Shaver Improvement Forum

[smus]

optimum burn efficiency

I know there has be a way to "tune" the burners to burn @ max efficiency but, have no way of how to determine what that might be. What would be the optimum water temp and spread. Air flow I am sure is also critical as well. It seems to very difficult to measure how well my burner is using the wood I feed it. I enjoy cutting and splitting but, I have other things I like to do as well. The amount of wood used does take a good bit of time.
I wonder if water temp is like speed in a auto and is exponential in usage rather than lineal. What about temp spread? there has been a good deal of talk about it but, has anything been substantiated? I am curious if it has. How could proper airflow be quantified and measured to determine max burn %.
The "good" folks @ NESCOM have done a good bit of study and seem to give the opinion that wood boilers are about as bad as it gets when it comes to heating. Wouldn't it be nice if they would spend some time and effort in trying to help improve the existing situation rather that trying to tear down a group that is working to reduce our oil needs and help lower our cost of living at the same time.

 

[Windwalker7]

OK... I insulated under my 250. I installed it on the ship pallet after mods. I plugged it up good under there. I had already did a fan mod with the cheap laundry flap and 45 degree stove pipe. Today I installed the Ranco and tacked on an extra 30" extension to the stove pipe. ( temporary ) It took a little tinkering but I think I have created a Monster..I can't wait til tomorrow to see how it all works after the programmable thermostat is done with it.
Does anyone run a programmable stat in the house? Mine shuts the stove down until about 5am. Then in the morning the furnace cycles a few times while trying to catch up to temp. After that no more cycling. House and shop are HOT!! and thats what its' all about!:rockn:

I just wanted to warn you if you didn't find out already.......sometimes when I go to fill mine, I will hear the blower running. When I open the fire box door, it will belch flames out.

I have a switch to shut the blower down for this. Sometimes I switch it off, sometimes not. Kinda like feeding a fire breathing dragon.

On another note, I thought of extending my chimney also. I hear the taller chimney will pull more draft. I wondered if it would pull enough to open the flapper on the damper. I didn't want that to happen so I never extended it.

Might want to keep an eye on that!

 

[scag52]

Does anyone run a programmable stat in the house? Mine shuts the stove down until about 5am. Then in the morning the furnace cycles a few times while trying to catch up to temp. After that no more cycling. :

I do ,, (Comes on 73*at 5:30 am ) off 67* at 6:00 am )back on 73*at 4:00 pm Off 67* at 10:00 pm

 

[Yomax4]

Yes I will need to check again to see if the taller stack opens the damper. It did not seem to at first glance.

To keep the fire breathing Dragon at bay without turning off the fan, I put in a 1/4' thick x 12"x12" piece of plate at the front of the grates. This seems to keep the roar towards the middle of the beast. One thing that was very obvious was that the new damper system really gets things cookin in a hurry. And because it closes completely, I am using less wood.

I am usure who but some stove manufactures are trying to get these things to be more efficient. What you all have taught me is how to get the most heat in a consistant manner out of the stove. What they need is a way to get the heat with less wood. I estimate that I burn 12 - 14 cords of Premium Oak, Red Elm, Hop Horn Beam ( iron wood ) Hickory and Cherry. Lessor woods I mix in spring or fall would be Maple, Paper Birch and Hack Berry. In the warmer months I burn dry Box Elder and Poplar just to heat water. I turn the other pumps off and just use the pump on the water heater.
From June - August I have burn Propane to heat the water

 

[Holdstihl]

I know there has be a way to "tune" the burners to burn @ max efficiency but, have no way of how to determine what that might be. What would be the optimum water temp and spread. Air flow I am sure is also critical as well. It seems to very difficult to measure how well my burner is using the wood I feed it. I enjoy cutting and splitting but, I have other things I like to do as well. The amount of wood used does take a good bit of time.
I wonder if water temp is like speed in a auto and is exponential in usage rather than lineal. What about temp spread? there has been a good deal of talk about it but, has anything been substantiated? I am curious if it has. How could proper airflow be quantified and measured to determine max burn %.
The "good" folks @ NESCOM have done a good bit of study and seem to give the opinion that wood boilers are about as bad as it gets when it comes to heating. Wouldn't it be nice if they would spend some time and effort in trying to help improve the existing situation rather that trying to tear down a group that is working to reduce our oil needs and help lower our cost of living at the same time.[/QUOTE

I'm no engineer but I'd think there are too many variables involved, type and moisture of the wood, ambient air temp, BTU load on the boiler, etc. for a consistent high effeciency. There would have to be sensors everywhere and a computer to control the outputs, kind of like a modern diesel engine. The difference as I see it, is that with engines, or any other heating system I can think of, btu output is controlled by changing the rate of fuel (and air in some cases) On or off like a gas furnace, or variable like an engine. With a wood burner, there's a huge pile of fuel with a vast range of stored btu's, controlled by ....... supplying a fixed rate of air - or no air? Yeah, those people might be right. Having said that, I think a more effecient conventional wood boiler would have a huge forced air system (where there would be no smoke when burning the highest btu wood) and a multipass exhaust system to extract as much heat as possible from it. In other words, not a Shaver

