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With the great information age its like this every where. I rode and trained horses at a high level. There werent alot of trainers out there and credentials ment alot. Then if you could wisper to horses people would pay money for you to train there horse and the results would be a disaster. My local tree customers have been screwed by the magnetic sign guys and will not hire someone on price alone. If someone wants to low ball go ahead ill end up with more repeat business in the end.:cheers::chainsaw:
 
Take time to educate your customer

Educating homeowners is a key.

I go through a short tutorial with my clients when I quote. I point out the hazards, what steps that will be taken to avoid property damage, the level of skill required to do the job, and discuss the importance of tree specific insurance. I ALWAYS stress that landscape companies insurance will NOT cover tree incidents nor will some timber companies insurance that typically are felling trees out in the woods and not next to a residence.

When I leave I hope they make an informed decision, but unless I give them that information they may not be able to do so.
 
I think it is just as dangerous today as it ever was, relative to the amount of risk you are willing to take in your everyday life. Back when you started, life was more dangerous day to day than now and so the acceptable risk level was higher. You simply have the memory of the shift in perspective. Ask yourself, would you climb tomorrow using the methods you illustrated in post #30. Of course not, your not willing to take the same risk you took 40 years ago! Of course your (personal) perspective on climbing has evolved, but so has your (societal) perspective on risk.

So if 98% of people thought climbing was nuts in 1970, 98% of people probably think so today despite the increases in safety and education. The abundance of education simply means that the 2% willing to have a crack at it have a greater chance of doing something better for trees and the people who live with them. :cheers:
 
Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.

Good point. I come from a generation that did not hire anyone to do anything unless absolutely necessary. My dad and I were felling trees when I was a young boy. Granted my dad and I were not climbing but we could drop a tree wherever we wanted to. Tractor, rope, chainsaw, wedges and a eye for how one will fall.
 
You both are making my point....Eden, your 2 percenters have exploded into ....?....maybe 10 maybe 20 percenters that will give it a go. Once they search for info...they are more likely to stay there now than in the past.
 
Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.

If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.

We climbed on rope that grew from the ground, hemp. Sometimes this rope could decay if laying in an orchard and be rotten in the middle and nobody could see it.

Nobody used buckets ever...or cranes.

If I had multi doms and had to go down and then go back up, I would get a crotch up in the next part of the work and then just pull myself up the line, even if it was 20...30 feet holding the drt with no footlock but rather walking up the stem while walking my hands up the rope. Everyone I worked did this if no spikes were used. We are talking very high level tree companies I am not going to mention.

Very few people used lanyards and no one double tied in.

No chain breaks.

Open mufflers that could burn hemp line. (and your leg)

No ppe ever.

Chuck n ducks

Inexperienced untrained help often that would sometimes crush a climber rather than let the piece drop a little.

Work around high power lines all the time with no advice other than don't touch them.

No lowering devices but wraps around tree trunks which was very inconsistent and damaging to ropes.

I could go on but maybe you get the point. Things have come a long way and are improving with constantly evolving ANSI standards and new certifications requiring training.

Refer to post number 30...sorry

WOW, You sound like my dad (good thing) the one thing back in those days vet was that you had to physically be able to do the work, remember you were working with the best the industry had at that time!!!

Now a days........tell a trainee to climb something & its "awe the bucket can reach that", they dont want to do it manually!! this is why spider lifts have become a booming industry, due to being competitive & the fact most entering this trade dont wanna climb!!

Personally I still like climbing (not as often), but todays high tech, cool gadgets & youtube knowledge bring about different hazards!! I see more groundies with cell phones in their hands, saws cut alot faster than in the 60`s or 70`s, & as far as safety goes...........Id have to say it has gotten safer for those of us who have been in the trade & remember what it use to be like, but for the wannabes its far more dangerous.....read the TCIA stats page.

Lets face it....the general public for the most part thinks of us as tree cudders, so the guy layed off from the mill, car lot, etc... with little or no respect for our trade, but the need for $$$$ goes out, with out a clue & becomes a tree guy..........he learns respect real quick, these types usually get out as quick as they got in!

As for the Certs......I just lost a state bid to a company with no Certs & from outta state!! Certification, as much as I promote it & try to get people to recognize its usefullness.........Honestly it means nothing!! atleast right now!





LXT...............
 
Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.

Here in NZ there was the 40 hour week and SFA on TV. People had time to do things for themselves, and they had bored friends to help em. Alot more blue collars, guys with skills who shared skills with others.

Now people have more money, less time and skills and have more other crap in there lives. The service industry is growing more all the time.

There might be more of us "doing it" when it comes to treework but there are more people expecting others to do it for them.

I agree TV that more people are getting into business but that is probably down to both the federal and global economies than the availability of education or safety. You can no longer get work in a textile mill because workers in China are far cheaper to employ to make textiles. A huge number of unskilled and low skilled occupations have simply migrated across borders and oceans with the advent of economic globalization. So now you either work in technology or a service industry that can't be relocated.

