PPE confrontation!

[DJ4wd]

Ill start this thread out by saying that I approve of and use PPE, although I don't have every piece I should have ,I am working on it. Like most of the member of this site I grew up using saws with: no brakes, no earplugs or ear muffs, safety glasses, hardhats or chaps. Was I ever cut? Sure a few small times (no hospital trips needed) Dad and grandpa asked us a few "what if" questions and told us a few gross stories and showed us the right way or their version of it and that was it. I do understand the need for it and I do somewhat appreciate those on here that take an effort to suggest a new PPE out of concern. Whats got a bee in my britches is that there can't be a picture post on here without 3 people jumping on them about PPE. We all know about it and whether or not they use it is their decision. Of course if you spend more than my typical 3 hrs a week in the woods then this situation is different likes those of you who are Arborist.
Our family heats with wood not because I feel the overwhelming desire to spend a lot of time splitting although I do love it. Its because the economic situation at our home demands it. Until someone has a way of selling discounted PPE or has lots of it laying around they will need to understand that when we have the means to get chaps or whatever it is I need, I will.
Thank you for the concern

 

[MCW]

I agree. If somebody cuts there leg off without chaps then instead of 50 people chiming in wishing them all the best in their recovery you're more likey to get 49 people saying I told you so.
If somebody hurts themselves and PPE would have prevented it then they have nobody to blame but themselves.
However you are correct in saying that heaps of people here jump on the bandwagon and treat experienced, older saw users as school children. It's quite condescending in fact and not necessary. I may have even been guilty of this on occasions

I've always worn hearing and eye protection but it was only when I started doing felling jobs on corporate farms and was required to wear chaps for insurance and workcover reasons that I started wearing them - even though I'd had a pair of unused Pro Husky chaps for about 6 months. Now I feel naked without them

 

[StihlyinEly]

The only thing I'm going to say about PPE in this thread is that you don't have to be a working logger, arborist, or mass firewood cutter spending a career with chainsaws to benefit from that gear. I know the odds go up on dangerous accidents the more hours we spend with the saw in our hands. But I'd suggest the weekend warrior is at least as likely to zap himself in the leg as folks who are longtime chainsaw experts. Lifelong chainsaw use can breed carelessness. Very occasional chainsaw use can spell inexperience. PPE can save you in either case.

That all being said, I cut for many years in my 20s with no PPE. I was one of those tough guys (in my own head, at least) who couldn't be bothered. Now, as I approach 50 and am using saws more regularly than I have for the last 20 years, I use the stuff. All the time.

And, contrary to what the OP said, not everyone on this site is familiar with PPE and its benefits. Lots of new folks coming on all the time, and experience levels vary widely.

I have always been a live and let live sort of guy. In the end, I say don't jump on someone who's not using the stuff. People need to make their own decisions. If those decisions lead to an accident, tough dookie. We have free will and are allowed to exercise it.

 

[blsnelling]

I have always been a live and let live sort of guy. In the end, I say don't jump on someone who's not using the stuff. People need to make their own decisions. If those decisions lead to an accident, tough dookie. We have free will and are allowed to exercise it.

+1. But on the other hand, I didn't even know chaps existed until coming to this sight. I now use them most of the time. When I don't, I know the risks I'm taking, and that's my problem.

 

[Guido Salvage]

I am what you would call a recreational cutter, though I also own a sawmill that is currently sitting idle. Back in the summer of 1988 I was cutting some timber at my mother's property. It was the end of the day and I had one more log to section and the saw got pinched. Grabbed another saw and started it and while stepping over another log put a 4" gash across my knee. Pure carelessness on my part.

Fortunately I was within walking (limping) distance of the house and suffered little blood loss. Took my first ambulance ride and thirty some stitches later I was back together. I immediately ordered a set of chaps from Bailey's that I am still using. In the grand scale of things they were cheap, less than half the cost of the bottle of pain pills I required.

I suspect that some people think they have been doing it so long that nothing can happen to them. In my most recent job I was the risk manager for a Fortune 500 company and I can tell you that accidents can and will happen. Any steps you can take to mitigate the hazards of the job will only help you in the long run.

 

[BobL]

I don't mind folks politely reminding other folks that PPE is a good idea. While there some experts on this forum that can juggle chainsaws with their left gonad without getting a scratch, there are a hell of a lot more newbies that look at at this site and I don't think we should be promoting a "do what you like and she'll be right"

But like you say keeping things in perspective helps. I did one of those risk analysis thingies for insurance purposes and by far the most dangerous thing I do when using CSs is driving to where I use em.

