Would this tree be a candidate for bracing?

[Goose IBEW]

I have an oak with three trunks, each at least 18" in diameter. They have started to separate at the base. One trunk is headed for an out building, the other two wouldn't hit anything if they came down. The tree is in a good location in relationship to the rest of the property and has no other reason for removal other than concerned weakness due to the split at the base.

I was studying the tree, each trunk goes up on about a 15deg angle and the trunks are pretty symmetrical at about 120deg apart. It looks to me that a great deal of strength could be gained if the three trunks were braced together with cable about 30' up.

I took some pics, hopefully they will provide some good discussion. Would bracing be an alternative to removal here?

 

[Goose IBEW]

A couple more pics

 

[treemandan]

Personally I have about had it with cabling a bracing big trees. I just don't think its a good idea and think its more practical to remove something that has that kind of potential.

 

[tomtrees58]

remove it putting rods and 6 cables and pruning will be$ 2000 to $3000

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I have an oak with three trunks, each at least 18" in diameter. They have started to separate at the base. One trunk is headed for an out building, the other two wouldn't hit anything if they came down. The tree is in a good location in relationship to the rest of the property and has no other reason for removal other than concerned weakness due to the split at the base.

Umm.... that split is reason enough for me. It's not going to get any better. You risk buying a couple years with an expensive cable job, and then paying through the nose for a crane removal. The sooner you get it ou the sooner you can replace it with a suitable tree.

 

[miko0618]

in my opinion, theres not enough tree below the split to do anything with it. that hole is going to decay in no time. if it had a solid trunk for 20', then split a little at the top, ok. heck, that split might be into the root crown. it looks like a serious hazard.

 

[Goose IBEW]

Thanks for checking it out for me. This one is on my property so I'm gonna be busy on my own turf.

 

[chief116]

If its on your own property, and its not near anything you care about, why not practice bracing and cabling on it? If it works well, you can say so to future clients. If it fails miserably, well, now you know. Every bit of experience you can bring to the next job matters, at least in my opinion.

 

[PassionForTrees]

Alot of quick lets take it down with out knowing more about the situation, man that just sucks that that's what you get mostly. :msp_sneaky: I take care of TREES TOO!! that's up to the home owner as long as the understanding of the risks that will always remain, Cabling correctly with proper pruning and Bracing properly would absolutely help the tree hang around much longer, Deep root feeding the root zone to establish root growth and help the tree with strees damage recovery. Not promote the tree to grow but to keep what you have as healthy as can be. Is there a TARGET like a house, garage or anything dangerous in the area if the tree came down in a huge storm? is it worth the cost and efforts to keep the tree? There are many many customers who will pay you to take care of the tree and do your best to keep them around much longer, worst that can happen is all your efforts and the customers money might bring you back to take it completely down some day. That sounds like a WIN WIN to me. BE MORE and DO MORE than the average. Understand the size of the cable hardware and brace rods you should use, with support in the trees 2/3ds to 3/4s up on the trunks in a triangular formation, and space out the eyebolts at least 14 - 18 " apart. I would say there is about $1500.00 worth of very little pruning, cabling and bracing with an additional 3 -$400 for deep root feeding. You will gain all that experience and knowledge and get to watch her year after year until the inevitable happens and you will know when for sure that time is! Good luck. And be Safe.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Alot of quick lets take it down with out knowing more about the situation, man that just sucks that that's what you get mostly. :msp_sneaky: I take care of TREES TOO!! that's up to the home owner as long as the understanding of the risks that will always remain, Cabling correctly with proper pruning and Bracing properly would absolutely help the tree hang around much longer, Deep root feeding the root zone to establish root growth and help the tree with strees damage recovery. Not promote the tree to grow but to keep what you have as healthy as can be. Is there a TARGET like a house, garage or anything dangerous in the area if the tree came down in a huge storm? is it worth the cost and efforts to keep the tree? There are many many customers who will pay you to take care of the tree and do your best to keep them around much longer, worst that can happen is all your efforts and the customers money might bring you back to take it completely down some day. That sounds like a WIN WIN to me. BE MORE and DO MORE than the average. Understand the size of the cable hardware and brace rods you should use, with support in the trees 2/3ds to 3/4s up on the trunks in a triangular formation, and space out the eyebolts at least 14 - 18 " apart. I would say there is about $1500.00 worth of very little pruning, cabling and bracing with an additional 3 -$400 for deep root feeding. You will gain all that experience and knowledge and get to watch her year after year until the inevitable happens and you will know when for sure that time is! Good luck. And be Safe.

Did you bother to look at the pics? He doesn' have AN oak, he has three who grew up together and are parting ways. Large cavities appearing, allowing water to increase decay, and it will only get worse. Root and stump rot are inevitable. I love trees too, but let's be honest, that overgrown clump has no future.

