Wood Price Survey Time Again

[Cambium]

:agree2:

You guys are clueless on the defintion of "income"...

Thats like saying I have a job. Job pays me $1000 a week but between food, gas, electric, insurance, cars, clothes, toothpaste, credit card bills, garbage bags, blankets, cell phone, cable, home decor, bath tub mat, ect. ect I have nothing left and so I dont make $1000 a week.

YOU'RE STILL MAKING $1000 A WEEK! (in this example)

$200 A CORD = $30-40 AN HOUR INCOME. PERIOD.

 

[Ohiowoodguy]

You guys are clueless on the defintion of "income"...

Thats like saying I have a job. Job pays me $1000 a week but between food, gas, electric, insurance, cars, clothes, toothpaste, credit card bills, garbage bags, blankets, cell phone, cable, home decor, bath tub mat, ect. ect I have nothing left and so I dont make $1000 a week.

YOU'RE STILL MAKING $1000 A WEEK! (in this example)

$200 A CORD = $30-40 AN HOUR INCOME. PERIOD.

By your logic, why not say that you're making $400 and hour, if it only takes 1/2 hour to deliver it?:monkey:

 

[Henry G.]

Gross and net. Gross I make 100k a year. After the feds and Obonga rape me with taxes more like 50k.
Heres a good example of why "net" is the only thing you carry about:
A few years ago Kalifornia de-regulated the electricity business. The company I work for that used to make a megawatt of power that cost around $30-50. But we were forced to sell our generation that had been lovingly cared for by us for years, to a bunch of other companies who became thieves. They ran the equipment into the ground, meanwhile they manipulated the market that made the price of a megawatt go to $1000 at one point. We were selling megawatts for $100 and paying $1000 to buy it. The more people bought, the more we lost!!
You can charge $1000 for a cord of wood. If its cost $950 to make and deliver it, and 5 hours to make it, YOU ARE ONLY MAKING $10 AN HOUR PERIOD. Sell quality wood and do not lower your prices. You are screwing yourself in the end.
If you brag you get $1000 a cord you are fooling yourself, and thats just 'gross'.

 

[USMC0802]

You guys are clueless on the defintion of "income"...

Thats like saying I have a job. Job pays me $1000 a week but between food, gas, electric, insurance, cars, clothes, toothpaste, credit card bills, garbage bags, blankets, cell phone, cable, home decor, bath tub mat, ect. ect I have nothing left and so I dont make $1000 a week.

YOU'RE STILL MAKING $1000 A WEEK! (in this example)

$200 A CORD = $30-40 AN HOUR INCOME. PERIOD.

But the difference between being self-employed in your firewood business and a job where you're an employee is that all those expenses you incur in your business should be factored into the product you sell to cover them. They're also tax write-offs.

Why do self-employed people get nearly 50 cents per mile they drive in tax write-offs? Because that vehicle is part of their business and it is an EXPENSE. Someone has to pay for it.

Why do you think there are miscellaneous charges from auto mechanics? To pay for the shop towels, toilet paper, mops, etc for the shop. They are expenses that need to be paid for that can't be billed to the customer on the labor bill.

If you ever get to the point where demand for your firewood exceeds your production ability, you have two options - increase production by either getting equipment to make the firewood or hire employees and pay them. Now, when you sell that same firewood and you have two employees, you're still getting that $200/cord, but now you have to deduct the hourly wages of your employees, so your own hourly rate may drop a bit, but the idea is to sell more chords and make up for it through volume.

Hopefully that makes more sense. Anything that costs money to run your business is a decrease in your hourly rate.

Keep track of all of it for a year, every single expense you incur and have to pay out money for something that goes into your business and deduct that from the money you bring in and divide by the hours you worked.

What may make this a little less cut and dry is if that pickup truck you use to deliver wood is also used for personal use, or if your gear isn't work specific. It's hard to look at those as simply business expenses when you use them for non-business activity as well.

 

[banshee67]

Besides all the other stuff, you are forgetting one very important thing. If you are going to sell firewood and do it right, you need to start cutting three years before you even sell your first cord. That means of you plan on selling 10 cords of wood today and each year after, you best have cut and stacked 30 cords over the past three years so your wood is seasoned.

this make absolutely zero sense in any way im very confused as to what you are saying here...
why cant you just cut next years firewood supply, the year before you sell it..?

 

[blackdogon57]

No serious commercial firewood operator can afford to hang on to inventory for three years or even two years before selling it. I don't have the space or the money to hold firewood for more than one year.

Sure it would be nice to be able to sell wood that was seasoned for 2 years but in the real world I doubt it happens too often.