Despite this I still use full PPE. Because I am already legally deaf and want to keep what little hearing I have left the only PPE I use the "best of" are Muffs (Peltor 10HBs) I have Labonville full chaps and a basic poly carbonate visor. I watched my Dad go deaf in just 9 years of CS uses - it was pretty sad really, he couldn't hold a regular job down after that.

BTW as someone else said on this site, even the best PPE is way cheaper than one trip to hospital following a CS accident.

 

[howellhandmade]

You think PPE omission is bad, try posting a picture of a stump.

Really, though, I don't see the trouble with reminders for PPE. If someone is a big enough boy to make the decision to cut without it, he's a big enough boy to ignore whatever comments come along when he posts a photo on an internet forum. The worst thing that could happen from an "always wear PPE" post is, well, what just happened. The worst thing that could happen from not saying anything is that someone who really didn't know any better misses an opportunity to be educated and cuts himself.

Jack

 

[BobL]

You think PPE omission is bad, try posting a picture of a stump.

Yeah - stumps are real good for comments from the peanut gallery.

But I'm still wiping the egg off my face for posting a pic of a saw with the chain on backwards!

 

[mikefunaro]

I agree with you, we shouldn't be so quick to jump on and berate people for their choices.

However, on the economics argument...

My co-pay for an ER visit buys me a set of chaps and a helmet...

Anything more than a routine ER visit, when everything is said and done, would probably buy me some chaps, helmet, new boots, maybe even a new saw...

I will say though that I hope saw companies and chap manufacturers do not take the same margins that they do on PPE as on other goods; while they are entitled to profit they should do their best to make the items reasonably priced. Presumably the price of chaps is somewhat high because the kevlar is somewhat expensive...

The helmets too though...sometimes you can find them for like $25 to $30 for one of the cheaper grippo ones. Another thing you can do in the short term is just to wear a normal construction hardhat (you can get those for like $15 or so), use foam plugs (40 cents) and a pair of safety goggles.

 

[dingeryote]

Relax DJ,

Lifes too short to be PPE perfect, and ya can't wash your cheechnulls wearing chaps in the shower...

Some folks might be a little harsh and take it to extremes when nagging good naturedly, agreed.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[rxe]

I'm generally all in favour, but I have a big problem with heat. Chaps are heavy and hot - I've gone as far as getting a pair of lightweight climbing trousers which are great, but on a day like yesterday (28C), I'm more at risk from dehydration induced carelessness than I am from sticking a saw in my leg. For firewood cutting I've got a big saw buck, everything goes in it, the saw has a long bar and I know where the tip is (about 6" out the other side of the buck). I see the risk as low, but I am well aware that bad things can happen.

I'm also a very firm believer in risk compensation. We naturally take more risks when we believe ourselves to be protected. I remember seeing a video (here) of a guy positioning the bar of a running 660 with his bare hands - perfectly safe as the brake was on, but would he ever do something like that if he had no brake? I would no more touch the bar of a running 075 (no brake) than fly to the moon.

 

[DJ4wd]

Relax DJ,

Lifes too short to be PPE perfect, and ya can't wash your cheechnulls wearing chaps in the shower...

Some folks might be a little harsh and take it to extremes when nagging good naturedly, agreed.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

Thanks


I like to reiterate that I believe in PPE and am grateful for the occasional reminder,but Im talking about the 3&4 times per thread nagging. As a member with over 200 post and those with over 2000 you would think I've heard about it and know what it is . As stated before I have more now than ever and intend on getting more. I agree that the new guys need to be told about it and even reminded of it in continued posting of saws in action and no PPE. But the Older guys know and do not need berated over it.
I knew this would ruffle feathers but I felt strongly enough about it to get it out there.

 

[alderman]

I've gone through three stages in my cutting career.

1. It won't happen to me.

2. It may happen to me.

3. If I do this long enough it will happen to me.

Most of the time when I chime in about ppe it is with a newby who may or may not know that it is available.

After 25 years of answering ambulance calls I've come to the conclusion that man is capabable of hurting himself with just about any devise invented, women not so much.

 

[CWME]

I didn't even think about PPE until joining this site. For those that mentioned it politely in the posts I read I apreciate the education.

To the OP, I definately agree with your point that the nagging in an experienced OP's post is irritating. Especially the one where your boy was bucking a log with hearing and eye protection on. The comment about getting him some chaps was a bit much and degraded your enthusiasm for sharing your good times. You were clearly supervising him and chaps would not have made him safer for what he was doing.

PPE is a personal choice. Once I found out about chaps I bought some. The arborist that helped me clear my lot mentioned that I should have a helmet. I got one of those. I still need boots. It's a work in progress. I made the choice to wear PPE once I found out there was such a thing. The reason(s) I can't aford to be out of work, If it can go wrong it will go wrong for me at some point, if I can prevent an injury by putting on the gear that is what I will do.

