EPA and saws

[SawTroll]

What version of communism has ever begun as capatilism?

The Carl Markx variant??? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea!

 

[MuleyJ]

The Carl Markx variant??? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea!

I could be mistaken, but I believe that Karl Marx is pretty well universally recognized as the father of modern communism.

 

[SawTroll]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that Karl Marx is pretty well universally recognized as the father of modern communism.

He is, but what does that really mean - I am not even sure if I would call him a commie, regarding the way it was practised by Lenin and Stalin! I doubt that Marx planned to kill millions upon millions of Russians!

 

[MuleyJ]

He is, but what does that really mean - I am not even sure if I would call him a commie, regarding the way it was practised by Lenin and Stalin! I doubt that Marx planned to kill millions upon millions of Russians!

Therein lies the problem, communism/socialism in theory and in practice are two drastically different beasts. You could accuse Karl Marx of a lot of things, none of which would ever relate to capitalism.

 

[SawTroll]

Therein lies the problem, communism/socialism in theory and in practice are two drastically different beasts. You could accuse Karl Marx of a lot of things, none of which would ever relate to capitalism.

I don't see it as a problem that Marx messed it all up, just a fact, and no surprice that it went all wrong in practise!

The result is sort of OK today, but the "experiment" did cost 20-40 million Russian lives, but who cares about that today?

After he was finished killing all his better officers, Stalin just pumped untrained "recruits" into the face of the Germans, until they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. Little or no military skills were involved on the Russian side - just numbers and mass!

 

[joecool85]

I've watched as the cars got cleaner up to the point nothing but water and co2 came out the pipe but it was'nt enough, now co2 is a poisonious gas.
Welcome to the united solalist union.

Are you from the future? Because right now, lots more than just water and CO2 come out of an exhaust pipe.

 

[joecool85]

Wait a minute. Are you saying that a chainsaw burning around 27 ounces of fuel in 30 minutes emits more carbon than a full size pickup that might get 16 mpg on a 1600 mile trip? That's 100 gallons of fuel through the truck vs 1/5 of a gallon of fuel through the saw. I'm no mathematician, but that would make the pickup around 500 times more efficient than a saw. Are you sure you don't work for the EPA? That math sounds kinda "fuzzy" to me.

Nope, I wasn't talking about carbon. In that regard you are right, the truck is more efficient. I was talking about much more dangerous emissions like NOX and unburnt hydrocarbons.

 

[belgian]

Some people have a very short memory. You just have to look back one century ago to see how labour got exploited by capitalism. Although I have worked in the industry all my career, I have little respect for bankers and capitalists who rule the industrial world. I am glad there is a government to maintain some balance between the different classes, although itself is contaminated with profiteers and bribed individuals, by the capitalists btw. Rich people don't give a damn about society, always has and always will be.
Better have some government and laws to protect the interest of the common man.

 

[J.W Younger]

Are you from the future? Because right now, lots more than just water and CO2 come out of an exhaust pipe.

Define lots

 

[porch monkey]

Better have some government and laws to protect the interest of the common man.

Your right that we have to have a little bit of government. But weve crossed the line and now we have way to damn much here in my country. The people arent supposed to get on there knees for the government...we should get on our knees only for the Lord. The 'almighty' federal government should be our subjects..not the other way around

 

[joecool85]

Define lots

Carbon Monoxide (CO), Nitrogen Dioxide (NOX), Sulfur Dioxide (SO2), Particulate matter (soot) and to a lesser degree, small amounts of Benzene and Formaldehyde.

 

[MuleyJ]

Nope, I wasn't talking about carbon. In that regard you are right, the truck is more efficient. I was talking about much more dangerous emissions like NOX and unburnt hydrocarbons.

So no quantification at all? Just "yep the truck sure should be more efficient, besides I was taliking about something else"? Explain why it is that a pickup is 500x more efficient than a saw. I did not say that, you did. How is it possible for one internal combustion engine to burn/not burn 1/5 of a gallon of fuel and pollute the same as one that burns 100 gallons of fuel in the same example?

