357XP vs MS361 vs Dolmar

[gink595]

Both saws were running 18" bars with 3/8 chain. If I get around to it I'll run them again today, maybe take a vid.

I can believe it, at ericjeepers GTG Saturday I ran a stock 5100 against a muff modded Stihl 310 and it was nipping at it's heels. I used to own that 310 and compared it to the 361 and wasn't that far behind the 361. I won't say the 5100 is dead even but it's close enough to hang from my expereinces this weekend.

 

[SawTroll]

I would love to see a video then i'll believe it. And for the guy that ask previously if I ever ran a 5100 the answer is yes. We bought two of them, one with a 16" the other with 20" Both with 3/8. They were not reliable saws under daily use. I know that some guys have had good luck with theirs but many have not. As far as the saws go one came with.325 and once converted to 3/8 it was considerably slower, I also had a pair of 359's running 24" bars that pulled all day in any wood I put em in which is why I can't believe that the 5100 specs are true since the 20" was the limit on the 5100. I might buy the 18" bar thing in a cut or two but like I said in real world condition cutting the torque of a 359 or 357,361 is gonna change the outcome. Heck my 211 is faster in a quick cut than my 660 but not for long, once the wood density changes so does the cutting times.

Dolmas power specs on the 5100S always have been a bit "fishy" (inconsistent), and have changed over time - but they sure are in the ball-park.

The Euro PS5000, that use the same P&C + muffler, carb etc has always been listed at 2.8kW/3.8hp at 10000rpm - I have a hard time thinking that a coil and a crank that allow for more max rpm makes the engine put out more max power (at the same 10000rpm).

 

[Edge & Engine]

Sorry, but if so, that comparison tells us nothing at all.....:greenchainsaw:

The 5100 has less than an hour of run time on it.

 

[mowoodchopper]

Sorry, but if so, that comparison tells us nothing at all.....:greenchainsaw:

It tells me the 5100 is just as fast as the 359 with same bars!

 

[SawTroll]

The 5100 has less than an hour of run time on it.

Why didn't you say so in the first place?


Btw, the 359 was never a model I even remotely considered - obviously a bad power to weight ratio (at least stock)......

 

[Edge & Engine]

Why didn't you say so in the first place?


Btw, the 359 was never a model I even remotely considered - obviously a bad power to weight ratio (at least stock)......

I didn't think about it :spam:

 

[SawTroll]

I didn't think about it :spam:

No problem.





Some 5100S facts as I see them;

1) It will never be comparable to the MS361 regarding power, but very close in handling.

2) It will never compare to the NE346xp for handling, but is very close in power.

3) It still is a very good saw!

 

[joatmon]

No problem.





Some 5100S facts as I see them;

1) It will never be comparable to the MS361 regarding power, but very close in handling. And it's not a 290.

2) It will never compare to the NE346xp for handling, but is very close in power. And it's not a 290.

3) It still is a very good saw!] And it's not a 290.

Fixed.

 

[gink595]

Fixed.

ROFL

 

[weimedog]

These comparisons always begs a question...

This is a QUESTION....Not a statement!

1) 12 inch wood. Why would a big saw w/ 16inch bar running..say 10,000 RPM under load with a 8 tooth sprocket be any faster thru that theoretical stick of wood than a small saw w/ the same 16inch bar/chain combo running say...12,000 RPM under load in that wood with a 8 tooth sprocket. Asuming both can hold their rpm's and both can accept the same "pressure" applied by the operator.

2) 24inch wood

Same question, same numbers but UP the bar / Chain length to 20 inches on both saws. Assumption now is there isn't enough HP from either to allow a similar amount of pressure to be applied by the operator as he did on the 12 inch wood...SO in order to keep the chain speeds equal, the operator applys less pressure on the smaller cc / power saw than the larger one, resulting in smaller chips per tooth and less actual cutting speed on the 24 inch log.

Where am I going with this?

It's entirely possible a really high RPM saw like that little Dolmar 5100s can out cut a larger displacement/ lower RPM saw like the 60cc Stihl's & husky's if the wood is small enough or soft enough to where it has enough power to maintain chain speed with equal amounts of cutting pressure.


