My twisted mind has me reading into this too much.... I hope
making ourselves obsolete
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My twisted mind has me reading into this too much.... I hope
oldugly
ArboristSite Operative
Wow
A lot of good points in this thread. Many I have been considering myself, and a few I have never thought of. I remember the hemp rope, and the heavy climbing saws, and I remember when only "real men" would even attempt our profession. Now when I see the women climbers...(God bless every one of them) and the "arm chair arborist" I wonder where it all went... right, or wrong not withstanding...just where it went.
I personally think the advent of much of our equipment, (spider lifts, buckets, etc.) has undermined much of the needed skill level to do our jobs...therefore opening up opportunities for the less skilled and many times less competent new people. It took real guts to do what we did then, maybe a little less now.
I know of a couple of tree companies in my area that don't climb at all, sometimes I sub to them on a job or two, but I have my reservations about that anymore. It seems I build their reputation, and business, while my own suffers.
Lawn companies now offer tree phc. and pruning, and it does not set well with me at all, but the reality is the information is available to them to do the job, and the licensing and certification is easily attainable. Differentiating myself from them to my customers is increasingly difficult and casting myself in a bitter, and "backstabbing" persona. Landscapers are now tree trimmers, and tree trimmers are now arborists, and lawn mowers are both. Educating the public seems to be an insurmountable task with no future.
I had always thought that the future moves would be to more specialization, but in this economy, and the relative low cost of equipment...it is moved to more the other direction. The old-style tree trimmer will never be completely obsolete..but I can see a time coming when he is or will be only an employee of a lawn service, or the sub-division of a large conglomerate. I have been fortunate enough to work with some of the great old-timers, and I guess now I would be considered an old-timer myself. The end of a great era..
A lot of good points in this thread. Many I have been considering myself, and a few I have never thought of. I remember the hemp rope, and the heavy climbing saws, and I remember when only "real men" would even attempt our profession. Now when I see the women climbers...(God bless every one of them) and the "arm chair arborist" I wonder where it all went... right, or wrong not withstanding...just where it went.
I personally think the advent of much of our equipment, (spider lifts, buckets, etc.) has undermined much of the needed skill level to do our jobs...therefore opening up opportunities for the less skilled and many times less competent new people. It took real guts to do what we did then, maybe a little less now.
I know of a couple of tree companies in my area that don't climb at all, sometimes I sub to them on a job or two, but I have my reservations about that anymore. It seems I build their reputation, and business, while my own suffers.
Lawn companies now offer tree phc. and pruning, and it does not set well with me at all, but the reality is the information is available to them to do the job, and the licensing and certification is easily attainable. Differentiating myself from them to my customers is increasingly difficult and casting myself in a bitter, and "backstabbing" persona. Landscapers are now tree trimmers, and tree trimmers are now arborists, and lawn mowers are both. Educating the public seems to be an insurmountable task with no future.
I had always thought that the future moves would be to more specialization, but in this economy, and the relative low cost of equipment...it is moved to more the other direction. The old-style tree trimmer will never be completely obsolete..but I can see a time coming when he is or will be only an employee of a lawn service, or the sub-division of a large conglomerate. I have been fortunate enough to work with some of the great old-timers, and I guess now I would be considered an old-timer myself. The end of a great era..
treemandan
Tree Freak
Sorry to leave your hopes dashed across the rocks and swept out to sea.
As with everything it all was educational.
treemandan
Tree Freak
And there will always be someone else who knows too.
Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
Having been around this industry for less than a decade my opinion may hold less weight for you old timers but hearing you talk about the way things were to what I know they are now left me with a thought.
You remember your first big climb? You remember that point were things started getting a little tricky and dangerous? I do and my first thought was, "What the #### do I think I'm doing here? I'm 60 feet off the ground with a rope holding me to a tree, gunning a chainsaw and watching a 500 lb top slowly start to come over and the rope attached to it is also attached to the tree that I'm attached to, and I'm about to die." It was the scariest experience of my life.
Add any trinket you want, read as many books as you can, watch some GB DVD's, it don't matter, this job is dangerous and for me, that point was driven home on that first big tree. I don't think there's many men who have gone through that experience that will ever do it again. We have, and we do. The education material is much more easily accessed these days and might inspire more people to "try" this occupation, but I don't think the percentage of people that continue in this line of work after their big moment will ever change.
