Shaver Improvement Forum.... one year later

[ngzcaz]

Anyone who follows these threads knows I was one of the first to express my opinions of these stoves. However, have you read about the CB's rusting and leaking ?.. they are in some instances as well as other OWB's. Lets face it, the oil companies/speculators cut their own throat ( amazing why we don't hear hear the real reason wer'e in a recession, read that big oil ) and a lot of companies like Shaver were trying to fill a demand. As a result quality suffered. Out of the box a Shaver is a Ford or Chevy. We are trying to make Cadillacs out of them and in some instances making problems where they may not exist otherwise. Trial and error is being rewarded by many who followed the first thread. There are those who may feel they indeed now have a Cadillac for far less money. In fact some ideas were for the benefit of most all OWB owners..

Now.. Delivery dates were the biggest problem last year. We all know what areas need improvement, however if there are true lies on the website, kindly explain what they are. As an owner of a Shaver I'd like to know what they are. Other than an illustration of insulation under the firebox, I can't see any. And that may have been unintentional since it wouldnt have changed my mind any, I just would have insulated it myself had I known it before it was lowered.

I think these group of owners aren't afraid to admit shortcomings w/ a purchase. How many expensive vehicles do you see on the side of the road with the hood up ? I see quite a few especially if you factor in the ratio of expensive vs inexpensive vehicles.

:monkey:

 

[pipe76]

Shaver shortcomings

Well, The reason they have a water fill on it is because it's unable to maintain a stable temp, so it's boils, all the time, Not on the website.....

Also to fix that problem you have to alter the blower with your own thermostat, and blower modification, cause what they give you is junk...... Not on the website.....

The insulation gets wet from condensation, which renders it useless... again, do I have to say it..... Not on the website.

 

[Dan-o]

Almost ready for 2nd year

I have done the steam fix, thermostat, insulation in the door and this year I'm going to do the blower mod and reinsulate above the firebox. Should be getting new windows this fall too, so we will see what surprises year number 2 brings.

Positives: I never had to turn on the propane last year, even in the negative 15-20 degree days we had last winter with a 100 year old poorly insulated farm house.

I did stock up ALOT more wood this off season compared to last season where I had to cut in January to stay ahead.

 

[John D]

Well..Maybe in our effort to insulate these things we aren't following some of the edicts regarding ventilation. As I said in an earlier post perhaps removing the top insulation and putting a couple layers of solarguard with its reflective qualities first before adding the rest of the insulation would help in all areas. If it persists maybe a small fore and aft vent at the two eves would do the trick. There's no question with an R-50 rating ( or higher ) snow should remain on these roofs.
John , in your case I think I remember yours being fired quite steadily in order to keep up to heat demands. Is it possible that the top was too tight causing condensation? This is for everyone with any stove.. don't plug up openings where you see them if they are above the insulation. I obviously don't mean holes in the roof or where water can enter. They serve to keep condensation from occurring. Another thought might be that the insulation wasn't spread evenly on the top causing an area that allowed heat to escape. Maybe an area that cant be seen for example from the back. I for example can't see what the front of my stove at the top looks like. Now that heat would mix with the colder air and consequently cause condensation. One area that foam has it all over fiberglass is when it gets wet. Fiberglass becomes almost useless. And.... 750 to insulate the stove sounds like a lot. That would buy an awful lot of cans of Great stuff..
:greenchainsaw:

I dont think snow will ever remain on there roofs as long as there is over a foot of single wall unisulated 5" chimney pipe running thru the "attic" thats running several hundred degrees. As for my boiler firing a lot,yes it was initially,once i laid under it,and put 3 batts of r19 under it,it held temps much better.
As for the moisture,I dont think this is a ventilation issue .In my case,after carefully inspecting everything,I am 99% sure the majority of the water was from the firebox door frame.Above it there was a thick bead of sealer,upon scraping and removing it to pull the front cover,it was apparent that there was a spot dead center in the front where it wasnt sealing.It has rained a lot here,and i think the moisture was absobed by the insulation as it leaked between the front wall and the top of firebox. I am afraid to spray foam insulate this boiler,it just isnt welded tight enough to trust sealing it with closed cell insulation,IMO.
Another beef of mine now that its apart its clear that no one at Shaver ever did any basic construction with the steel they built the OWB with.If they did they would understand the theory or logic behind the way the front of this owb is put together.The outer shell is basically sheet steel,but they do not follow thru and use traditional construction practices at points of opening to keep water out.The openings for the firebox door,and ash pan (Esp on top and sides)should be flashed or a lip welded behind the front panel,so water cannot back up and travel into the insulation.It would have no choice but to go back out or down.If a shed was built this way the OSB would be rotted in less that a yrs time.They expect a thick bead of "sealer" to provide a weatherproof seal when exposed to creosote,direct sunlightlight,and constant heat from the OWB and a constant pounding from water/snow.Of course its going to leak.
I think im going to fire mine up with the panels off,just throw the doors back on,and see what else is leaking...i got a feeling the top lip is leaking somewhere,the welds look horrible ,no wya they look good enough to provide a seal.Any moisture in there will soak the insulation as well.