 

[MuleyJ]

Some people have a very short memory. You just have to look back one century ago to see how labour got exploited by capitalism. Although I have worked in the industry all my career, I have little respect for bankers and capitalists who rule the industrial world. I am glad there is a government to maintain some balance between the different classes, although itself is contaminated with profiteers and bribed individuals, by the capitalists btw. Rich people don't give a damn about society, always has and always will be.
Better have some government and laws to protect the interest of the common man.

There is no perfect system. Just because capitalism is not perfect does not mean it is communism or even anywhere close. Again I will ask what form of communism has ever begun as capitalism? No one has said there is no need for limited government, just that occasionally our government forgets or attempts to reinterpret what its constitutional limits are.

 

[joecool85]

So no quantification at all? Just "yep the truck sure should be more efficient, besides I was taliking about something else"? Explain why it is that a pickup is 500x more efficient than a saw. I did not say that, you did. How is it possible for one internal combustion engine to burn/not burn 1/5 of a gallon of fuel and pollute the same as one that burns 100 gallons of fuel in the same example?

Efficiency can be rated on any level of scales. I'm not talking about hp per cc or carbon output per gallon (which is going to be the same correlation as mpg), I'm talking about unburnt particles due to low engine efficiencies.

Carburation on a small engine doesn't allow hydrocarbons to be burnt before exiting the engine, same thing with NOX, both these things burn your lungs when you breath them in. This is why when you breath in car exhaust it doesn't burn your lungs, but a tiny engine on a chainsaw's exhaust does. The car is burning way more fuel per hour of operation, but it is "cleaner" in many regards. The only way we know to solve this issue at this point is: fuel injection and catalytic converters.

 

[MuleyJ]

It's true. A 190cc push mower puts out the same emissions mowing the lawn for 30 minutes as driving 200 miles or so in a pickup truck. Chainsaws put out a lot more than a new push mower does, from what I recall something in the 5-10x range. So image for every 30 minutes you run your saw, it's like driving a fullsize pickup 1,000-2,000 miles. That adds up in a hurry.

Efficiency can be rated on any level of scales. I'm not talking about hp per cc or carbon output per gallon (which is going to be the same correlation as mpg), I'm talking about unburnt particles due to low engine efficiencies.

Carburation on a small engine doesn't allow hydrocarbons to be burnt before exiting the engine, same thing with NOX, both these things burn your lungs when you breath them in. This is why when you breath in car exhaust it doesn't burn your lungs, but a tiny engine on a chainsaw's exhaust does. The car is burning way more fuel per hour of operation, but it is "cleaner" in many regards. The only way we know to solve this issue at this point is: fuel injection and catalytic converters.

What I am asking is for you to quantify your statement that the pickup engine produces roughly 1/500th of any of the emissions of the saw engine while consuming the same amount of fuel. Which one(s) and how much?

 

[joecool85]

What I am asking is for you to quantify your statement that the pickup engine produces roughly 1/500th of any of the emissions of the saw engine while consuming the same amount of fuel. Which one(s) and how much?

I don't know as I could get you exact numbers. What I do know is that a 2006 Ford F150 w/4.6 V8 produces the same amount of unburnt hydrocarbons and a little less NOX than a 2006 Honda Nighthawk 250 (granted the truck puts out WAY more CO due to burning more fuel). I did a lot of research on it while I was in college. I also remember reading that lawn mowers (in 2006) produced 1,000miles worth of pollution out of a "fullsize truck" for every time they mowed the lawn (which I figured was about a 1 hour procedure for the average American, although my lawn does take close to 3 hours with a push mower).

I don't remember more than that as it was 4 years ago I did the research. I do remember being surprised that the carbon output is directly proportional to how much fuel you burn (IE - 1 gallon through a weed wacker will make the same carbon as 1 gallon through a prius) but that the NOX and hydrocarbons were significantly lower (100-1000x) in comparison of small engines to modern automobiles.