As far as the 2% willing to try it is concerned, (sadly I have no factual data to quote), I doubt if I surveyed 100 people that I could get 10-20 of them to try going up a rope. I expect fewer than 10 would even have the fitness required to even try it.
 
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Treevet, yes this job is still as dangerous!! maybe more so!

Look back in the day; 4kv was the big stuff, today 23kv is common! yes there are more toys to make it easier....BUT, the need for manual talent will always be needed & this is were the new generation fails.

yes they can get up there, but then what???, you cannot learn this trade & be professional at it with out hands on training!!!! there is no tree climbing simulator (not yet) that allows for that "controlled enviroment safe learning" experience.

I remember being told by GF`s "monkeys can do your job" what a scare tactic, I have yet to see it & those coming into this trade have rules/laws telling them what & how.....safety now is used to get out of doing the hard stuff!!

I can remember walking out on limbs over the primary to were if I fell....I was dragging the primary back to the tree, not now!! thats a no, no!!

the rules have made this trade (in line clearance) not so much safer....but, less involved in order to get more done quicker!!! funny how when something nasty comes up they go for the guys trained under the "old system" why is that?

I think of getting out of this trade alot Vet, but to do what? the work force has been scattered in a way Ive not seen, people are doing anything for a buck!! hopefully it will get better!!!


LXT................
 
Hey.......it was a good run. Hope you socked it away!:cheers:

Like I said earlier it is not all doom and despair such as this but it could be.

I think you need to get every cert you can acquire....you need to learn everything you can learn about field work, tree health, tree care and tree anatomy, physiology, etc etc. You need to have every piece of equipment the big boys have or have access to them.

In other words you need to go out of your comfort zone to get to the top spots where those are the guys that are going to survive despite all these challenges. Maybe some day down the road it will get easier again.....but I doubt it.
 
Good discussion!

Nice to see some harmony here......

Even that old man of 61 (well, not yet, I reckon) is being nice.....

May he be wraptor'd up in wrapping paper on that big day....

:bday: in advance this time!!

I'll send him my extra AARP membership, and a bottle of Geritol.....
 
Treevet, yes this job is still as dangerous!! maybe more so!

Look back in the day; 4kv was the big stuff, today 23kv is common! yes there are more toys to make it easier....BUT, the need for manual talent will always be needed & this is were the new generation fails.

yes they can get up there, but then what???, you cannot learn this trade & be professional at it with out hands on training!!!! there is no tree climbing simulator (not yet) that allows for that "controlled enviroment safe learning" experience.

I remember being told by GF`s "monkeys can do your job" what a scare tactic, I have yet to see it & those coming into this trade have rules/laws telling them what & how.....safety now is used to get out of doing the hard stuff!!

I can remember walking out on limbs over the primary to were if I fell....I was dragging the primary back to the tree, not now!! thats a no, no!!

the rules have made this trade (in line clearance) not so much safer....but, less involved in order to get more done quicker!!! funny how when something nasty comes up they go for the guys trained under the "old system" why is that?

I think of getting out of this trade alot Vet, but to do what? the work force has been scattered in a way Ive not seen, people are doing anything for a buck!! hopefully it will get better!!!


LXT................

Not even remotely suggesting you get out of the trade LXT ....just the opposite. It is time to step up our game and win. The winner takes the biggest piece of meat.

Like mentioned earlier ....yes the best guys are still doing the stuff over the primaries but if you get pigeon holed into doing that and only extreme stuff from day to day.....well....
 
Semi-Random Thoughts:

TimberMcPherson
Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.

That was one of two thoughts I had when I read the first post.

First:
In the country, folks were much more do-it-yourself. We still have just as many DIY'ers...it's just we've been overrun by urban refuges who, unlike my grandparents, moved from the cities (or college campuses) but still expect that someone else will do things for them. My grandparents / great-grandparents generation moved from urban areas to farms that made them and their kids jack of all trades types.

25 years ago a lawn service was reserved for only a few commercial properties around...and even then most of the commercial folks owned their own riding mower and had one of their employees mow the lawn. Residential lawns were the domain of the neighbor's kid. I honestly can only remember 1 person who had a true business of lawn care back in 1987 in my town. Today there has to be a dozen folks based in my town alone.

Second:
Trees got bigger.

More trees in the suburbs, lots of suburbs founded post World War II...until the 1970s a lot of them probably didn't have many trees big enough to need a tree service.

Similarly in the cities, lots of growth in the 1870s -- 1930s, by the 1970s on you had century old trees that were now declining and needed more services then the same community fifty years before.

EdenT
So now you either work in technology or a service industry that can't be relocated.

And those are precious few.

Healthcare is probably the only well paying service that can't be relocated.

Everything else is either under global pressure, or under illegal immigration pressure, both helping suppress wages for decades now.

That has a cascade effect.