 

[teatersroad]

http://bend.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=233&subAreaID=&query=firewood&catAbb=sss

I couldn't move split, well seasoned Juniper @ $160 delivered and stacked even. I'll wait a bit. Commercial opps. do well around here, but they truck to Portland, 160 miles O/W and sell for twice as much.

 

[Dalmatian90]

, but secondly, they're probably not getting all the tax breaks they should be by deducting those expenses.

Because backyard firewood cutters are so well known for reporting their sales on their income tax returns.

There's a big difference in approaching finances between someone just running a side gig, and someone trying to make it a viable business.

 

[T_F_E]

If I'm lucky I get 140 for an honest to god cord of buckskin tamarack.

 

[USMC0802]

Because backyard firewood cutters are so well known for reporting their sales on their income tax returns.

There's a big difference in approaching finances between someone just running a side gig, and someone trying to make it a viable business.

When selling your firewood is your primary source of income, it is a viable business and not paying taxes is tax evasion, which makes me less sympathetic to a lot of the idiots that sell garbage they call "seasoned" firewood.

 

[svon89]

Right now prices in my area seem to be right around $180-$200/cord.

As far as "Income" you really need to identify "Gross" or "Net".

According to the above if you sell 1 cord then you are making $170 profit in 5.5 hours with a $200 per cord sales price.

So lets figure it out for a year working 40hrs/wk 52 wks a year.
$170/5.5 hrs
40hrs would yield $1236.36 (40/5.5 x 170)
52 weeks would yield $64290.72 (52 x $1236.36)
That would mean you would sell just about 379 cords at $170 profit.

Lets just say 379 cords sold for a profit of $64,430.

Now we have $200 / cord sale price with $30/ cord expenses
According to this Gross profit would be $75,800 with a net profit of $64,430 with $11,370 expenses.

Again this is all based on the above numbers of $200/cord sales, $30/cord expenses, with $170/cord profit.

So $200/cord=$30-$40 per hour
lets translate $200/cord = $62,400 - $83,200 per year PERIOD

That kind of $ the tax man cometh.....

 

[spike60]

When selling your firewood is your primary source of income, it is a viable business and not paying taxes is tax evasion, which makes me less sympathetic to a lot of the idiots that sell garbage they call "seasoned" firewood.

Your point is well taken, but seasoned or not, I think an awful lot of firewood changes hands for cash. And, I think that the majority of those guys are doing wood on the side for a little extra spending money. Dalmations point was that for those guys, the expences for maintaining a business are entirely different.

There was a thread a couple of years ago that got pretty involved about guys doing side work. Tree jobs, firewood, small engine repair, mowing lawns; the list is endless. Whatever the category, legit guys will have some resentment to the on-the-side guys, but it's a fact of life that isn't going to change.

What happened to you happens all to frequently. It's pretty frustrating to get all burned up because your wood doesn't want to. Seasoned, is a term that doesn't quite have a standard definition, and some sellers stretch it to fit whatever wood they have access to. A tree may have been down for over a year, but if it isn't cut and split until the day it's delivered, it's hardly seasoned. Seasoned in my book should mean "ready to burn" upon delivery.

 

[USMC0802]

Right now prices in my area seem to be right around $180-$200/cord.

As far as "Income" you really need to identify "Gross" or "Net".

According to the above if you sell 1 cord then you are making $170 profit in 5.5 hours with a $200 per cord sales price.

So lets figure it out for a year working 40hrs/wk 52 wks a year.
$170/5.5 hrs
40hrs would yield $1236.36 (40/5.5 x 170)
52 weeks would yield $64290.72 (52 x $1236.36)
That would mean you would sell just about 379 cords at $170 profit.

Lets just say 379 cords sold for a profit of $64,430.

Now we have $200 / cord sale price with $30/ cord expenses
According to this Gross profit would be $75,800 with a net profit of $64,430 with $11,370 expenses.

Again this is all based on the above numbers of $200/cord sales, $30/cord expenses, with $170/cord profit.

So $200/cord=$30-$40 per hour
lets translate $200/cord = $62,400 - $83,200 per year PERIOD

That kind of $ the tax man cometh.....

Just $10,000 in expenses, if you work 40 hrs/wk for all 52 weeks, no vacation time, drops that hourly rate by almost $5/hour. That's with only $30/cord expenses he listed. When you add in the cost of the gear, fluids, parts, maintenance, repairs, etc...it adds up.

If I were to start a firewood business and I bought a $5,000 truck, $2,000 trailer, say $1,200 for used saws, $1,500 for a lower end splitter, right there is $9,700 before I even put a drop of gas or oil in any of the equipment or maintain any of it.

Either way, this is turning into a dead horse, but no matter how you look at it, I don't think it's possible to get away with selling/delivering a cord of wood with only $30/cord of expenses incurred.