 

[MuleyJ]

I don't know as I could get you exact numbers. What I do know is that a 2006 Ford F150 w/4.6 V8 produces the same amount of unburnt hydrocarbons and a little less NOX than a 2006 Honda Nighthawk 250 (granted the truck puts out WAY more CO due to burning more fuel). I did a lot of research on it while I was in college. I also remember reading that lawn mowers (in 2006) produced 1,000miles worth of pollution out of a "fullsize truck" for every time they mowed the lawn (which I figured was about a 1 hour procedure for the average American, although my lawn does take close to 3 hours with a push mower).

I don't remember more than that as it was 4 years ago I did the research. I do remember being surprised that the carbon output is directly proportional to how much fuel you burn (IE - 1 gallon through a weed wacker will make the same carbon as 1 gallon through a prius) but that the NOX and hydrocarbons were significantly lower (100-1000x) in comparison of small engines to modern automobiles.

I have seen those comparisons several times as well, but I thought that you might actually have some names and numbers to go with it. I have looked around too and cannot find any numbers so far that substantiates those claims. Surprise, the actual numbers are never included. Seems to me that it would prove beneficial to include them if it were true would it not? I would be interested in seeing the actual numbers should anyone know where they are. It still seems to me that literature such as this make those blanket emission claims but don't want you to see the actual numbers. There is a possibility that one or more particular forms of emission are greatly increased in OPE, but in terms of overall pollutant these claims are bogus. Note the source of the information.

http://kentucky.sierraclub.org/resources/factsheets/two-stroke_engines.pdf

 

[joecool85]

I have seen those comparisons several times as well, but I thought that you might actually have some names and numbers to go with it. I have looked around too and cannot find any numbers so far that substantiates those claims. Surprise, the actual numbers are never included. Seems to me that it would prove beneficial to include them if it were true would it not? I would be interested in seeing the actual numbers should anyone know where they are. It still seems to me that literature such as this make those blanket emission claims but don't want you to see the actual numbers. There is a possibility that one or more particular forms of emission are greatly increased in OPE, but in terms of overall pollutant these claims are bogus. Note the source of the information.

http://kentucky.sierraclub.org/resources/factsheets/two-stroke_engines.pdf

If you are interested in the motorcycle and automobile emissions info I can upload the pdfs to my server and post links.

 

[Andyshine77]

There is no perfect system. Just because capitalism is not perfect does not mean it is communism or even anywhere close. Again I will ask what form of communism has ever begun as capitalism? No one has said there is no need for limited government, just that occasionally our government forgets or attempts to reinterpret what its constitutional limits are.

And this is why people that have lived in communist country vomit a little bit when some suggest we are on our way to becoming a communist country, what a joke. It's extremely insulting to my father when he hears people say we are headed to communism. Fear and fear propaganda is the easiest way to control people.

One must understand much of this has it's roots in the civil war/ war of northern aggression as some in the south call it. This is where fear of government really stems from, at least here in the U.S. Like in the Civil war the poor have been convinced by the wealthy minority to fight for their cause. Genius, wrong but genius.

 

[MuleyJ]

You see communism is really about corrupt capitalism not corrupt government.

And this is why people that have lived in communist country vomit a little bit when some suggest we are on our way to becoming a communist country, what a joke. It's extremely insulting to my father when he hears people say we are headed to communism. Fear and fear propaganda is the easiest way to control people..

I did not say that. I do believe that we may be edging more toward socialism at a semi-alarming rate.

One must understand much of this has it's roots in the civil war/ war of northern aggression as some in the south call it. This is where fear of government really stems from, at least here in the U.S. Like in the Civil war the poor have been convinced by the wealthy minority to fight for their cause. Genius, wrong but genius.

Are you saying that a majority of individuals who want a small, limited government fear too much governmental control due to Civil War style propaganda? If I am understanding you correctly I am either wealthy or of lesser intelligence. I do not fear my government, I just wish they would refer to the constitution for their list of responsibilities instead of inventing them as the political motive arises.