Wood stove insert draft problems - what a pain!

[fatboycowen]

A month ago, i had a wood stove insert installed into our existing fire place. It's a Vermont Castings Montpelier. Its nice, and the wife loves how it looks. But, i'm having a hell of a time starting fires without filling the house with smoke. We don't burn full time, and don't intend to (at least yet), mostly because we don't have enough wood. It's BAD. I need some advice. Here are the details:

Exterior chimney, in a 1 story portion of the house, adjacent to the 2 story portion. Basically a family room, with cathedral ceiling, off the kitchen of the main 2 story box. Chimney is big rectangular brick, with only the wood stove flue. There is a seperate chimney in the main box for the oil boiler.

Chimney guys couldn't get the insulated stainless liner in the existing liner, so they busted it out. Chimney is roughly 18 feet tall. It meets code, height wise, in relation to everything around it.

The house isn't super tight, but not bad. It's a 1987 with 2x6 walls and decent insulation, decent windows. Nothing special.

When the stove is cold, and i open the door, cold air comes in. I think it's reverse drafting. If i light a piece of newspaper in the back of the stove, ALL the smoke comes in.

So far, here is what i've tried - none worked:
- Researched the problem.
- Made sure nothing else was exhausting while starting fire.
- Sealing up the attic (still in progress, but it was pretty drafty).
- Opening a window (i've tried several different windows in different locations).
- Opening the door 30 minutes before starting the fire.
- Running the ceiling fan in the room

The only one that worked (only worked once) is running a propane torch pointed into the firebox for like 20 minutes straight. I think it heated up the chimney enough to reverse the draft.

Most of the time, by the time i get a good fire going, the house is smoky as hell. Once to the point that it makes me caugh and eyes burn a little. Have to open windows and doors, which defeats the purpose of burning....

Once it's going, it drafts decent. Not awesome, but decent. Some smoke does come in when adding logs, but not enough to hate it. It doesn't heat that great either. Room gets to like 72 from 65 so far. I suspect the draft is the issue. The wood i'm burning is pretty damn dry oak. Yet, the glass door dirties up pretty damn quick.

It's getting really frustrating and makes me not want to use it. What would you do?

 

[nathon918]

Chimney guys couldn't get the insulated stainless liner in the existing liner, so they busted it out

are you saying that there is no liner in the chimney? or they had to break the masonry to get the liner in? because without a liner I doubt the masonry chimney is going to draw enough for that insert.
or it sounds like maybe the damper is closed, or some sort of restriction in the chimney... did you ever burn the original fireplace? did it draft fine?

 

[fatboycowen]

Sorry. The insulated stainless 6" liner wouldnt fit down the 8x12 clay liner. So, they busted out the clay, and put in the stainless steel one, with insulation blanket.
We just bought the house. Previous owner said they tried a fire once, and smoke came in, so they never used it again. We hold no faith in the previous owner, based on some of the numb skulled things they did in the house, or left unfixed.

 

[blades]

Might need to extend the flue further than it is now height wise, could be getting down draft from adjacent portion of building. If you have that much coming out the stove something somewhere in your place is causing a heck of a negative pressure problem, ( common with basement installs I use the blower of the shop vac for about 5 min. before trying anything with the smoke dragon down there) flue should extend 3 ft above highest portion of building/ structure /trees in a 10 ft radius.

 

[user 122190]

Use a fire starter brick, so you can shut the door immediately. Once all the kindling is going well the stove ought to be hot enough to create the upwards draft.

 

[fatboycowen]

Use a fire starter brick, so you can shut the door immediately. Once all the kindling is going well the stove ought to be hot enough to create the upwards draft.

Tried that. Smoke literally comes out of the stove vents until the draft starts.

 

[bassjam]

Some day's I have a similar issue getting a fire started. I installed this little blower in the flue before it connects to the chimney, and run it for about 5 minutes when lighting a fire. After that the stove drafts fine by itself and I can turn it off.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AXFP1/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Marshy]

Do you have a cap on the chimney?

 

[WoodTick007]

Your asking people on the internet when you should be asking the company who installed the insulated stainless steel liner.
You seem surprised that cold air is falling down your chimney. You need to get the chimney hot before starts drawing properly.

 

[nathon918]

Sorry. The insulated stainless 6" liner wouldnt fit down the 8x12 clay liner. So, they busted out the clay, and put in the stainless steel one, with insulation blanket.
We just bought the house. Previous owner said they tried a fire once, and smoke came in, so they never used it again. We hold no faith in the previous owner, based on some of the numb skulled things they did in the house, or left unfixed.

my house is pretty similar to yours built in 85, two story salt box (original house) with a 16x20 addition/living room with 12ft cathedral ceilings, I have an AllNighter stove in there it runs single wall stove pipe up about 8ft then to double wall SS chimney (9ft) through the roof total length about 17ft... it draws pretty good, I have to open the door slowly though or it will smoke out the door.
I think mine draws much better because 75+% of the chimney is inside so its always warm...you have a exterior masonry chimney (always cold) maybe try cracking a window, and leave the insert door open for a while to try and get it to draw by it self, or use a torch like you did before, many people have to do something similar because of draft problems...

