changing now and they are now certifiing OWBs, after some states have begun regulating or banning them (particularly OH, WA, NY, WI, and all of New England). There are newer OWBs that are combination gassifiers with high burning efficiency and very low emissions, but retain the advantage of burning any type and size of wood, like the new E class boilers from Central Boiler, and they can be placed outside the house. I would look into one of those. Someone on another thread on AS posted a good list of the EPA approved boilers out there now.

With either type of boiler retrofitting, you can plumb either system with PEX lines from the boilers to run to water to air heat exchanger inside your existing hot air furnace, or to water to water heat exchangers to a hydronic heating loop in the house (that is what we have here). You can also add a water to water heat exchanger to your existing hot water heater. If you were running with steam radiators, that is a different story. Personally I would never buy a wood fired boiler of any type that has a pressurized system with steam or hot water. They are dangerous, and they are not needed. Open system are a lot safer, and pretty fail safe in regard to not blowing up.

Anyway, do a lot of looking around and get a good idea of what you want. You will probably have to hire someone to design a retrofit system, or do it yourself. I did the entire design of our system here, with a pre-existing electric hydronic floor heating boiler and a pre-existing solar hot water system that feeds a standard electric hot water system. All applications are typically different, and take some time to design and install. Not all systems work well, and not all boilers (gassifiers or OWBs) are made the same. There are and have been a lot of fly-by-night boiler companies out there.

I have researched stainless steel, and I would not recommend it. Several reasons, one being that they are a lot more expensive, they have a lower heat exchange rate, they are a pain to weld and fix, and they tend to be more brittle than carbon steel. With carbon steel all you need to do is run an anti-corrosive in the water lines and you are good to go for 3 years. I have zero rust in the CB here after 3 heating seasons, inside or out of the firebox and water tank. CB makes their tanks with good thick steel. More steel is better.

Hope this helps... and get a good chainsaw too, 'cause you will need a lot of firewood, no matter how efficient a system you get. I calculate our OWB to be between 30 and 40% efficient. That is comparig the amount of wood energy burned to the amount of electricity we used here to heat the same house the years prior to installing the OWB. We burn well seasoned wood most of the time, and we burn the smallest amount of wood that we can to make it more efficient. If you always completely fill an OWB with wood, you make a lot of charcoal in the off-duty cycle at the top of the wood stank in the firebox, and then a lot of wood gasses escape up the flue.
 
I agree with most of what windthrown said, although I have a stronger affinity for gasifiers simply because I like efficiency and would rather plan ahead and season 4 cords of wood than have to deal with maybe twice as much.

Where I'd suggest more clarification is in the classification of the boilers. And OWB can be a gasifying boiler just as an indoor boiler can be a water jacket boiler. It just so happens that the vast majority of OWB's are water jacket type boilers... this is where the inefficiency is introduced. For complete combustion of cellulosic materials like wood fiber to occur requires a high temperatures, which parts of the inside of a water jacketed boiler (near the walls) will not see.

This is why indoor water jacket boilers fell out of favor with most homeowners. The incomplete combustion leads to products of combustion prone to coating chimney walls with creosote and other volatiles... not so much of a problem if the boiler is outside and away from the house.

I also disagree that a pressurized wood boiler is dangerous and they can be extremely convenient. PRV's are a pretty mature, reliable and well tested technology.

As far as Econoburn's go, from what I understand they're very well built but also more expensive than comparable forced downdraft boilers, like Tarm's, Eko's, Wood Gun's, etc.
 
Indoor water jacket boilers are not common becasue of EPA requirements more than anything else. Once a boiler is installed inside the house, it falls under EPA jourisdiction. That is why you do not see them any more. And hence why I make that distinction between most indoor and outdoor types of boilers. This is changing now with new state requirements; and in the end, typical water jacket boilers will probably be a thing of the past.

Having once been a plumber myself, and seen the damage that a typical hot water heater can do under pressure, I would never buy or install or even recommend a pressurised boiler system. I do not see that the advantage is that great in them, and open systems are commonly available and work fine. It is true that pump cavitation is avoided with pressure, and pumps last longer in pressurized systems. But pumps are not that expensive, and if you design them right, you can get enough pressure even in an open system to avoid pump cavitation damage.

BTW: if you want a lot of opinions on this subjest, there is a lot of it over on the Mother Earth NEws Forum. Also a lot of the typical indoor stove vs OWB and wood gassifier vs OWB flame wars, and the like. Brand loyalty seems to run high, as well as design and type of wood appliance.
 
would any of these models be efficient enough to use solar power for the electricity needs or would they be required to be connected to the grid. i'm not usually home for seven days in a row so i would require one that could be left alone for 3-4 days, any suggestions?
 
The only real power that OWBs use is for the solenoids to open the dampers, and the Taco pumps to pump the water to the house. The Taco pump runs all the time, and the solenoid is intermittant. If you have a draft fan type of OWB, you would also need to drive the fan. Some, like the CB models, also have some lights in them, and low voltage circuitry to sence the aquastat and control the damper. Ours has a Taco 007 size pump. I do not know the amperage for that off hand, but that is where the majority of power is used. Its a 110 circuit though. Nothing big. If you have a descent PV and battery, it might do the job. I would imagine that in winter with long storm overcast, you would not get enough power from a solar PV panel to drive it though and the battery would go dead, closing the damper, and then the boiler fire would go dead.