 

[parrisw]

Ya, some people just like to pick on others. I never say anything, just because I'm guilty of it as well.

I've gotten a number of comments on youtube of one of my videos for a serious lack of PPE, I just laugh at them though.

 

[woodbooga]

I never wore chaps or nothing before joining this group. Just a firewooder my self, doing about 12 cords a year for myself and a few other folks. I'm also known as the guy who owns the most saws in the neighborhood, so I help neighors out after storms and stuff.

Gotta admit, sometimes I roll my eyes at the "where's your PPE" comments inside of here. But then I'll take a step back and think of the folks like myself that never wore them before, and maybe - just maybe - they invested in a pair of chaps that came in handy once. At any given time, if you look at the bottom of the page, along all the members whose names we know, there's usually some guests, too. Some of whom probly have less experience and can use a little safety advice.

Have to admit, I'm beyond lax when it comes to eye protection. So there's still a lot of room for improvement on my end.

 

[Wolfcsm]

First off, I would say that you can go right past those reminders - just like deleting emails you don't want.

Chaps are a nobrainer. They protect very well, your legs. They do not protect from stupid, but might mitigate the result. The operator must always know his limitations and work within them. Yes they are hot to work in. You can drink more water and sports drinks to replace the fluids lost. They are expensive, but when you pay that first co pay to be put back together, you will probably pay more there than for the chaps.

Hearing protection. Why would a person want to ruin their hearing by their actions? Why would a person choose to hear ringing in their ears every minute of every day? Why would a person choose to loose the top 1/3 to 1/2 of their hearing frequency range? After almost 40 years of being around weapons firing, Tanks, military trucks, chain saws, tractors, etc, I have pretty good hearing for 55 years old - only because of hearing protection. I really like being to hear quiet sounds at high frequency.

Eye protection. Why would a person choose to loose the sight in one or both of their eyes - by their own inaction. Modern eye protection works! Just ask the soldiers blown up by IEDs that still have their eyesight - because of the eye protection they are required to wear.

Helmets / hard hats. Just have to take a blow from a branch falling in one to know why they are important when felling.

It IS a personal choice. I understand that. But why would a person choose to be hurt, if there was a way to prevent or mitigate it?

Hal

 

[gwiley]

I know that it can be irritating and I confess to being one of the PPE police, my rationale is:

- folks don't have to read or "obey"
- awareness is a huge part of safe work, reminders are helpful even to long time veterans who become complacent about safety
- i'll be happy to risk irritating someone if it saves someone's life or limb
- i benefit from the reminders myself
- i appreciate it when folks i am working with point out my own unsafe techniques and i hope they never stop

 

[twoden]

I say make the information available to members and guests of AS. I Like my head, shoulders, knees, and toes too much to not wear PPE no matter the conditions, but if someone does't care if one minute they can walk and the next they're missing a knee cap... thats not for me to say. I think the information, and importance of using PPE should be available for those who would be interested... I don't know how you can buy a chainsaw and not know about PPE, you trip over PPE on your way to check out, even in the box stores.

 

[parrisw]

First off, I would say that you can go right past those reminders - just like deleting emails you don't want.

Chaps are a nobrainer. They protect very well, your legs. They do not protect from stupid, but might mitigate the result. The operator must always know his limitations and work within them. Yes they are hot to work in. You can drink more water and sports drinks to replace the fluids lost. They are expensive, but when you pay that first co pay to be put back together, you will probably pay more there than for the chaps.

Hearing protection. Why would a person want to ruin their hearing by their actions? Why would a person choose to hear ringing in their ears every minute of every day? Why would a person choose to loose the top 1/3 to 1/2 of their hearing frequency range? After almost 40 years of being around weapons firing, Tanks, military trucks, chain saws, tractors, etc, I have pretty good hearing for 55 years old - only because of hearing protection. I really like being to hear quiet sounds at high frequency.

Eye protection. Why would a person choose to loose the sight in one or both of their eyes - by their own inaction. Modern eye protection works! Just ask the soldiers blown up by IEDs that still have their eyesight - because of the eye protection they are required to wear.

Helmets / hard hats. Just have to take a blow from a branch falling in one to know why they are important when felling.

It IS a personal choice. I understand that. But why would a person choose to be hurt, if there was a way to prevent or mitigate it?

Hal

Very well said!

When cutting I always wear my hard hat with muffs and face screen, especially when climbing with a saw since its always way closer to you then just bucking. I seem to never wear my chaps though, I just find them very hard to get used to, I suppose I should give them another go.