 

[Yomax4]

Shavaerage

I just wanted to post back on the Mods you guys made me make. ( out of common sense) I installed the inexpensive but shockingly influencial dryer flap in a stove pipe and a Ranco. Now I am burning less wood and can run the stove 30 degrees cooler due to the reaction time of the Ranco and the blast the stove gets from the damper. These mods along with the underbelly insulation have transformed the Shaver. I used a 1" piece of pex that has a good un removable bend to strap onto the overflow stem. Works great! No Steam anymore!!!!!!

 

[Windwalker7]

That is good to hear! Those mods really wake up the Shaver don't they?

They aren't even that expensive.


You'd think someone from Shaver would have done them years ago!

For the vent steam fix I have a piece of 1" pex with a clear plastic elbow.
I added more water not sure how many gallons but when viewing the elbow the water level is slightly higher than the top of the metal factory vent tube.

If you add more water be careful not to go higher than the domestic hot water cover plate. It might leak.

Before I raised the water level above the factory vent tube, I still had a little water loss. I didn't see any steam but had to add water once in while. Now that I raised the water level above the factory vent tube I haven't added water yet.


With the clear plastic elbow, I can see where the water level is at.

 

[ngzcaz]

That is good to hear! Those mods really wake up the Shaver don't they?

They aren't even that expensive.


You'd think someone from Shaver would have done them years ago!

For the vent steam fix I have a piece of 1" pex with a clear plastic elbow.
I added more water not sure how many gallons but when viewing the elbow the water level is slightly higher than the top of the metal factory vent tube.

If you add more water be careful not to go higher than the domestic hot water cover plate. It might leak.

Before I raised the water level above the factory vent tube, I still had a little water loss. I didn't see any steam but had to add water once in while. Now that I raised the water level above the factory vent tube I haven't added water yet.


With the clear plastic elbow, I can see where the water level is at.

Where did you get the clear plastic elbow ? I've been looking for one for over a year. Is it heat resistant ? I did the inch pex with the bend for the last couple of years but I'd rather have the clear plastic. All I could do was heat up the pex so it loses its color and becomes translucent but you can't see the water that well. I've only been adding water so that the water is about 1/2 way in the factory vent tube. By going higher than the vent tube aren't you making it a pressurized vessel ?

:monkey:

 

[Windwalker7]

I also had just a bent 1" piece of pex.

The elbow isn't exactly clear but you can see the water in it. Kinda clear/whiteish in color.

Got it at tractor supply. They have al kinds of plastic fittings and stuff.

Intead of clamping it, I just put a bunch o silicone to hold it to th pex. So far , so good.

Not sure of the temp rating on the elbow, but being exposed to outside temps should offset the hot water inside it I would think.

 

[Windwalker7]

Even though the water level is higher it is still open. I'm no physicist, but I think it would still vent. I could be wrong!

Had it this way for awhile.


Hmmmmmm, now you got me thinking!

 

[John D]

I am suprised to see people using programmable stats in the house for such large temp differences....I keep mine at 69-70 all the time,I find it takes more work,wood,and electric to let the house get down to 67 and try to get it back up to 70,esp in the real cold...and if during that time,someone wants enough hot water to kick on the circ for the DHW 40 gallon superstore...well everything is going to take quite a while to be satisfied...it will do it all,but the indoor furnace temps will lag behind and drop to 140-150 when all zomes are on...even though its 180 outside...

 

[Yomax4]

I use a programable thermostat that shuts down to 65 at night and 70 the rest of the time. I set it at 65 at night because it is a better sleeping temp for me. In the morning when it calls for heat, The furnace starts and stops about 10 times until the Boiler gets roaring again. Often the wood is nearly gone but it does catch up after about 45 minutes. If I didn't't preffer the 65 night temp I believe too that it would be easier on the OWB.
Also. I added a 30" pipe to my standard Shaver pipe and someone asked if the extra draft caused the fan flap to open more. The answer is not so far. I had put in a 1" deck screw 1/2" up from the bottom of the flap to help keep it closed when off. Everything is working way to good, Makes me think something bad is about to happen.

 

[applefarmer]

You guys really think it takes more wood to drop the house temp at night then have it recover in the morning, rather then to keep it constant? I really thought I was saving some wood by letting the house cool down at night and when we are not here. I also find it more comfortable to sleep at a cooler temp.

I have a hawkin owb not a shaver and I have a programable thermostat for the house. It kicks back to 68 at night then 73 in the morning and when we are here. It takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to do this depending in outside temp. Yes the boiler is pulling pretty hard when the house is climbing back to 73, but it sits mostly idle when it drops to 68.