 

[Marshy]

I'd pack the thing full of news paper, cardboard and kindlin, add a splash of lighter fluid, light it and close the door. Dont open it untill you have coals left that are not smoking. That should add enough heat to help establish a draft. Otherwise I dont have much advise for you. I wouldnt tollerate my house smalling like smoke and my wood burner is inside. Is there a flue dampner in the stove? Be sure that is wide open when you are staring a fire.

 

[WoodTick007]

You could go and find some pine logs and cut them with the grain so rather than chips you get long paper thin strips of pine. Make a whole bunch of them... Like garbage bags full. Take a Walmart grocery bag full of them and put it inside your stove along with some small dry kindling. . Light them and close the door very quickly as they are gonna take off like a cheap 1960's Russian rocket booster. As.they take off open the vents on the stove to let it breathe....Once they are done burning open the door and add some additional dry kindling.
Or you could have a gas long installed your woodburner.....then you could call it a gaslogburner

 

[svk]

Hey guys, he said when he puts a fire in there and shuts the door right away it still blows smoke back through the vents anyhow. So anything that includes starting a kindling fire and slamming the door till its burning isn't going to help.

How far is the top of the chimney below the roof of the second story?

 

[Marshy]

Hey guys, he said when he puts a fire in there and shuts the door right away it still blows smoke back through the vents anyhow. So anything that includes starting a kindling fire and slamming the door till its burning isn't going to help.

How far is the top of the chimney below the roof of the second story?

Ahh, sorry forgot that part. I'd take a second look at the height of the chimney like you recommended and make sure it meets code for height above the highest roof line and that it has a cap. If it meets all of that then something is F'ed up. Got a picure of the chimney outside?

 

[WoodTick007]

Sounds to me that this chimney is NOT up to code.
I think the code for a chimney on a solid fuel heater is 2 feet higher than 10 feet over. Draft can also be affected by near by structures etc. I would like to see some pictures of this guys home and chimney.

 

[blades]

I asked about the flue height in relation to everything else around 12Pm today already - so got wait for answer on that or similar question I guess. Yep pic would be nice.

Well went back and read opening statement "flue meets code......" but does not state that it is higher than the adjacent roof line, which could fall outside the 10/3 rule, but this in fact could be what is causing the downdraft problem as the 10/3 is more of a guide line than an absolute. So I would suggest , but you may not be able to accomplish same, adding some single wall pipe until the flue is over the height of the main roof line as a test. You might have to have the installers help on this. If it does correct most of the problem then it should be made permanent with insulated flue sections to a minimum of 3 ft higher than the adjacent roof line. Down flows following roof lines can be quite vexing. Not always caused by the closest variance in the roof line - not at all unlike underground waterflows which, on occasion, do go up hill.

 

[nathon918]

Sounds to me that this chimney is NOT up to code.

what "code" might it not be up to? local current code? your local Michigan code? local code for 1987?, codes change all the time, a house built just last year and met all codes, likely wouldn't meet all codes today! but it met code when it was built and that's all that matters.

Chimney guys couldn't get the insulated stainless liner in the existing liner, so they busted it out. Chimney is roughly 18 feet tall. It meets code, height wise, in relation to everything around it

 

[nathon918]

I asked about the flue height in relation to everything else around 12Pm today already - so got wait for answer on that or similar question I guess. Yep pic would be nice.

Well went back and read opening statement "flue meets code......" but does not state that it is higher than the adjacent roof line, which could fall outside the 10/3 rule, but this in fact could be what is causing the downdraft problem as the 10/3 is more of a guide line than an absolute. So I would suggest , but you may not be able to accomplish same, adding some single wall pipe until the flue is over the height of the main roof line as a test. You might have to have the installers help on this. If it does correct most of the problem then it should be made permanent with insulated flue sections to a minimum of 3 ft higher than the adjacent roof line. Down flows following roof lines can be quite vexing. Not always caused by the closest variance in the roof line - not at all unlike underground waterflows which, on occasion, do go up hill.

yeah because that wouldn't look like s*** or anything

 

[blades]

Nathon we are on about the same track

 

[WoodTick007]

what "code" might it not be up to? local current code? your local Michigan code? local code for 1987?, codes change all the time, a house built just last year and met all codes, likely wouldn't meet all codes today! but it met code when it was built and that's all that matters.

BOCA CODE for the year the stove and chimney were installed and or modified.