I have a nature's comfort 250 owb, about 70 feet from my home. I buried the 4'' black solid congrated pipe about 3 feet deep. Not sure what brand of pipe i have. Inside the 4'' pipe is two 1'' pex pipe wrapped in silver insulation. Anyways christmas eve my basement was flooded with water coming from the 4'' pipe that comes through the basement wall. I thought maybe one of my 1'' lines had a leak but, the water level was fine in owb. So, i am guessing that there is a hole in the black pipe some where allowing water to drain into my basement. So, i have decided to dig pipe back up and fix it. Which way do you guys think may be best to fix it.
Underground insulated pipe
- Thread starter jcheck23
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Scootermsp
ArboristSite Guru
Cb
Spend the money for CB Thermopex (about $13/ft) and wrap it in utility sand when you backfill. I do not even lose 1 degree on a 65' run. It only needs to be 18" down according to dealer and manufacturer. This will help to keep it above your water table. The closed cell foam inside works fantastic. It took about 2 weeks to melt snow above it (mine is about 18-20" deep).
Spend the money for CB Thermopex (about $13/ft) and wrap it in utility sand when you backfill. I do not even lose 1 degree on a 65' run. It only needs to be 18" down according to dealer and manufacturer. This will help to keep it above your water table. The closed cell foam inside works fantastic. It took about 2 weeks to melt snow above it (mine is about 18-20" deep).
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Beefie
Addicted to ArboristSite
When you dig up the pipe and fix where it's leaking , cover the pipe with sand like the above post said but also put a layer of tar paper over the top it won't allow the water to go straight down but instead off to the sides. They have been doing this method for years around here on drain field's, and it's not un common to see one lasting 40+ years.
Beefie
Beefie
This is by far the biggest mistake people make with installs and I fault the dealers for not stressing to do overkill here. Once its in the ground your sunk and can't see where the problem is.
I've had mine in now for 6 years and no problems and here is what I did. Dug the trench 8 inches deeper than needed and put a 4 inch perf tile in the bottom and ran it to drainage. Covered it with 8 inches of pea gravel, installed the feed lines and covered it with pea gravel to about 8 inches from surface soil.
I'm not a big fan of just putting gravel or sand around the feed line with no tile underneath. Why? If the water has no where to go you can actually make your problem worse by making a spot where the water can collect EASIER around your feed line. We can have a huge rain storm and within 16 hours It will be solid over my line. Rememeber, The water comes from ABOVE your line and you need to move it away as fast as possible and drainage tile works 24/7.
I've said it before and as you've found out, this is NOT the place to cut corners.
I've had mine in now for 6 years and no problems and here is what I did. Dug the trench 8 inches deeper than needed and put a 4 inch perf tile in the bottom and ran it to drainage. Covered it with 8 inches of pea gravel, installed the feed lines and covered it with pea gravel to about 8 inches from surface soil.
I'm not a big fan of just putting gravel or sand around the feed line with no tile underneath. Why? If the water has no where to go you can actually make your problem worse by making a spot where the water can collect EASIER around your feed line. We can have a huge rain storm and within 16 hours It will be solid over my line. Rememeber, The water comes from ABOVE your line and you need to move it away as fast as possible and drainage tile works 24/7.
I've said it before and as you've found out, this is NOT the place to cut corners.
sorethumbs
ArboristSite Lurker
Need more info! Are you positive that the water was comming out of the pipe and not from around the outside of the pipe? Was hydrolic cement used to fill around it? Was there a thaw at time? Was your sump pump running? Is the other end of the pipe sealed very well? Where you doing anything that could have created a negative pressure situation in the house at x-mas time - like using your fireplace?
I'd eliminate all possible problems first, before I dug up that pipe.
I'd eliminate all possible problems first, before I dug up that pipe.
Honestly i didn't think i skimped on anything with my install. Although after following all of my dealer's instructions exactly, i do feel i skimped in some areas. If i have to switch to the therma pex i guess i will but, i would like to make do with the pipe i already have if possible.
Other peoples solutions included installing my current pipe inside 6'' schedule 40 or 6'' black congrugated pipe. Another idea was to pull the pex and insulation out of current 4'' pipe and re-installing it into another 4'' piece of pipe. Any feedback on those ideas will be appreciated!