You remember your first big climb? You remember that point were things started getting a little tricky and dangerous? I do and my first thought was, "What the #### do I think I'm doing here? I'm 60 feet off the ground with a rope holding me to a tree, gunning a chainsaw and watching a 500 lb top slowly start to come over and the rope attached to it is also attached to the tree that I'm attached to, and I'm about to die." It was the scariest experience of my life.
Add any trinket you want, read as many books as you can, watch some GB DVD's, it don't matter, this job is dangerous and for me, that point was driven home on that first big tree. I don't think there's many men who have gone through that experience that will ever do it again. We have, and we do. The education material is much more easily accessed these days and might inspire more people to "try" this occupation, but I don't think the percentage of people that continue in this line of work after their big moment will ever change.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm still waiting for them to come out with a hovercraft to do this stuff... Then I might become obsolete... 
I'm starting to think I should buy some lawnmowers and do the tree thing on the side.
The bad part about all this certification crap is that its almost becoming a cloak for hacks to hide behind (in certain cases) .... anybody with some book smarts can pass a test, doesnt make them an arborist.
I'm not a "CA" (yet), but I know I'm better at pruning trees than most (if not all) of the people I've worked with over the years. But as it stands I cant prune a branch in my state.
The bad part about all this certification crap is that its almost becoming a cloak for hacks to hide behind (in certain cases) .... anybody with some book smarts can pass a test, doesnt make them an arborist.
I'm not a "CA" (yet), but I know I'm better at pruning trees than most (if not all) of the people I've worked with over the years. But as it stands I cant prune a branch in my state.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well...from the female point of view...(hi ugly...!)
The availability of lighterweight equipment and pulleys and portawraps and stuff certainly has enabled me to be in the biz, even a 200t is lighter than an 020t than I started with...Buckets are nice but I climb most of my stuff.
I remember watching tree surgeons over here in the 70's and 80's and from what I can remember (because I was soo young) there is no way I could do this work with the equipment of those days, so yes 'vet...I think you are right, new equipment has broadened the entry to this profession.
However the crunch comes when your feet leave the ground...can you handle it? The big rig, bit of a breeze...Did I do my calculations right...#### I'm a long way up...if it's not a bucket job that will keep the wannabe's out of it.
Maybe its heading towards more of a specialization process...climber specialist, not just a bucket babe...???
I have just had three sub jobs from a landscape co. for takedowns in tight spots that they couldn't do...had to be climbed and lowered, no way they have the staff or equipment to do it...nice.
You guys will always have the upper hand for big nasty knarly stuff, and most of the big logging...sheer size and strength, I don't even want to go NEAR that.
But I got the lock for the treetop tip toe job!
The availability of lighterweight equipment and pulleys and portawraps and stuff certainly has enabled me to be in the biz, even a 200t is lighter than an 020t than I started with...Buckets are nice but I climb most of my stuff.
I remember watching tree surgeons over here in the 70's and 80's and from what I can remember (because I was soo young
) there is no way I could do this work with the equipment of those days, so yes 'vet...I think you are right, new equipment has broadened the entry to this profession.However the crunch comes when your feet leave the ground...can you handle it? The big rig, bit of a breeze...Did I do my calculations right...#### I'm a long way up...if it's not a bucket job that will keep the wannabe's out of it.
Maybe its heading towards more of a specialization process...climber specialist, not just a bucket babe...???
I have just had three sub jobs from a landscape co. for takedowns in tight spots that they couldn't do...had to be climbed and lowered, no way they have the staff or equipment to do it...nice.
You guys will always have the upper hand for big nasty knarly stuff, and most of the big logging...sheer size and strength, I don't even want to go NEAR that.
But I got the lock for the treetop tip toe job!
oldugly
ArboristSite Operative
Bermie...God bless all the female climbers that have entered into the field in recent years/decades. I've watched some of the women climbers in the work climb competitions...some of them are far better strategically, and mechanically than I will ever be, or ever was. All I meant to say was when I was starting out, the saws were heavier, the gear was all leather, (and much heavier), and the job was not gender appropriate for women. As a father of four daughters, I would be very proud if any of them pursued this profession.