The bottom line is if the firewood business is a side gig, and you already have the stuff to produce firewood, you can say the expenses aren't coming out of your profits and that it's just a personal expense to put gas in your truck and tires and what not, but either way, producing and delivering the wood is going to increase that expense and one way or another, you're going to have to pay for it. It's easier to call it a personal expense when it's not your primary business/income, but the bill still gets paid.

Your point is well taken, but seasoned or not, I think an awful lot of firewood changes hands for cash. And, I think that the majority of those guys are doing wood on the side for a little extra spending money. Dalmations point was that for those guys, the expences for maintaining a business are entirely different.

There was a thread a couple of years ago that got pretty involved about guys doing side work. Tree jobs, firewood, small engine repair, mowing lawns; the list is endless. Whatever the category, legit guys will have some resentment to the on-the-side guys, but it's a fact of life that isn't going to change.

What happened to you happens all to frequently. It's pretty frustrating to get all burned up because your wood doesn't want to. Seasoned, is a term that doesn't quite have a standard definition, and some sellers stretch it to fit whatever wood they have access to. A tree may have been down for over a year, but if it isn't cut and split until the day it's delivered, it's hardly seasoned. Seasoned in my book should mean "ready to burn" upon delivery.

Agreed...the guy I bought the first cord of wood from had a lawn care/landscaping business and did firewood and snow removal on the side in the fall and winter months. Not sure how the plow could fit into a lawn care business, but having a trailer, a chainsaw, and some other tools to produce firewood could fit into the same tools used for lawn care. And yes, I paid cash.

My sister's boyfriend mowed lawns, ran a weed whacker, and removed leaves for a some folks during the summers between semesters of college using his dad's JD zero turn style mower. He paid his dad a bit to use the gear, but he made some money doing basic yard maintenance as a college kid.

As far as seasoned wood...I think most people who burn wood would agree that the term means ready to burn and produce quality heat. It's like the seller of a car saying it's in good condition, well...compared to what?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

There's a big difference in approaching finances between someone just running a side gig, and someone trying to make it a viable business.

. Dalmations point was that for those guys, the expences for maintaining a business are entirely different.

No, they aren't. The only difference is, the side-job guy THINKS they are different. He's fooling himself. The laws of economics don't change whether you are doing it on the side under the table, or doing it legit and paying taxes. Expenses are real, either way.

Some people know that, and some are clueless.

 

[USMC0802]

No, they aren't. The only difference is, the side-job guy THINKS they are different. He's fooling himself. The laws of economics don't change whether you are doing it on the side under the table, or doing it legit and paying taxes. Expenses are real, either way.

Some people know that, and some are clueless.

That was my point. The money for all the stuff to make your tools run to turn a tree into seasoned firewood and getting it to the customer costs money. It doesn't cost less money because it's not a full-time occupation nor is that cost just a figment of the imagination. Dollars leaving your bank account are the same whether it's your business or a hobby for some beer money.

Simple question - when my sister's boyfriend got say $50 to mow a lawn and it took him an hour, but he had to give his dad $10 for using the tractor...did he make $50/hour or did he make $40/hour?

Have we achieved this yet:
:deadhorse:

 

[banshee67]

Simple question - when my sister's boyfriend got say $50 to mow a lawn and it took him an hour, but he had to give his dad $10 for using the tractor...did he make $50/hour or did he make $40/hour?


:deadhorse:

before or after expenses? it all depends on how you ask the question!!!

everyone understands what you are saying.. i just dont think you understand what everyone else is saying

your hypothetical question could be seen both ways.. yes he made $50 an hour... before expenses, just like the guy in the cubicle just made $20 this last hour... but he might have bought breakfast at dunkin donuts and used 2 gallons of gas to get there.. so that first hour he onlyl made $10 an hour, right? NO, he made $20 an hour.. but he spent $10 !!
you need to know the question before tryin to give the answer

if you work in an office making $20 an hour... should you deduct from your hourly pay every time you buy a drink from the soda machine? how about a bag of pretzels? what about the gas it took you to drive to work that day? what about factoring wear and tear on your tires, brakes, mental health, etc? how about the depreciation of the value of the car the person is using to get to work 5-6 days a wweek, i guess a blue book value of your car should be taken at the beginning of every year, then again at the end, and the depreciation of your car needs to be deducted from your gross pay that year, right? what about that new shirt you bought to match your new dockers.. that needs to be taken out of your pay too! i mean cmon, you could go on forever here..... is all this being factored into that persons hourly salary? NO!! they make $20 an hour

if you wana make comparisons , compare apples to apples, weather you sell firewood, or work for a fortune 500 company in manhattan , everyone has expenses weather transportation , food, or whatever.. this argument could go either way and depending on which side you take, we could go on forever , it all depends on how you ask the question.