I am positive that water is coming from inside of black pipe not from around pipe. Yes, i believe that there may have been a thaw around christmas time. Nope did not have a fireplace lit. Do not have a sump pump.
What kind of drain tile were you recommending to put under water line?
Other peoples solutions included installing my current pipe inside 6'' schedule 40 or 6'' black congrugated pipe. Another idea was to pull the pex and insulation out of current 4'' pipe and re-installing it into another 4'' piece of pipe. Any feedback on those ideas will be appreciated!
I am positive that water is coming from inside of black pipe not from around pipe. Yes, i believe that there may have been a thaw around christmas time. Nope did not have a fireplace lit. Do not have a sump pump.
What kind of drain tile were you recommending to put under water line?
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sorethumbs
ArboristSite Lurker
Soooo, where is all this water comming from? is this groundwater, surface drainage, or condensate? Just how much water are we talking about, did you literally flood your basement, as in 1,000's of gallons of water?
I can't imagine this is groundwater or your basement would be a lake (in absence of a sump-pump).
I'm kind of thinking the same would be true for surface drainage. I can't imagine how much pressure is on you walls if there's that much water building-up.
Condensate can be a pretty wierd thing. Its hard to image 1,000's of gallons of condensate forming but it's possible. Is the outside end of the pipe sealed? Can you feel air-flow entering the basement through the pipe?
Was this a one-time occurace? What has/has not happened since december?
I can't imagine this is groundwater or your basement would be a lake (in absence of a sump-pump).
I'm kind of thinking the same would be true for surface drainage. I can't imagine how much pressure is on you walls if there's that much water building-up.
Condensate can be a pretty wierd thing. Its hard to image 1,000's of gallons of condensate forming but it's possible. Is the outside end of the pipe sealed? Can you feel air-flow entering the basement through the pipe?
Was this a one-time occurace? What has/has not happened since december?
itn
ArboristSite Operative
buddy of mine had the same problem last month during heavy rain. frost was still in the ground. His is a 300ft run. His dealer is going to cover the pipe cost. buddy is going to dig it up when it warms up. The bet is that a mouse chewed in it.
I installed mine before all the new style, ready made feedline stuff was available. It is the old style pex wrapped in 8 inches of foam. I used 8 inch HI-Q solid field tile. It has Orings for sealing on the ends but I have no doubts that water can get in there. My situation was a little different as it goes under a 50ft garage floor before entering the basement. I sloped it slightly to the outside(with 4 inch perferated field tile under it) of the garage. Feed line slope down hard to that point so that is where the main drainage line takes the water away. I actually drilled 3 large holes in the bottom of the 8 inch line so that IF water did get in there from somewhere it COULD get out in the low. 4 inch perferated field tile is more than enough for drainage.
The best thing with my set up is I can pull it all out with ease and not dig up anything.
Yes, the pipes lay on each other and there is heat transfer between them but quite frankly my usage (13 cord) is fine with me and have 166 cord cut and under roof so it's not worth switching pipe till something major goes wrong, maybe never.
I don't buy the condensation thing. You CAN'T get that much water from it. If your positive your line isn't leaking water is just coming in the joints of your pipe somewhere. An inch of rain on 1 acre is a huge amount of water and it all goes down somwhere. It, like electricity, takes the path of least resistance and you line is it.
I am not real sure where the water is coming from! The black pipe that enters through my basement wall is probably three foot longer then it needs to be. I have elevated the pipe with blocks of wood under a five gallon bucket. I do check the bucket frequently and it does have a gallon or so it. It has been nothing like christmas eve! I am worried about a re-occurrence of water coming in to my basement and also losing heat with the wet insulation. I am guessing that there was 1000 gallons of water or around 4'' deep in the basement. When i called my dealer about it he said that i probably dropped a large rock on to pipe while back filling causing a hole. Truth be told i back filled the first foot or so by hand to insure that i would not do what he claims happened. I did not have a good transaction with my dealer so, i did not expect him to help.
John D
Addicted to ArboristSite
As you found out drainage pipe is just that.It isnt meant to and will not keep water out. I would not use it again irreguardless,you clearly are in an area with a high water table.You should just buy the thermoplex/log stor lines,and be done with it.If not at least go with 6" PVC glued,and checked for leaks.if you only need sweeps at the ends,you probably can pull new ines thru later if needed.I got a feeling I will be doing the same thing sooner or later.
