Vegetable oil for bar oil-watch this, think this

[Frank Savage]

A year ago, I bought a canister of frying sunflower oil to test it´s use as a bar oil and to test how severe the rumour about frozen oilpumps is. The canister was few days before expiration date.

I mixed it in 20:1 to 5:1 with new motoroil, depending on how hard wood I was going to cut or how was the temperature. Just to have some reserve in lubrication, to add some viscosity and I supposed easier cleaning.
The setup worked well, the oil is just a bit less viscous, so with non-adjustable oil pump the saw can go through bar oil tank in 0,6 to 0,9 of volume of fuel tank. Check is necessary. With 5 % of motoroil, the cleaning is way much easier than with pure veg oil.
(I think a lot of people found the same).

I was curious about sealed flasks I left to stand, just to see what happens. About 3 months after the expiration date, stripes of some goo started to form. It stopped after about 4 more months, while the goo coagulated together. Also, about 2 months after exp date, goo was visible while draining still warm bar oil from saw after work, when it was changed for mineral oil for storage.

Result of filtering of approx 1,5 l/3,5 pints which standed cool for one year is here, empty 308 Win case added for some measure (I don´t have an inch ruler on hand now and this is international enought, I hope):

[/URL]

Plus the less coagulated goo is soakend fruther in the filtration pad. The goo smells very close to some refined, painter´s boiled linseed oil.

The rest of oil is a bit more clear, after the goo extraction. Even more clear than when bought. Seems to me that is also more slippery in fingers, while these pieces are pretty rough (albeit relatively soft) and crumbly. (I must say that any soy oil I had in hands was somehow "rough", the same counts for any darker oils from rape plant (colza?) and mixes. Mixed veg oils are generaly a bu//*+-t...).

Maybe interesting not only from standpoint of chainsaw maitenance, but also kitchen manners (pan too hot) or McDonalds or so, where the oils are used few days, on working temp all the time, with air (and oxygen) free to move in...

 

[Rookie1]

Interesting. I cant see pics though.:msp_mad:

 

[aquan8tor]

Very interesting thread. I've been using Canola oil on and off for years in my milling saw. After it sat for about a year due to a traumatic piston event (sucked the carb plate through the cylinder), I noticed similar stuff in the oil reservoir, even though I'd filled it up with conventional oil before letting it sit. It looks similar to the glycerin that is left over from making bio diesel out of vegetable oil. It is nasty stuff. Perhaps some sort of chemical reaction/separation has happened to the oil over time. The globs in my oil tank looked very similar to yours, but seemed to pass through the oil pump fine when diluted with conventional oil.


Also, I've noticed that the oily residue with canola oil (I also used sunflower and mixed vegetable oil when it was cheap) seems to dry out with the sawdust. It is extremely difficult to clean off the gunk on the saw parts that are from vegetable based oils; the dust from milling and the oil seem to react with each other like epoxy!!! Very different than conventional oil and sawdust do. In fact, I had to resort to a utility knife blade scraper to remove the hardened gunk from the bar. I'm not 100% certain, but I think that the last log I milled up was cherry; nothing particularly gummy or reactive there. The stuff kinda looked like hardened varnish, and was every bit as tough to remove.

After the extra cleanup involved when rebuilding my 394XP, I'm probably going to be using regular bar oil when milling. Plus, canola oil has gone up in price so much in the last couple years that it is now quite a bit cheaper to buy bar oil rather than any vegetable oil. It used to be that I could get a gallon of generic brand Canola for $4.99. Now its about $15, and more for the name brand stuff. I use more Canola, so the bar oil is a lot more economical. Plus, after talking to a scientist who studied hazardous materials in groundwater, he informed me that when spread out, especially when mixed on something to increase surface area, conventional oil is going to biodegrade more quickly than I'd thought.

 

[zogger]

With the next batch....

Perhaps mix in well some normal off the shelf diesel conditioner with the biocide? You might could have gotten some sort of algae buildup in that oil.

Don't know but I am interested in this subject, long term I would love to make (as in grow and process) all my liquid fuels and lubricants, at least enough for the small engines.

I have not priced bulk castor oil, but I understand that is used for alternative oil use. Was more common in the past. Easy enough to grow castor bean. And perhaps you could low temp evaporate it a little to get it to a thicker consistency.

 

[GASoline71]

You couldn't pay me to run that stuff.

Gary

 

[lfnh]

+1
Yup, i'll pass on that.

 

[mattinky]

+2, I'll just go buy a gallon of bar oil, why are people using that oil?

 

[Hddnis]

Any oil you use needs to have detergents in it to keep deposits from forming. When you buy bar oil that is already mixed in for you. If you want to run veggie oil you need to mix some in yourself. A an hour or two searching the internet will give you many different formulations that have been used by many people with varying accounts of success.


I've used it with 1/8th cup of Dawn dish soap to a gallon of oil without getting any lumps or deposits from the oil. Didn't harden on the bar or clutch cover either.

At this point regular bar oil is cheaper and I'm not cutting anywhere that requires veggy oils so I've not used any in some time, couple of years.