Farming is so capital intensive now, you don't see under-employed men going back to the land.

You do see them in things like tree services. Need less start up cash and you get cash flow right away instead of after harvest. But a lot of them don't have a good business head or good understanding what they're doing. So they wing it, often underinsured and avoiding other fees and business taxes and not putting away money for the business' future or their own retirement -- costs that established firms face, and under cut the pricing not for reasons of efficiency or anything positive. They just work cheap.
 
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Good discussion!

Nice to see some harmony here......

Even that old man of 61 (well, not yet, I reckon) is being nice.....

May he be wraptor'd up in wrapping paper on that big day....

:bday: in advance this time!!

I'll send him my extra AARP membership, and a bottle of Geritol.....

Geritol gladly accepted Roger, put some in my coffee every morning. Are we both really 61. Hell, I beat a 30 year old in a 2 hour 5 game racquetball match last night and I am not even sore now. Treemen rule!

Hey, when I hit 60 I went in to the local restaurant and was excited to be able to order from the senior citizen menu at a big discount.

Well the food comes and it about half of the usual order. I guess they figure you have forgotten what they used to give you lol.
 
What I am saying is it is actually safer and easier to actually DO it (not just read about it) with the gear, equipment, and all the instruction you can get from people like you and me on forums so......

this is why there are so many more people doing it and filling up the yellow pages and showing up to bid against you etc etc....and....

there are gonna be a whole lot more now that joe schmoe just lost his engineering job.

Not really looking for an answer here....just stating a dilemma. Are we, from day to day, training our own competition....and is this the dangerous job that should bring premium bucks....anymore?


Premium bucks? Maybe back before I got started and then it was most likely to working 12 hours a day ( and a few hours at night too) pushing for it.

You are talking about a lot of different things and it seems to come back to competition with others. That is an easy one to explain; there are a whole lot of people in this world and we all do something or at least try.
But to answer the broad question about obsolution you are going to have to define a few things. Like who is " we" ?

Also you mentioned something about training the competition. Yeah that is a sticky one. You have to chalk that one up to " vicious circle" and that's all it is.

As far as the question of just any old body can read up and start to practice: God Bless America... I suppose.
 
Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.

If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.

We climbed on rope that grew from the ground, hemp. Sometimes this rope could decay if laying in an orchard and be rotten in the middle and nobody could see it.

Nobody used buckets ever...or cranes.

If I had multi doms and had to go down and then go back up, I would get a crotch up in the next part of the work and then just pull myself up the line, even if it was 20...30 feet holding the drt with no footlock but rather walking up the stem while walking my hands up the rope. Everyone I worked did this if no spikes were used. We are talking very high level tree companies I am not going to mention.

Very few people used lanyards and no one double tied in.

No chain breaks.

Open mufflers that could burn hemp line. (and your leg)

No ppe ever.

Chuck n ducks

Inexperienced untrained help often that would sometimes crush a climber rather than let the piece drop a little.

Work around high power lines all the time with no advice other than don't touch them.

No lowering devices but wraps around tree trunks which was very inconsistent and damaging to ropes.

I could go on but maybe you get the point. Things have come a long way and are improving with constantly evolving ANSI standards and new certifications requiring training.
.
Refer to post number 30...sorry

Yes, its changed I would not do tree work under any of those circumstances... well not anymore!
 
Here is an example. The green climber has mastered getting up in and around in big trees from forums and a little time in the saddle. He has figured out knots and hitches in the Sherrill Catalogue. He just cannot figure how to take big wood out of a tree over a roof that is too far away to toss and no crotch to swing it off the roof.

He brings this up on a forum and in return he is told to get the gm on the roof and hook up the big wood like this with this equipment....
attachment.php

What do you have going on here? Looks interesting.
 
Random MDS thoughts....

I think most of us know what it feels like to reluctantly give away some of our hard earned secrets in the course of simply trying to get some work done. It is a necessary evil I suppose.

As far as the internet thing goes.... well, I was proficient at my job long before I came here, but I have learned some things here as well - so I would be a hypocrite to say much about a lawn guy gleaning info and trying to make the crossover. Not that I'm really above that. :)
 
I think most of us know what it feels like to reluctantly give away some of our hard earned secrets in the course of simply trying to get some work done. It is a necessary evil I suppose.

As far as the internet thing goes.... well, I was proficient at my job long before I came here, but I have learned some things here as well - so I would be a hypocrite to say much about a lawn guy gleaning info and trying to make the crossover. Not that I'm really above that. :)


Man I started trees while I was cutting grass. I was 11, I did the lady behind me ( she was French) and cut down a dead dogwood. I would suppose every 11 year old boy would know a dogwood. I also did my English teacher's privets and took the dead out of her dogwood. I have to say I never really found it to confusing where to make the cuts but my tools sucked.
Between these two ladies and some others in the neighborhood I was kept amazed at what they were willing to get me to do.
 

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