KLUSTER
ArboristSite Lurker
Water leak ??
IF YOU KNOW YOUR LINES ARE GOOD, MUST BE YOUR CORRAGATED PIPE. LIKE THE OTHER GUY SAID, ITS MADE FOR DRAINAGE. I HAVE A 65' RUN OF 8 INCH SCD. 40, 3' DEEP. IT HOUSES 3 ONE INCH , 2 THREE QUARTER, @1 HALF INCH LINE , ALL WRAPPED WITH INSULATION IN A BUNDLE. ALSO RAN 3 RUNS OF 12-2 WIRE ALSO. NEVER HAD ANY LEAKS. MAKE SURE PIPE EXTENDS ABOVE GROUND LEVEL AT STOVE, MINE IS 8-10 INCHES HIGH INSIDE BACK OF STOVE. GLUE ALL SEAMS GOOD,AND SEAL PIPE AT WALL GOOD, SHOULD BE PROBLEM FREE!! STOVE IS A MAHOENING 300 SERIES. HAVE 3 OTHER FRIENDS WITH SAME BRAND STOVE, THEY NEVER HAD ANY LEAKS EITHER. GOOD LUCK, HOPE THIS HELPS, KLUSTER
IF YOU KNOW YOUR LINES ARE GOOD, MUST BE YOUR CORRAGATED PIPE. LIKE THE OTHER GUY SAID, ITS MADE FOR DRAINAGE. I HAVE A 65' RUN OF 8 INCH SCD. 40, 3' DEEP. IT HOUSES 3 ONE INCH , 2 THREE QUARTER, @1 HALF INCH LINE , ALL WRAPPED WITH INSULATION IN A BUNDLE. ALSO RAN 3 RUNS OF 12-2 WIRE ALSO. NEVER HAD ANY LEAKS. MAKE SURE PIPE EXTENDS ABOVE GROUND LEVEL AT STOVE, MINE IS 8-10 INCHES HIGH INSIDE BACK OF STOVE. GLUE ALL SEAMS GOOD,AND SEAL PIPE AT WALL GOOD, SHOULD BE PROBLEM FREE!! STOVE IS A MAHOENING 300 SERIES. HAVE 3 OTHER FRIENDS WITH SAME BRAND STOVE, THEY NEVER HAD ANY LEAKS EITHER. GOOD LUCK, HOPE THIS HELPS, KLUSTER
KLUSTER
ArboristSite Lurker
Jcheck, also, if you use 6 or 8 in. Pipe use 45 degree elbows with a 3-4' straight between them to acheave a 90 degree turn. Much easier to pull pipe through, pex tubing doesent like to bend!!
blakey
ArboristSite Operative
You could reuse your pex lines but have them spray foamed right in the trench, getting rid of the pipe/tile altogether. That is how mine is insulated, I also have it sitting on a bed of drainage stone.
sorethumbs
ArboristSite Lurker
Blaky, that is an excellent suggestion. He already has the pipe, so I'm guessing spray-foaming would be quite a bit cheeper than the pre-insulated pipe. I've read that people are having excellent results with the foaming, as long as the contractor knows what he's doing.
Jcheck after you get that thing dug up please post what you find. I'd like to know if you actually find a hole - and how big. Finding a way to get that water off your pipe is a great idea - no matter what type of insulation system you choose. good luck
Jcheck after you get that thing dug up please post what you find. I'd like to know if you actually find a hole - and how big. Finding a way to get that water off your pipe is a great idea - no matter what type of insulation system you choose. good luck
bnew
ArboristSite Member
I think this was just a wierd winter, because a lot of people I work with had flooded basements also.Super cold ,then warm ,and the water cant disapate and backs up.
Scootermsp
ArboristSite Guru
Go with CB
Don't cut corners here. Over the life of the pipe it could be over 100 cords difference. Also the feed and return lines can be more than 20F difference, having them touch all the way will decrease efficiency. Do it right, do it once. Also the closed cell will not permit water to enter your basement if you properly seal around it.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78770&d=1222469795
Don't cut corners here. Over the life of the pipe it could be over 100 cords difference. Also the feed and return lines can be more than 20F difference, having them touch all the way will decrease efficiency. Do it right, do it once. Also the closed cell will not permit water to enter your basement if you properly seal around it.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78770&d=1222469795
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