 

[USMC0802]

before or after expenses? it all depends on how you ask the question!!!

everyone understands what you are saying.. i just dont think you understand what everyone else is saying

your hypothetical question could be seen both ways.. yes he made $50 an hour... before expenses, just like the guy in the cubicle just made $20 this last hour... but he might have bought breakfast at dunkin donuts and used 2 gallons of gas to get there.. so that first hour he onlyl made $10 an hour, right? NO, he made $20 an hour.. but he spent $10 !!
you need to know the question before tryin to give the answer

if you work in an office making $20 an hour... should you deduct from your hourly pay every time you buy a drink from the soda machine? how about a bag of pretzels? what about the gas it took you to drive to work that day? what about factoring wear and tear on your tires, brakes, mental health, etc? how about the depreciation of the value of the car the person is using to get to work 5-6 days a wweek, i guess a blue book value of your car should be taken at the beginning of every year, then again at the end, and the depreciation of your car needs to be deducted from your gross pay that year, right? what about that new shirt you bought to match your new dockers.. that needs to be taken out of your pay too! i mean cmon, you could go on forever here..... is all this being factored into that persons hourly salary? NO!! they make $20 an hour

if you wana make comparisons , compare apples to apples, weather you sell firewood, or work for a fortune 500 company in manhattan , everyone has expenses weather transportation , food, or whatever.. this argument could go either way and depending on which side you take, we could go on forever , it all depends on how you ask the question.

I understand, but that's part of what the benefits package at work are for...

I was offered a job that I would love to have and great pay and benefits, but it was 75 miles one way to work. The cost of getting to and from work, not to mention my time and what not made it not financially worth it. You get to make that judgment call by accepting or declining the company's job offer. When you sell wood, you have to adjust your price to pay for those things, otherwise the money you think you're making is going to supplies/expenses. You might bring in $300/cord, but if your costs are $250/cord when all said an done, what have you really made when it comes to buying power to put food on the table and pay your household bills?

It all comes down to gross and net. We would have more money in the bank if my wife only drove 10-20 miles round trip to work rather than 50 miles/day to work. Her pay is the same, but what did it cost to actually make her salary?

When you're the business owner and control the price you set on your product, you have the ability to set your prices to cover those expenses as long as you have buyers willing to pay the price you demand. I think there are a lot of people who realize there aren't many people willing to pay the necessary price to bring home a net wage of $40/hour on firewood.

 

[banshee67]

I You might bring in $300/cord, but if your costs are $250/cord when all said an done, what have you really made

It all comes down to gross and net.

did you really need to make that first comparison again? lol, you keep changing numbers and words and making the same argument! I/WE GET IT !!:deadhorse:

yes,. gross and net, like many people have said, it all depends on how you ask the question, or which question you ask, anyone making $40 an hour in a cubicle, isnt actually netting $40 an hour.. and anyone selling $200 worth of wood in 5 hours work, isnt netting $40 an hour either, yea the guy selling firewood making $40 an hour gross is obvbisouly netting less than the guy working in a cubicl;e making $40 an hour gross, but neither are making $40 an hour net.
i/we get it!

one more for good measure: :deadhorse:

 

[Upidstay]

I just paid $150 a cord for seasoned, split hardwood, delivered. Mostly oak, some ash too. Last year I paid $125 for almost-green (3 months old) split, delivered. Everywhere else I saw $200-250 a cord, some times with delivery extra.

 

[spike60]

No, they aren't. The only difference is, the side-job guy THINKS they are different. He's fooling himself. The laws of economics don't change whether you are doing it on the side under the table, or doing it legit and paying taxes. Expenses are real, either way.

I understand what you are saying Mark, and it's correct from your perspective. We are really all correct here from our given perspectives. But let me have some fun and beat this dead horse a little myself.

Expences are indeed real, and for the most part are constant. For instance, the cost of an F250 to deliver wood is the same for both the full time guy and the part time guy. But this is the key difference that some of us are trying to point out: The full time guy has to pay for his truck, and everything else, entirely from his wood business. The part time guy, say a landscaper, pays for that truck from his landscaping business. A guy doing wood "on the side", has some other primary source of income that covers most of the expences associated with selling some firewood. Yeah, these guys often work cheap, but it's largely due to the fact that they don't have to be concerned with margins or being efficient. It's just "extra money" to them, and it can add up nicely.

A more common example is that I have tons of customers that do a few lawns on-the-side. Retired guys, high school kids, whatever. Buy a small cheap trailer, load up the lawn tractor that they already own and off they go. A guy can do just two $40 lawns a day and have $400 cash in his pocket every week. Not bad.