 

[ngzcaz]

Well, The reason they have a water fill on it is because it's unable to maintain a stable temp, so it's boils, all the time, Not on the website.....

Also to fix that problem you have to alter the blower with your own thermostat, and blower modification, cause what they give you is junk...... Not on the website.....

The insulation gets wet from condensation, which renders it useless... again, do I have to say it..... Not on the website.

None of the things you mentioned are lies. They are distortions, half truths and your impression of these units. Do you even have one to be able to state with such certainty these conditions exist in every OWB ? Have you spoken to every single owner and verified these exist in every OWB ? Of course you haven't. I remember a fellow last year that had a financial bicker w/ Shaver. That was between him and Shaver. It almost seems you have the same bashing attitude. The reason I started these forums was to have an exchange of information, and of course in order to improve this things we have to find out what works and what can be improved. Bashing is ok, I've done my share, but I've also shared what worked and made an effort to make things better. Help us be part of the solution instead of part of the problem..... I REALLY can't believe I'm somewhat coming to Shavers defense.
If Ben is reading this, he must really be chuckling at my expense right now.

:deadhorse:

 

[ngzcaz]

John , you're absolutely right regarding the chimney. Insulating it is imperative to condensing the air around it which in all probability causing most if not all of the wetness if you have any in that particular area. When I got my stove last year I recaulked around the chimney area outside because I saw a bit of daylight. I also recaulked around the door and ashpan while I was at it. I haven't ripped mine off to see if there was a leak but I dont see anything that would indicate it. As I noted earlier, the welds are not good but so far aren't leaking. At least with mild steel its an easy fix. Stainless with its annealing problems is a whole different ball game as I read in a CB post last year.

At least I can say I haven't had wet insulation that I've detected anyway, the oil man is staying away and none of the mods I've done has cost me more than a few dollars. Since I have a smaller home I can get away with a lower setting on the stat eliminating so far the need to change stats. And I'm hoping for better this year with a simple change with mine.

*** and there is snow on my roof in the winter as there should be if the chimney is insulated


:greenchainsaw:

 

[John D]

At least I can say I haven't had wet insulation that I've detected anyway, the oil man is staying away and none of the mods I've done has cost me more than a few dollars.

:greenchainsaw:

I couldnt detect any wet insulation until i removed the front panel.I had the sides off first,everything was dry.There is no way to know its wet without removing it and sticking your fingers there or look at the rust.Mine was wet in some spots to the point that pushing on the insulation was like wringing out a sponge,water poured out in spots.

 

[Windwalker7]

Let me get this right, you guys insulated the chimney pipe?

How did you secure the insulation around it?

I've nevr had any condensation build up in the "attic" of my 165.

I did have one problem thougfh. Last year right before I decided to shut my boiler down , I wanted to try to burn out some of the creosote.

I left the fire go out and left the water cool way down.

I filled the fire box with card board and news paper and lit it on fire. I opened the blower flap all the way open and let it blow full force.

I assumed that the fire would burn out quickly so I just walked away from it and went inside. I came out about a half hour later to see flames around my chimney pipe. (around it not coming out of it)

It seems that the hi-temp silicone and some insulation had caught fire from the chimney getting so hot.

Luckily I was watering some grass seed earlier and had the garden hose close enough to put out the fire.

I knew it would get hot but never thought that it would stay hot long enough to do all that.

I recaulked around the chimney a few days later. The hi temp silicone I resealed with was rated for 600* not sure if it is rated high enough or not.

 

[ngzcaz]

I had a flame up or two but nothing that resulted in what you're describing. I had wrapped the solargard around the chimney a few times and then secured it with S.S. tape. I recently conducted my own blowtorch test with the solarguard and concluded I'm changing to unfaced batts instead. My silicone did not suffer any effects although thats a valid point with a very hot fire for a prolonged period of time. Thanks for sharing that..

 

[user 28181]

well, maybe I oughta knock on wood that our 165's been runnin for 18 months now with the original therm-o-disc thermostat in it,haven't replaced anything important yet..just the poorly placed motion detector light...we used it for DHW for 2 summers now...pump needed a whack last week to get it movin though...Did the vent fix to stop steamin and sealed that coil lid real good..also added 6 feet to the chimney...for when the wind's blowin the wrong way..Figure we saved $3300 so far on oil....I use a piece of all thread with a fender washer on the end and scrape the chimney every 2 weeks or so, and open the door and let it rip once in a while to burn it out.Bought 2 spare thermostats just in case,they're still on the shelf..I'm baffled by the negativity..and need for modifications...Maybe Shaver got sloppy but there must be other satisfied customers..

 

[headleyj]

all,
I ran a 165 last year and was decently pleased with it. Yes condensation on the inside of the roof was a plenty. I thought about spray foaming as well, but worried about the welds too and then how fun it'd be to scrape that crap off

So I read about all these mods - is there a lsit of them somewhere??? I take it ya'll had somethign similar to this last year too.