BUT can it do the same as the wood both is larger and harder to the point it runs out of HP/ Torque to match the larger saws? If it can..it has as much or more power & torque..if not the larger ones do and are worth the bucks if the operator spends more time in the larger wood. Point of a larger saw is to be able to maintain that chain speed as the load (wood size & bar/chain size) increases..that is why they exist! Otherwise we all would be buying Poulans!

OK..whats wrong with that analysis?


(My instinct says in the right conditions the PS-5100S will be much faster as it can maintain higher chain speed in a cut....but in the real world where you don't pick the situations, the larger saws are a better bet for picking a ONE saw solution as they are:

1) Less stressed as their piston speeds are less under load & all other related parts are running at a lower RPM. Ultimately the larger Stihl & Husqvarna saws are going to last longer in real world situations simply because they execute 10 percent less cycles to do the same work & generally are less stressed as the internal forces&heat due to rpm's & intensity of combustion are less.

2) The larger saws have more torque and can handle a larger range of wood sizes and hardness..therefore are more usefull for a "one" saw solution.)

 

[MCW]

These comparisons always begs a question...

This is a QUESTION....Not a statement!

1) 12 inch wood. Why would a big saw w/ 18inch bar running..say 10,000 RPM under load with a 8 tooth sprocket be any faster thru that theoretical stick of wood than a small saw w/ 18inch bar running say...12,000 RPM under load in that wood with a 8 tooth sprocket. Asuming both can hold their rpm's and both can accept the same "pressure" added buy the operator.

2) 24inch wood

Same question, same numbers. Assumption now is there isn't enough HP from either to allow a similar amount of pressure to be applied by the operator as he did on the 12 inch wood...SO in order to keep the chain speeds equal, the operator applys less pressure on the smaller cc / power saw than the larger one, resulting in smaller chips per tooth and less actual cutting speed on the 24 inch log.

Where am I going with this?

It's entirely possible a really high RPM saw like that little Dolmar 5100s can out cut a larger displacement/ lower RPM saw like the 60cc Stihl's & husky's if the wood is small enough or soft enough to where it has enough power to maintain chain speed with equal amounts of cutting pressure.


BUT can it do the same as the wood both is larger and harder to the point it runs out of HP/ Torque to match the larger saws? If it can..it has as much or more power & torque..if not the larger ones do and are worth the bucks if the operator spends more time in the larger wood. Point of a larger saw is to be able to maintain that chain speed as the load (wood size) increases..that is why they exist. Otherwise we all would be buying Poulans!

OK..whats wrong with that analysis?


(My instinct says in the right conditions the PS-5100S will be much faster as it can maintain higher chain speed in a cut....but in the real world where you don't pick the situations, the larger saws are a better bet as they are:

1) Less stressed as their piston speeds are less under load & all other related parts are running at a lower RPM. Ultimately the larger Stihl & Husqvarna saws are going to last longer in real world situations.
2) The larger saws have more torque and can handle a larger range of wood sizes and hardness..therefore are more usefull for a "one" saw solution.)

I agree with what you are saying. My 3120XP will basically hold the same chain speed with a 32" bar as it will with the 42", at least in softer wood like pine. If I was to stick add 10" to the bar on my 5100-S it would struggle to even move the chain
I don't believe that there is any reason why either the Husky 359 and/or Stihl 361 would outcut the 5100-S in smaller wood.
Of course the 359 and 361 are likely to have more torque but that generally comes into play with longer bars on larger wood.
Although its not an exact comparison it has been mentioned a few times on this site that the 7900 is similar in cutting speed to the 395XP/660 with bars around 32" or less but you try running a 42" bar on a 7900 - she no cut no good (I've tried it!)

 

[SawTroll]

Just one question!

These comparisons always begs a question...

This is a QUESTION....Not a statement!

1) 12 inch wood. Why would a big saw w/ 16inch bar running..say 10,000 RPM under load with a 8 tooth sprocket be any faster thru that theoretical stick of wood than a small saw w/ the same 16inch bar/chain combo running say...12,000 RPM under load in that wood with a 8 tooth sprocket. Asuming both can hold their rpm's and both can accept the same "pressure" applied by the operator. ....

Why should the smaller saw be able to keep the rpm higher than the larger one - that just won't happen if they use the same cutting attachment!