 

[PassionForTrees]

It doesnt have to be an OAK TREE to have the value of caring for something that has more value to them than you or anyone else. Adding 6 years to 10 years is not out of the question and having to come down in six months isnt either. I have seen worse stay up with no help and have seen trees worked on miticulously and come down in storms. No one will ever really know but the cuatomer may want the tree to have more of a chance than just " take it down its rotted" as the only answer. And for thos of you who dont feel the same way? thats ok. Im taking care of the mature trees and also taking them down but giving honest recommendations based on experience for my customers to make the desision for their wishes. We have alot of differences in our trade. No offence given or taken!

 

[Tree Pig]

It doesnt have to be an OAK TREE to have the value of caring for something that has more value to them than you or anyone else. Adding 6 years to 10 years is not out of the question and having to come down in six months isnt either. I have seen worse stay up with no help and have seen trees worked on miticulously and come down in storms. No one will ever really know but the cuatomer may want the tree to have more of a chance than just " take it down its rotted" as the only answer. And for thos of you who dont feel the same way? thats ok. Im taking care of the mature trees and also taking them down but giving honest recommendations based on experience for my customers to make the desision for their wishes. We have alot of differences in our trade. No offence given or taken!

Thats horse####. This is a hazardous tree, cabling is not a guarantee and if he is looking for an answer that guarantees that tree isnt going to fail when he or someone else happens to be in that out building then the answer is remove the tree. You say no offense given, but your holier-than-thou attitude with this crap that "Alot of quick lets take it down with out knowing more about the situation, man that just sucks that that's what you get mostly. I take care of TREES TOO" is offensive to some of the other people in here. As a matter of fact most of the people in here "take care of TREES TOO" and attempt to educate the customers on tree care. In this case that tree or those trees are now somewhat hazardous. In the future they are going to be very hazardous. I would bet there is not a tree care person here that has not seen a 3/8 cable snapped by a windstorm.

Sometimes removal is just the right answer, you cant save all the trees so drive down to Jersey and hug that one while you can... and by the way thanks for our lovely new gun laws.

heres a little education for you.



Codominant Stems

What does that refer to?

The term "codominant stems" is used to describe 2 or more main stems (or "leaders") that are about the same diameter and emerge from the same location on the main trunk.
As the tree grows older, the stems remain similar in size without any single one becoming dominant.

Why are such stems important to recognize?

Codominant stems tend to fail much more often than others, especially in storms.
Though such stems may look fine to the casual observer, they may actually be dangerous.
Early recognition of such stems allows remedial action when it does the most good.
Many of our most common street, highway, and park trees commonly form codominant stems.
Maples and oaks
Conifers that have lost the terminal during development

How can you tell if there is a serious problem?

Classifying codominant stems into 3 risk stages can aid in their management:

• Risk Stage 1: does the union between the two stems form a "V" but there are no other symptoms? A "V" union is much more likely to fail than a "U" Stems with a "V" union compress bark between them as they grow, leaving little physical connection
• Risk Stage 2: are there symptoms of decay in the union? Can you see rotted matter between the stems? Is there any fluid flowing from the union? Are there woody plants growing in the union? Do you see wide "ears" (swelling) on either side of the union?
• Risk Stage 3: is there any sign of failure? Can you see any cracks in the union itself? Is reaction wood being formed rapidly at the base of the stems?

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Looks like stage 3 to me.

 

[Tree Pig]

Looks like stage 3 to me.

Me to but we dont Care for TREES TOO... No matter the state of Ct is going to add chainsaws to the Ban list soon anyways.

 

[rarefish383]

Just to clarify some details.

When the above poster said he doesn't have "an Oak" , he didn't mean as species, Oak, Maple, Birch. He meant as a single tree with damage. What he has is a cluster of 3, once separate, tress that have grown together. Much different situation than a single trunk.

I don't care for trees, now, but I did for 40 years, fourth generation licensed and insured, studied at the University of MD, botany major.

From the looks of the picture those were once 3 separate trees that grew together. By doing so they have normal root systems on 2/3 of each trunk and virtually no root system on the inner third where they are touching. Or, I should say, where they "were" touching. Deep root feeding will have absolutely no affect on the inner part of the root system where the trees are coming apart, because there is no root system there.

Since there is no 360 degree root system, cabling the three trees together may act to create a giant sail that can twist the stumps worse than being a single trunk.

But, then again, I'm just an old retired guy looking at a picture, Joe.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Just to clarify some details.

When the above poster said he doesn't have "an Oak" , he didn't mean as species, Oak, Maple, Birch. He meant as a single tree with damage. What he has is a cluster of 3, once separate, tress that have grown together. Much different situation than a single trunk.

I don't care for trees, now, but I did for 40 years, fourth generation licensed and insured, studied at the University of MD, botany major.

From the looks of the picture those were once 3 separate trees that grew together. By doing so they have normal root systems on 2/3 of each trunk and virtually no root system on the inner third where they are touching. Or, I should say, where they "were" touching. Deep root feeding will have absolutely no affect on the inner part of the root system where the trees are coming apart, because there is no root system there.

Since there is no 360 degree root system, cabling the three trees together may act to create a giant sail that can twist the stumps worse than being a single trunk.


But, then again, I'm just an old retired guy looking at a picture, Joe.

Yes thank you that is what I meant. I might be more open to cabling if we were looking at a codominant stem situation, but as you put so well, we have serious below ground structure issues as well.