Vent pipe mod - the overflow you mean? yeah it steams there but if you seal it and seal the domestic water coil "lid" isn't it somewhat pressurized?

Stat - yeah that was a cheap-azz way to do it I agree. So what's the Rayco, why is it better and how does it install?

I too notived my chimney seal is showing daylight so I gotta reseal that here soon. I wanted to stuff more insualtion in the roof and below as well, but aren't ya jsut gonna have to replace it again next year if it condensates still?

 

[fletcher0780]

all,
I ran a 165 last year and was decently pleased with it. Yes condensation on the inside of the roof was a plenty. I thought about spray foaming as well, but worried about the welds too and then how fun it'd be to scrape that crap off

So I read about all these mods - is there a lsit of them somewhere??? I take it ya'll had somethign similar to this last year too.

Vent pipe mod - the overflow you mean? yeah it steams there but if you seal it and seal the domestic water coil "lid" isn't it somewhat pressurized?

Stat - yeah that was a cheap-azz way to do it I agree. So what's the Rayco, why is it better and how does it install?

I too notived my chimney seal is showing daylight so I gotta reseal that here soon. I wanted to stuff more insualtion in the roof and below as well, but aren't ya jsut gonna have to replace it again next year if it condensates still?

I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.

 

[headleyj]

I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.

Fantastic, thank you!

I found this old thread too.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462

Man I almost did several of these a few weekends ago...wife talked me out of it. I'll be reinsulating the whole thing and modifyign the vent pipe for sure.

 

[ngzcaz]

I did a test burn today with the relocated original stat and lo and behold its actually w/in the 8 degrees as stated by the company. Since its less than a day I'll have to see how it regulates itself as far as max/min temps are concerned. However, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. A major swing in the right direction and it may be as simple as moving it up a couple of inches and making sure the back is securely touching the steel. The door insulation is marginal at best it seems. The door still gets warmer than I'd like but....Blower door is still about a third open.

 

[Windwalker7]

I read somewhere that putting dielectric grease on the back of the thermostat will help it read the temperature better.

 

[ngzcaz]

I've checked it several times yesterday and more recently this morning. Still 8 degrees or less variance. Still cautiously optimistic..

:greenchainsaw:

 

[John D]

I've checked it several times yesterday and more recently this morning. Still 8 degrees or less variance. Still cautiously optimistic..

:greenchainsaw:

thats great news. From experimenting with the ranco stat,ive learned that 5 degrees differential works best with my 250.....

 

[headleyj]

I did a test burn today with the relocated original stat and lo and behold its actually w/in the 8 degrees as stated by the company. Since its less than a day I'll have to see how it regulates itself as far as max/min temps are concerned. However, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. A major swing in the right direction and it may be as simple as moving it up a couple of inches and making sure the back is securely touching the steel. The door insulation is marginal at best it seems. The door still gets warmer than I'd like but....Blower door is still about a third open.

can you detail for me how/ where you relocated the original thermostat to? Also are you somehow checking how much it overshoots? (ie: set to 150°F, fan kicks off at 165°F or ???)

Thanks,
Josh

 

[headleyj]

I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.

I saw your picture of your steam fix on post 26 here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462&page=2

Does that not still steam a little bit sicne your water level isn't 100% closing the tube off?

 

[fletcher0780]

I saw your picture of your steam fix on post 26 here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462&page=2

Does that not still steam a little bit sicne your water level isn't 100% closing the tube off?

Yeah, that was version 0.1 It is best to use a very short 90* and allow it to flow out the top effectifly limiting the water surface area exposed to atmoshphere (which is what creates steam). I had an issue when my 90* was a bit too tall and the boiler leaned to the rear slightly, this allowed water to leak from my DHW cover (stupid design). I think I might just thread the pipe and add a black iron 90* to neaten things up a bit. If your DHW cover isn't sealed, pull it off and keep an eye on your water level after you add the 90* and are filling it.

Oh yeah, don't worry about the water in the 90* freezing, I had mine on in -15* weather with no freezing.

I also found a good pipe to use to extend the chimney without the 500lb single wall shaver adapter pipe. The inside (stainless pipe) of the Selkirk metalbestos 266036 double wall smoke pipe just fits over the factory chimney. Flaten out the crimps a bit, cut a small notch on the outer black pipe to allow for a large hose clamp, and slide it all the way down to your roof, or even the top of the water tank if you desire. You will now have a standard pipe size allowing for extension and cap options, it will be insulated (1/4 air gap rates for 6" to combustables). I used single wall pipe to extend my chimney last year and it worked for about two weeks until it clogged up because of not being insulated. I got my here: http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(alslozy1x5lpdx55wmktsxit)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=45065&

I'm building a shed over my boiler and wood storage now, but I hope to have some time to add insulation before I fire up the boiler. Does anyone know if I can fit a piece of rigid foam below the water tank, but above the square tubing the bottom of the siding attaches to, or should I just shoot spray foam under the tank?