However are setups are different (I think). My circulator pump runs 24/7 and I have a plate hx for my dhw. I also have my water temp to cycle between 135 and 165 in the boiler. My house is 2800 sq feet with A LOT of big windows, last year I used about 8 cord. I think I will try both ways and see if there is a difference this week.

 

[ngzcaz]

Even though the water level is higher it is still open. I'm no physicist, but I think it would still vent. I could be wrong!

Had it this way for awhile.


Hmmmmmm, now you got me thinking!

If the water level is higher than your vent tube it can't vent. Its a great way to solve the steaming issue because the water level won't let it. I could be wrong here too but I think you have a slightly pressurized vessel. Maybe your water temp is low enough that you haven't had any issues or maybe its venting a bit out that dumb top plate where one adds chemicals ( is it wet around that area ? ) but... Perhaps someone with a little expertise can chime in here.

 

[Yomax4]

I'm not so sure mine uses more wood because of the temp drop at night. it just struggles to get back up to temp in the morning. My Aquastat on my exchanger in my plenum is set at 135 degrees. If the water gets below that, It will turn off until it senses 135 degree water again which is within 30 seconds or so. Then it keeps cycling like that until it gets up over 135 and then it will run until the house gets up to temp.I too run my pump 24/7 from the boiler to the house. Most of my troubles have been taken care of with the Ranco, Insulation, Fan Mod and Pipe extension. All of these have shortened the cycling times in the morning.

 

[smus]

Optimum settings

I posted earlier about tuning the furnace. I realize that there are several variables but, at the same time I would think that even with that considered, there are statements of fact that may be made with studies and experience. The first to come to mind, is what would be the ideal temp setting/spread for maximum benefit of fuel (wood) used. It seems that the lower temps would be most efficient similar to what you who expect with speed and fuel mileage in an auto. I am curious if this factor of usage is exponential or lineal. With that info a more informed decision can be made as to what temps and spread should be used depending upon conditions (outside temps). It may mean that raising the boiler temp from 150* to 175* is no big deal and should be considered when it gets really cold. Then again, it may mean that this increase in temps (approx 15%) may increase wood usage by such a large factor( 20-30% ???) this is not such a good idea.
Hopefully I have made myself a little more clear. If we can save just 10% on wood usage, that is a significant amount of time/money/energy.

 

[Yomax4]

I usually bump up the water temp when it starts to get real cold like sub zero. I may not have to now because of the Mods. Time will tell but I believe I am using less wood now and I am also running at the lowest water temp I ever have. It's at 155. I always used to run it at 185 this time of year. I think with the Ranco kicking the fan on at a lower differential than the what we got with the water heater temp control has made the difference. Gettin cold in MN. ( went ice fishing today ) so I would guess that I will be crankin it up..

 

[John D]

If the water level is higher than your vent tube it can't vent. Its a great way to solve the steaming issue because the water level won't let it. I could be wrong here too but I think you have a slightly pressurized vessel. Maybe your water temp is low enough that you haven't had any issues or maybe its venting a bit out that dumb top plate where one adds chemicals ( is it wet around that area ? ) but... Perhaps someone with a little expertise can chime in here.

As far as pressure goes,there can be no more pressure than what it would take to push the small column of water up against gravity,and force it to run out the vent....this amount of pressure is so minimal,it isnt even what amounts to what you could blow thru a straw under 1 psi......it cannot build any real pressure unless someone extended the vent pipe upwards 10-20 feet or more ,at that point the 1/2" column of water would be heavy enough to offer some resistance to being pushed out,so pressure would build behind it until enough is built to force the water out....Im not engineer,but this seems pretty simple,if im wrong,I apologize in advance....

 

[urhstry]

I am surprised to see people using programmable stats in the house for such large temp differences....I keep mine at 69-70 all the time,I find it takes more work,wood,and electric to let the house get down to 67 and try to get it back up to 70,esp in the real cold...and if during that time,someone wants enough hot water to kick on the circ for the DHW 40 gallon superstore...well everything is going to take quite a while to be satisfied...it will do it all,but the indoor furnace temps will lag behind and drop to 140-150 when all zones are on...even though its 180 outside...

I agree 100%. I tried the programming thing and it wasn't working out. And I find that once the temp gets a few degrees down for a better part of the day, it has a hard time getting back up and you use a lot more wood.

 

[Yomax4]

My 1st Shaver was a 165 and I had the main pump lock up due to crap in the tank. What that did was let the fire boil the water in the tank until it did push the water out of the overflow. I was using a piece of 3/4 copper tube with an elbow that I had duct taped on. That hot boiling water just bubbled and gently flowed out of the tube. No real pressure or at least not enough to blow the silicone seal around the water coil cover. 2 weeks later I pulled a piece of insulation through the overflow spout that was blocking it. If you buy a Shaver, Do a good visual inpection of the water tank prior to filling it up. In other forums people reported finding candy wrappers, chip bags and cigarette butts in the tanks.