The other critical factor here is the wood burning though. There is no boiler on the market (OWB or WG) that will last more than one day without reloading the firewood. Most will go at most for 24 hours in winter months, and that is really stretching it in storms and deep freezes. More likely you would have to fill it 2 times a day, or once every 18 hours or so. There are alternatives though, like the CB models that have dual fuel wood and gas (oil, LP or NG) fired OWBs. I have a wood-only model though, so I cannot say how well they work. Also if you are going to be gone that long, I do not see any real option of any type of wood fired boiler. They like to be fed a steady diet of firewood.
 
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Wow. We can easilly get 6 weeks of solid cloud cover here, with successive storm systems plowing in from the Pacific. Different world...
 
Thanks Windthrown and Marc for the info ..... Ultimately my boiler needs to be inside, whichever kind I get. I will continue my research. I don't believe my radiators are steam. My biggest problem may be finding someone qualified around here (VA) to install one. No one so far I've called has even heard of a woodburning boiler. I've been told from the company making the boilers I just need a qualified plumber. Just wondering in gereral how difficult or different they are to install than a typical oil burning furnace. One other question too, what's a PVR?
 
Go over to ********** . Go into "the Boiler Room"...everyone there is into gasification. Lots of different gasifier owners.
 
Thanks Windthrown and Marc for the info ..... Ultimately my boiler needs to be inside, whichever kind I get. I will continue my research. I don't believe my radiators are steam. My biggest problem may be finding someone qualified around here (VA) to install one. No one so far I've called has even heard of a woodburning boiler. I've been told from the company making the boilers I just need a qualified plumber. Just wondering in gereral how difficult or different they are to install than a typical oil burning furnace. One other question too, what's a PVR?

PRV = pressure relief valve.

And +1 to what mtfallsmikey said... ********** was started by the guy who originally imported Tarm boilers and everyone in the boiler room is very knowledgable, particularly about gasifiers. I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with windthrown regarding the safety of pressurized boilers, but despite whose advice you choose to follow, know that there are thousands of units in service around the world and to the best of my knowledge, catastrophic over pressure failures (especially those not attributed to operator error) are very rare.
 
Back in the day (around '73, arab oil embargo) we installed a lot of pressurized wood boilers piped in series with existing oil boilers, and what a disaster it was! The new ones are better designed, and I would not be afraid of them. I will say that the folks on ********** frown on OWB's. You can get outdoor gassifiers now. I chose the OWB because i do not have a basement, and there are insurance issues as well. If you were closer to me I'd be glad to help you with your install. You might try heatinghelp.com. They have a "find a contractor" section.
 
I have just purchased a wood gasification boiler that I will put in a shed about 150 feet from the house - piping the heat to a 100,000 BTU copper tube heat exchanger in a thermal storage tank. My storage would be a pressurized 500 gals. propane tank with fixtures welded on for running the system in parallel or series. I am thinking that since hot temperature rises to have the hot water from the boiler plumbed in to the bottom of the tank and then the hot from the top of the tank to the DHW and radiant and baseboard systems we have in place in the house. I was also wondering if I should add more storage capacity than the 500 gals.
 
I have a Tarm Excel 2200 gasification boiler with 820 gal of heat storage (water, non-pressurized). If I had more space, I would have increased it to 1200 gal. I can do a 5 hour burn full blast. If I had a bigger tank, this could be increased to 8 hours. The major reason for a larger tank would be on mild days. I could easily stretch my burns to one every-other day.

Be careful of any plumber that claims that it is "easy" to install these boilers. They are tricky. Either get a plumber who has a lot of experience, or make sure the plumber talks to the manufacturer's tech support before installing the boiler, or you stand a good chance of a disaster.
 
fireplace

where can i find more info on russian fireplace,I have lots of bricks!

did you ever build that russian fireplace? I found a few sites with instructions on one. Looks great but I currently don't have money to spend building an addition to house one. I'll just plan on storage for the tarm,
 
I have a Tarm Excel 2200 gasification boiler with 820 gal of heat storage (water, non-pressurized). If I had more space, I would have increased it to 1200 gal. I can do a 5 hour burn full blast. If I had a bigger tank, this could be increased to 8 hours. The major reason for a larger tank would be on mild days. I could easily stretch my burns to one every-other day.

Be careful of any plumber that claims that it is "easy" to install these boilers. They are tricky. Either get a plumber who has a lot of experience, or make sure the plumber talks to the manufacturer's tech support before installing the boiler, or you stand a good chance of a disaster.

Installed mine myself it wasn't tricky other than the lot of time it took to put all the joints together and tape used on it. The other hard part is setting that big thing in place so the chimney lines up. Plumbing is the fun part. The part of plumbing I have left to do is heat storage if I get one built. That will take a little work.
 
Installed mine myself it wasn't tricky other than the lot of time it took to put all the joints together and tape used on it. The other hard part is setting that big thing in place so the chimney lines up. Plumbing is the fun part. The part of plumbing I have left to do is heat storage if I get one built. That will take a little work.



I installed my Eko 40 myself not that hard. We purchased our Eko 40 for $4,995 delivered we got a great deal it was end of the season. We heat roughly 5,000 sq ft between house and shop with 6 chords of mixed hard and soft wood with out storage. As mentioned before they are not real proud of wet wood. The Eko will burn it but not near as efficiently.

I don`t understand why pressurized system is dangerous they run less pressure then your water heater in the basement. Pressurized system has no issues with component corrosion, the install can be at any height relative to boiler and appliances without having restrictive check valves in place..

Before buying any boiler make sure and do a heat calculation on the structures you are planning on heating. I here of to many people buying a boiler to small for there needs, or to big and really waste the wood.
 
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