Mr. HE

 

[Frank Savage]

Sorry for that-rape plant/colza oil is the canola oil. My mistake, mind not serving and using wrong, non-technical kind of dictionary...

These lumps occured in veg oil mixed with mineral oil as well as in container which was filled with pure sunflower oil, sealed and left year ago. I´m afraid it has something to do with the rafination process.
The soy oil is now distinctively "gritty" between fingers. I can´t find any reason, but IS. Wouldn´t mind to infuse that mess into a saw year ago and the less now.

Soap to prevent hard residues is quite similar approach as is used in some black powder rifle lubes, but it lowers the surface tension of the oil-bad thing in high velocity and somehow high pressure application as bar oil is. But for sure, if using some high viscosity, high pressure hydraulic oil, it may be very helpful.
The mineral oil didn´t help any to dissolving the goo, but heat definitely helps. When draining warm (40-50°C) oil, no goo was visible, until cooled to about 30°C. But still, what a mess, which bakes in rail on every stronger cut in hardwood.

I had the same experience as aquan8tor with the canola oil in the past, so I tried the sunflower. The canola oil is more heat-resistant than the sunflower oil (polymerization starts in sunflower oil at about 185-195°C, in canola oil at about 210°C, if I can remember well-here some sidenotes from research about veg oils and possibility to make diesel from them). But I found sunflower oil polymerized residues more cleaning-friendly. Also it seems to me that sunflower oil needs longer time for polymerization, so build-ups are scraped off, rather than suddenly bakes on.

I just wanted to see what happens and also wanted some alternative lubricator, for occasions when I´m cutting in the most protected zones of potable water supply area, with pretty limited fuel and oil volumes.
Yes, clean, new mineral motor oil, soaked into chips and dust is degraded from most part in about 2 months, some residues may migrate after about 6 months, but degrade quite quickly after then. Thumbrule for sufficiently aired soles at about 50° N (sidenote from hydrogeological survey, related to old loads management). So most of the mineral oil is degraded before it´s realy washed down and out from the chips. On gleyic soles, it´s another story, here mineral oil may persist for years.

 

[john taliaferro]

Ive run some peanut oil on mill it seams to clean up nicer than canola ,and lube a little slicker to . Has any one else tried it ?

 

[GASoline71]

I have... in my turkey fryer. Tasty!

Gary

 

[sefh3]

I know in some area's of cutting like a natural forest they have to run natural oils so it doesn't hurt the environment. I myself have used nothing but bar oil. It's not worth it in the end.

 

[Hddnis]

I have... in my turkey fryer. Tasty!

Gary

Pour it through some cheese cloth the day after Thanksgiving and then run it in your saw. That would be free bar oil.



Mr. HE

 

[PasoRoblesJimmy]

Any oil you use needs to have detergents in it to keep deposits from forming. When you buy bar oil that is already mixed in for you. If you want to run veggie oil you need to mix some in yourself. A an hour or two searching the internet will give you many different formulations that have been used by many people with varying accounts of success.


I've used it with 1/8th cup of Dawn dish soap to a gallon of oil without getting any lumps or deposits from the oil. Didn't harden on the bar or clutch cover either.

At this point regular bar oil is cheaper and I'm not cutting anywhere that requires veggy oils so I've not used any in some time, couple of years.

Mr. HE

The additives being mixed into regular bar oil are not there by chance or accident.

The additives mixed into bar oil by the oil companies have been learned, tried and tested over decades of experience.

Backyard chainsaw users are not going to have a high level of expertise in the complexities of bar oil chemistry.

 

[the westspartan]

I've used canola and mixed vegetable oil exclusively for the past 3 years or so and haven't had a single problem in my work saws. The ONLY problem I have had is in a saw, 028 WB, that sat for a year and a half between uses, and I am not sure that the oil was the issue, as I found no clumps, but the pumps worm-drive got stripped. I replaced it and have not had another issue. The veggie oil is still cheap here, and the majority of cutting I do is on my little chunk of land that I eat and drink off of. It is worth the "risk" of using the veggie stuff to not spray petro-products all over my woods.

In addition I compost all of my sawdust from milling in our humanure toilet to use in our gardens and would prefer to not have the additives and dino oil included in my garden soil.

 

[zogger]

Living the life!

I've used canola and mixed vegetable oil exclusively for the past 3 years or so and haven't had a single problem in my work saws. The ONLY problem I have had is in a saw, 028 WB, that sat for a year and a half between uses, and I am not sure that the oil was the issue, as I found no clumps, but the pumps worm-drive got stripped. I replaced it and have not had another issue. The veggie oil is still cheap here, and the majority of cutting I do is on my little chunk of land that I eat and drink off of. It is worth the "risk" of using the veggie stuff to not spray petro-products all over my woods.

In addition I compost all of my sawdust from milling in our humanure toilet to use in our gardens and would prefer to not have the additives and dino oil included in my garden soil.

Good for you man, I bet you are happy!