 

[weimedog]

Why should the smaller saw be able to keep the rpm higher than the larger one - that just won't happen if they use the same cutting attachment!

Damn, Troll I'm suprised! Based on the "tune" of the motor, port timing, carb, bore stroke etc. the point in the power band where a motor makes its best power will be different from saw to saw and from one motor design to another motor design. Part of my assumption is those little Dolmars are setup to make its power peak at a higher RPM than those other slightly more mild (Mild being a relative term here!) tuned saws. Those Dolmars push the boundaries more. Thats part of their attraction isn't it? Its also both a blessing and a curse for those little monsters.

SO...all things being equal with bar and chain along with sprocket (number of teeth), a saw with a power band say 500rpm's higher than another will have more chain speed as these little things are direct drive! If the wood along with chain/bar/clutch/ sprocket etc allows ALL the saws to stay at their peak power ..the one with chain speed advantages win.

( Also if the "power requirements" for bar/chain/wood/operator pressure are less than the power of the saw...then there is that top end "over rev" factor. All things being equal with sprocket sizes. bar & chain etc...RPM win again and the Little Dolmar has a 14,000 plus RPM top end...it wins in those light load situations..again chain speed)

 

[Typhoon]

I don't have experience with all of these saws.. however I have a few hours behind both the 357xp and the 359. IMHO, there is no comparison. For me personally, power to weight is what it's all about (see: formula one cars). Hence the reason porting a saw is so awesome... same weight, more power!! Anyways, not to get off on a tangent, the 357 (broke in) has a quite bit more power/speed than the 359 (both stock). So for me, the price difference in the two saws was worth it for the 357. I know guys are saying the 357's are pricey, but for me, 650.00 seems very fair for what I am getting out of the 357. So THERE!!!

 

[SawTroll]

:greenchainsaw:

Damn, Troll I'm suprised! Based on the "tune" of the motor, port timing, carb, bore stroke etc. the point in the power band where a motor makes its best power will be different from saw to saw and from one motor design to another motor design. Part of my assumption is those little Dolmars are setup to make its power peak at a higher RPM than those other slightly more mild (Mild being a relative term here!) tuned saws. Those Dolmars push the boundaries more. Thats part of their attraction isn't it? Its also both a blessing and a curse for those little monsters.

SO...all things being equal with bar and chain along with sprocket (number of teeth), a saw with a power band say 500rpm's higher than another will have more chain speed as these little things are direct drive! If the wood along with chain/bar/clutch/ sprocket etc allows ALL the saws to stay at their peak power ..the one with chain speed advantages win.

( Also if the "power requirements" for bar/chain/wood/operator pressure are less than the power of the saw...then there is that top end "over rev" factor. All things being equal with sprocket sizes. bar & chain etc...RPM win again and the Little Dolmar has a 14,000 plus RPM top end...it wins in those light load situations..again chain speed)

Peak rpm won't matter much in 12" wood, as the saws we are discussing all will be dragged down almost instantly from that, but most likely not down to max power rpm - the ability to keep the rpm up vs load (and considering gearing) is what counts regarding cutting speed + the chain of course. The 5100 (or 346xp) surely will not keep the rpm as high up as the 361, with the same gearing, as that is a matter of torque - much less 2k higher.

The small saws will be closer in small wood than in large, but it needs to be really tiny for them to win.

The MS361 is not a mild saw - I run a 3/8x8 most of the time on mine, but wouldn't even consider it on the 5100 or 346xp. The 361 outcuts both by a wide margin, as it should - and would win even in a 1" twig, as my 361 likes well over 14k WOT at no load, four-strokes happily at 14.5 at the moment......

4-500rpm difference for max power means very little - it is the total torque curve, way up to the top, that really counts in smaller wood.


You are right that it is the chain speed (+ chain and pressue on the saw) that count in the wood, and not the max hp - but you partly got it wrong from there.

 

[weimedog]

:greenchainsaw:

Peak rpm won't matter much in 12" wood, as the saws we are discussing all will be dragged down almost instantly from that, but most likely not down to max power rpm - the ability to keep the rpm up vs load (and considering gearing) is what counts regarding cutting speed + the chain of course. The 5100 (or 346xp) surely will not keep the rpm as high up as the 361, with the same gearing, as that is a matter of torque - much less 2k higher.