On the second note...when you talk of climbing for ..or subcontracting to.. landscapers...you are hitting the point of what I was trying to say...we are being worked into a subdivision of a larger professional group. Instead of treecare professionals being in our own market we are competing with landscapers, lawn mowers, and gardeners. We are a dying and depreciating breed that has become a sub to a larger group. The easy jobs, and small trims are now easily performed by lawncare crews...and since I don't know bluegrass from crabgrass...well the future doesn't look like it gets any easier.
The points made about equipment, information, and certification availability hit home when there is no work, and the mortgage is due, and young trimmers who have never climbed a tree ... have work...and their families are fed and healthy.
On the second note...when you talk of climbing for ..or subcontracting to.. landscapers...you are hitting the point of what I was trying to say...we are being worked into a subdivision of a larger professional group. Instead of treecare professionals being in our own market we are competing with landscapers, lawn mowers, and gardeners. We are a dying and depreciating breed that has become a sub to a larger group. The easy jobs, and small trims are now easily performed by lawncare crews...and since I don't know bluegrass from crabgrass...well the future doesn't look like it gets any easier.
The points made about equipment, information, and certification availability hit home when there is no work, and the mortgage is due, and young trimmers who have never climbed a tree ... have work...and their families are fed and healthy.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
So many of these discussions gravitate to the Certs. Top climbers like Bermie and others will still have niche work but can that sustain a company that must be big enough to pay the bills?
Just received my "pledge" from the ISA via email. Have been expecting it for a year now. Haven't had the time to review it but I will HAVE to sign it as cities around here are gravitating to excluding non Certed arbs. It has happened and likely will increase in occurrence. This may take the Cert to a new improved level.....but it may take it to new low depths. Stay tuned.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
I totally agree, times were different, you are right!
Over here we are beginning to draw up regulations for the horticultural industry, and have separated TREES out as a specialty profession, it will be seperate from the general 'Landscape Gardener' which encompasses most activities of installation and maintenance of landscapes. We stopped at pruning of hedges and shrubs for landscapers, anything to do with trees will be a tree surgeon.
Too many landscape maintenance companies are hacking the trees, a friend of mine lost a bid on some takedowns, the landscapers got it, he drove by the other day and laughed when he saw the masons on site repairing the roof...his $2000 bid looks cheap now in light of the roof repairs! (our roofs are stone slate cemented together on top of a timber frame...drop a tree on it and cracks...and its the primary water catch for every house!)
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tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
I haven't researched it in awhile but it used to be that landscapers where only insured up to 7 feet off the ground. That's what used to separate us from them back in the day. Not to say that landscapers can't insure themselves to do trees or the HO would even bother to check but they used to be relegated to shrubs and ornamental trees.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
That's what I understand the US standard was...we have NONE!!!
Insurance does not differentiate over here and you need show no certificates, just walk in and say I need insurance for abc...and they'll sell it to you, no problem.
We discussed the 7/8' height and decided that someone who doesn't know what they are doing can still mess up a little tree...especially if it is destined to become a bigger one in the overall landscape...
Juicemang
ArboristSite Member
I learned how to climb almost exclusively off this site. The only other info I had was the Tree Climbers Companion. I have never worked for another tree service. I have only seen other people climb a few times in person. I had limited saw experience from working at a country club before I started on my own. In 3 years I went from not knowing a thing about trees to actually being a skilled and safe climber. My first climb wasn't the safest thing I have ever done. But I quickly picked up on some of the things you guys preach here like safety and quality of work. I gradually became more comfortable in the tree and have become pretty good on spikes and without. I have done some pretty technical rigging but I usually take smaller pieces then I have too. I would probably be more comfortable rigging larger pieces if i was working on the ground for a few years. Its weird, I have taught a couple of people how to use my port-a-wrap, but I have never even used it myself haha. So in short this site can train your competition. In a few years I went from nothing to having my own saws, climbing and rigging gear, f350, dump trailer, and a dingo with branch manager. I'm also Insured as of 02/01/10 yay!!! am I not a hack anymore?? I have my first crane removal scheduled for this Saturday. I'm ####ting my pants but nobody knows that. Its going to be crazy fun... and whats life without a challenge??
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good luck, make sure you have a qualified op.
Talk about ###ting your pants....2 years of working without insurance...
Do you know anything about trees yet, or do you just do removals?