I did the same thing back when I had a no utilities cabin, I modded my outhouse to be a capture system, added a back door, subfloor, drum, and used the sawdust from my wood bucking area. With a well not far away, I thought using a conventional outhouse was a scosh 'tarded, so I went to the composting. The tech is a lot better now, I've looked at the commercial units.... I just shoveled my..stuff.. in around some shrubs, though. I used around three hundred bales of hay a year on my garden for fertilizer and mulch, they got banked around the cabin in the late summer/early fall (whenever last haying occurred), then put on the garden once the ground warmed in the spring (Ruth Stout method, I am sure you probably know this) Just about the best no hassle wicked productive garden I ever had. Having to feed myself from it, I made dang sure it WAS productive. For storage I just used a north facing room in the cabin, opened the window, hung blankets and whatnot over that door to keep the heat from getting in there, and that room got cold, then froze everything, and that was it until the next year..po mans walk in freezer. Between fresh and that freezer, I lived quite well and only bought stuff I didn't produce, some butter, big sacks of rice and beans and oatmeal, etc. For lights I made jar candles and braided my wicks from used baling twine.

Glad to see the old back to the land renaissance is still going on in places! I am sorta half way today.Well..I gotz indoor plumbing, electricity and the internet!

Took me over two freeking years after I moved from that place before I had to stop catching myself going outside wherever I was to go do my business. That was weird, and it always made me laugh a little "hey, where ya going" "going outside, need to take a leak" "we live in an apartment in town and we have a bathroom".."oh ya..." HAHAHA

I did all my wood with a bowsaw then though, only chainsawing (10$ used Cox with the thumb trigger and left hand bar) was a few cord a year I sold. I split it up, my wood was biodrive, work wood was gas engine work tool. I used dino oil then, didn't even think about using veggie oil, if I had, I would have. Both bar oil and mix oil was just car oil. 30 weight for everything.

 

[miking]

I used it for a full summer, going through maybe three 4 gallon cases of the stuff but no more for me. If one of the saws sat for any real length of time the oil never exactly hardened but I could see where it was starting to get thicker and crusty. I am never one to clean saws incessantly but the oil residue really did harden on the case and under the cover and was hard to get off when I did want to clean it up. I think in at least two cases it also clogged up the bar oil lines and pump. Had I kept using it, it may have been okay but letting it sit is a no-no IMO. Give me TSC bar oil now anyday.

 

[WoodChuck'r]

I've used canola and mixed vegetable oil exclusively for the past 3 years or so and haven't had a single problem in my work saws. The ONLY problem I have had is in a saw, 028 WB, that sat for a year and a half between uses, and I am not sure that the oil was the issue, as I found no clumps, but the pumps worm-drive got stripped. I replaced it and have not had another issue. The veggie oil is still cheap here, and the majority of cutting I do is on my little chunk of land that I eat and drink off of. It is worth the "risk" of using the veggie stuff to not spray petro-products all over my woods.

In addition I compost all of my sawdust from milling in our humanure toilet to use in our gardens and would prefer to not have the additives and dino oil included in my garden soil.

WTF?! Are you frikkin' kidding me?!

What the hell is wrong with you?! What kind of sick person does that?! I'll bet you live in the woods that lives like some freaky radical who practices cannibalism!

Holy cow man you need to get a grip on reality and start pooping in a white porcelain bowl filled with water.....!!

 

[tdi-rick]

The additives being mixed into regular bar oil are not there by chance or accident.

The additives mixed into bar oil by the oil companies have been learned, tried and tested over decades of experience.

Backyard chainsaw users are not going to have a high level of expertise in the complexities of bar oil chemistry.

Actually pretty correct Jimmy.

Oil blenders just go to one of the large additive suppliers such as Lubrizol or RT Vanderbilt and buy an additive package off the shell that has the cost effective amounts of extreme pressure, anti wear and tackifier additives in it and just add and blend to their very basic Group I mineral oil, and they are really pretty basic oils.
We're only talking additive levels of 15-20% of the total volume of oil.

Vegetable oils like high oleic sunflower and canola are probably a better, more robust base to use but can oxidise badly over time and really need a helping hand to perform adequately.
If you use an additive like Lubrizol 7662 @ 18-20% and you will have a bar oil that outperforms the best mineral oils in terms of anti-wear with a biodegradability of >90%.
This additive is specifically designed for use as saw bar and chain oil in a vegie oil base. I'm sure Vanderbilt have something similar.

Bear in mind an average Joe off the street can't buy these additives, it's sold in 220 litre drums to real oil blenders

 

[GASoline71]

I know in some area's of cutting like a natural forest they have to run natural oils so it doesn't hurt the environment. I myself have used nothing but bar oil. It's not worth it in the end.

I have done some salmon stream restoration projects in the past, and used biodegradeable bar oil. I used Stihl Biodegradeable bar oil. Had to... it was required by the USFWS since we were cutting over streams and salmon habitat.. Which I had no problem using in my saws. Even though it is vegetable based... It's still bar oil, and has additives and tackifiers in it. If they would have said to use straight fryer oil... I woulda told them to pack sand, and walked away from the job.

Gary