 

[Goose IBEW]

Thats horse####. This is a hazardous tree, cabling is not a guarantee and if he is looking for an answer that guarantees that tree isnt going to fail when he or someone else happens to be in that out building then the answer is remove the tree. You say no offense given, but your holier-than-thou attitude with this crap that "Alot of quick lets take it down with out knowing more about the situation, man that just sucks that that's what you get mostly. I take care of TREES TOO" is offensive to some of the other people in here. As a matter of fact most of the people in here "take care of TREES TOO" and attempt to educate the customers on tree care. In this case that tree or those trees are now somewhat hazardous. In the future they are going to be very hazardous. I would bet there is not a tree care person here that has not seen a 3/8 cable snapped by a windstorm.

Sometimes removal is just the right answer, you cant save all the trees so drive down to Jersey and hug that one while you can... and by the way thanks for our lovely new gun laws.

heres a little education for you.



Codominant Stems

What does that refer to?

The term "codominant stems" is used to describe 2 or more main stems (or "leaders") that are about the same diameter and emerge from the same location on the main trunk.
As the tree grows older, the stems remain similar in size without any single one becoming dominant.

Why are such stems important to recognize?

Codominant stems tend to fail much more often than others, especially in storms.
Though such stems may look fine to the casual observer, they may actually be dangerous.
Early recognition of such stems allows remedial action when it does the most good.
Many of our most common street, highway, and park trees commonly form codominant stems.
Maples and oaks
Conifers that have lost the terminal during development

How can you tell if there is a serious problem?

Classifying codominant stems into 3 risk stages can aid in their management:

• Risk Stage 1: does the union between the two stems form a "V" but there are no other symptoms? A "V" union is much more likely to fail than a "U" Stems with a "V" union compress bark between them as they grow, leaving little physical connection
• Risk Stage 2: are there symptoms of decay in the union? Can you see rotted matter between the stems? Is there any fluid flowing from the union? Are there woody plants growing in the union? Do you see wide "ears" (swelling) on either side of the union?
• Risk Stage 3: is there any sign of failure? Can you see any cracks in the union itself? Is reaction wood being formed rapidly at the base of the stems?

Thank you Tree Pig for and answer that has factual information in it and provides some education. Just to give you a better understanding, this tree is on an expansive 7 acre plot of which over 3 acres is cleared and used as yard space for kids to play among other things. I have one of the single biggest oaks I have seen around here, 12 feet, 3 inches circumference at four feet off the ground. This massive oak is 100 feet off the house centered in the back yard. There is another oak a bit smaller, at least 36" in diameter about a hundred feet to the right of the monster oak. The cracked tree with the codominant stems is another 100 plus feet to the right and outside the main back yard area. Yes, there is a 16x16 shed with a second story loft in line with one of the stems of the tree.

I have given thought to cableing the tree and came to the realization that I would need at least 5/8 cable and need bracing in two locations to have a chance of gaining the needed support. Even if the bracing does an impeccable job of adding the needed support, the crack at the base goes all the way down to the dirt line and possibly below grade. I feel that this would be an experiment as to how long it would take for the base to rot out as it is inevitable. Removal in the future will be more dangerous for waiting. I'd also be wondering about the safety of my shed every time a storm rolls through.

 

[rarefish383]

Just to reinforce your feeling that putting removal off will make it more dangerous in the future, I have seen 5/8 snapped like cotton thread, I have also seen lots of 1/2 inch lag bolts snatched out of the wood, once I saw a 1/2 inch through bolt with a 2 inch washer snatched all the way through a trunk, and several trees where the cable held, but swung the failed section around and pulled the other trunk down. Often newcomers to the trade will see a technique and think it's the neatest thing since sliced bread, and then when it fails, they say I installed it right, nothing else could be done. Some times the other thing to be done is have it removed, Joe.

 

[Pelorus]

From the looks of the picture those were once 3 separate trees that grew together. By doing so they have normal root systems on 2/3 of each trunk and virtually no root system on the inner third where they are touching. Or, I should say, where they "were" touching.
Since there is no 360 degree root system, cabling the three trees together may act to create a giant sail that can twist the stumps worse than being a single trunk.

I would have thought that cabling them together would artificially cause them to behave as a single trunk with a combined 360 degree root system. Then again, I really sucked at math and physics in school.
The deep root feeding notion is completely misguided and inappropriate without the results of a soil sample or other evidence indicating nutrient deficits, IMO.

 

[rarefish383]

No, cabling is high enough up that it still allows for a good bit of movement. If the wind were to blow directly at one lead it could pick that one lead up throwing a lot of slack into the 2 cables going to the other leads. Then they would have no support in the direction the wind was coming from. The wind would then be blowing on the other 2 leads in a manner that would let them fold over, like a hinge. Or it can pick one lead up and twist on it and put slack to one cable, while pulling on the other against it's weaker side. Either of those scenarios could bring all 3 trunks down in an uncontrolled mess. At least uncabled they are pretty much forced to fall in the direction of the lean, you know where they are going, Joe.