The small saws will be closer in small wood than in large, but it needs to be really tiny for them to win.

The MS361 is not a mild saw - I run a 3/8x8 most of the time on mine, but wouldn't even consider it on the 5100 or 346xp. The 361 outcuts both by a wide margin, as it should - and would win even in a 1" twig, as my 361 likes well over 14k WOT at no load, four-strokes happily at 14.5 at the moment......

4-500rpm difference for max power means very little - it is the total torque curve, way up to the top, that really counts in smaller wood.


You are right that it is the chain speed (+ chain and pressue on the saw) that count in the wood, and not the max hp - but you partly got it wrong from there.

Our basic logic differs...where? Only difference I see is your (from your experience) 361 turns the same RPM's as the 5100. I would have expected it to spin a bit less rpm's..but I don't own one, you do. I've seen those little 5100s scream..and I have a LOT of time on a 357XP.

 

[VINIFIREWOOD]

Thanks Guys.

Power to weight is important to me so I think I'm going to rule out Dolmar. I keep hearing they are great saws but my back is Fubar. It's as good a reason as any to narrow things down a bit. Plus I just have a hunch I'll be able to get Stihl or Husky parts easier where I am.

The details like the 361 being easier to change bars are the kinds of nuggets of info that really help. Any other tidbits of info like that would be greatly appreciated.

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out but in the dolmar the 6400 and the 7900 are the same weight about a pound lighter than the 361 and you could get the 7900, a 80cc saw, for less money than the 361.

 

[nmurph]

you have your #'s wrong. the 7900's are about a 1.3lbs heavier than the 361, and probably a little more expensive. but there is no comparison in the cut speed. 2 hp difference is tough to overcome.

 

[Zombiechopper]

I ordered a 357XP.

here is why:

1. My local (which is over an hour away) Stihl dealer is a John Deere combine dealership. They don't fix saws there at all. They don't even test run a new saw before selling it to you.

2. The Dolmars seem slightly lower quality than Husky and Stihl based on a lot of reading I have been doing all over the net. I'm sure they are fantastic saws for the money, but I am looking at maximum durability and longevity. I would rather pay a little more for it. The prices they go for are excellent but i just can't believe they are equally as good as a Husky or Stihl and be 200 hundred dollars cheaper. I could be wrong as hell on this but this is the general conclusion I've come to after reading everything I can find on the topic.

3. My back is f%cked. I severely tore a bunch of muscles five years ago and its never been the same. I need a small nimble saw that won't fatigue me. I need ergonomic, I need low vibration. I also like the better intake system on the Husky and the outboard clutch seems like a complete non issue after I watched a video of someone changing a bar and chain. It looked easy as pie.

So that's why I chose what I did. Thanks for all the help Boys.

 

[briantutt]

I ordered a 357XP.

here is why:

1. My local (which is over an hour away) Stihl dealer is a John Deere combine dealership. They don't fix saws there at all. They don't even test run a new saw before selling it to you.

2. The Dolmars seem slightly lower quality than Husky and Stihl based on a lot of reading I have been doing all over the net. I'm sure they are fantastic saws for the money, but I am looking at maximum durability and longevity. I would rather pay a little more for it. The prices they go for are excellent but i just can't believe they are equally as good as a Husky or Stihl and be 200 hundred dollars cheaper. I could be wrong as hell on this but this is the general conclusion I've come to after reading everything I can find on the topic.

3. My back is f%cked. I severely tore a bunch of muscles five years ago and its never been the same. I need a small nimble saw that won't fatigue me. I need ergonomic, I need low vibration. I also like the better intake system on the Husky and the outboard clutch seems like a complete non issue after I watched a video of someone changing a bar and chain. It looked easy as pie.

So that's why I chose what I did. Thanks for all the help Boys.

You won't regret it. My father has a 357XP that I just rebuilt the carb on for him. That things has such high RPM's it like driving a 750 Ninja in 2nd gear at 70 mph at 13000 rpms. My father swears with a 16" bar on it it will go throw wood twice as fast as with a 20" (he has both). I own a 362XP and that 357XP will smoke it easy. enjoy.