What is Husqvarna thinking!

[weimedog]

I've been building YouTube video's on aftermarket parts, some here have seen them some not, (might post links, but not the focus of this thread) and a thought has been nagging at me as I've been doing this saw CAD thing the last 10 years....WHAT is Husqvarna thinking!!!! This started back in 2009 when I build a 272 with a Bailey's Aftermarket top end, nice looking part; but wasn't a match of a stocker. Had built a tweaked 268 open port that ate its lunch. BUT the price was right at around $100 bucks and the guy who owned the saw was happy as he was back to cutting with a price point he could afford. He didn't have the money to go to a typical dealer for repair much less buy a new saw! AND he heated with wood (a growing trend as energy/taxation prices make folks struggle...a salient point to this discussion but another topic in of itself)

Now there are piles of 365/372 Cylinder / Piston replacement options, (digging through some in the YouTube video's, and NOT just Cylinder's, Pull Start's, Ignitions Modules...everything) many top end rebuild options for under $50 directly from the Pacific rim. Before you use the old "you get what you pay for" logic, some of those option's are really the same as relabeled "name" aftermarket offerings that have come on the market, just eBay allows you to get them closer to their source taking a middle reseller or two out of the price structure...so still What is Husky thinking!

Some and maybe most of those Pacific rim Cylinder/Piston offerings are reverse engineered from OEM...and not quite there in terms of matching port timing and internal dimensions. Obviously most are good enough to run well, just not quite as well as a stocker. And some are approaching stock casting quality even though the internals are different....a trend. 10 years from now, even five years from now that gap will certainly be less. (What is Husky thinking?)

Of course there has been AM offerings that approach OEM such as Meteor products for a while. And the sales channels for those have included eBay but mostly through dealer support distribution channels. The pacific rim $50 dollar options thru eBay have just destroyed the price structure as now customers have an easy way to get these AM part's, many the same as their dealers; for the same price the saw dealers are buying them for. ..... You all get this. So why am I questioning Husqvarna's spare parts marketing strategy??

Because for me to buy an OEM cylinder for something like a 372xp, I have to pay close to $300 dollars!!! Even through eBay they go for the high $200's. Meteor top end's are better at the $150 range. I essentially built on a set of OEM cases a Pacific Rim copy saw for $200 complete with top end, all the plastic, ignition & even pull starts! That's why the Pacific rim offerings are going to flood the market and make it tough on dealers over time. Then by inference Husqvarna

Before you take the "you get what you pay for" attitude, yea; the saw I built isn't a match of stock. But it cuts pretty well. Certainly better than any $250 dollar new option out there. Of course the next question is ... for how long! Going to document that over time.

I don't use Pacific Rim AM Cylinder's on the saws I fix for real, usually use Meteor or clean up OEM where possible. I now give those I fix saws for an AM option simply because they usually have been on eBay and put those prices in my face; then sell into the better OEM or Meteor parts when possible. OR tell them to get the parts and I will twist the wrenches. BUT there is a place for those AM Pacific rim parts. And that is because of the cost differential between them and OEM. (What are they thinking)

And that's why I ask....WHAT is Husqvarna Thinking!!!! The market place for replacement parts is rapidly changing. The distribution channels are way different than when the current spare parts market strategy was designed. I have to say a $150 dollar OEM option would cut the AM Pacific Rim offerings sold in HALF. Most would spend the extra $75-$100 go get back to stock, And until the AM offerings match OEM....that would stem the tide of these knock off but not quite up to stock quality parts.

Get with the program Husqvarna! Before they tear a gapping hole in your dealers repair business. Pricing differently would help dealers, and even do it your self customer types to stick with your supply channels / dealers and ultimately the brand as well. AND every one know when the saw bites it, its ALWAYS the brand name sucks. Even if under the covers is all AM built by a hack (I'm a hack!) like my demo Pacific Rim saw. Brand loyalty is worth something. They need to flex with market trends!

BTW, not that it matter's; I still think for a pro, OEM is the best way to go. Not even close! AND these saw's I built for the video's are going to be used on the farm until they die, they are not now or ever will be sold in this configuration. My angst is a result of being a young manufacturing engineer tasked with justifying, selecting, installing, and programming CNC machine tools back when the home grown machine tool industry (G&L, Cincinnati Milacron, Burgmaster etc) was just gutted by Pacific Rim offerings such as Makino, Okuma, Niigata, Matsuura etc, and it didn't have to go that way. This feels similar to me.

 

[HuskStihl]

I don't understand. Husky, Stihl and the others probably have very little influence in what cylinders AM companies produce or their prices. OEM Stihl is the same deal but more so.

 

[Wagnerwerks]

This isn't a new story. I've been in the auto parts business since I was 14 and before that I was fixing up go karts and anything with a motor. Aftermarket parts prices are dictated by many variables, but are mostly priced at the highest point a consumer will pay. Who's going to spend 2gs on a part for a 1500 dollar car? So that part price goes down. Factory parts are insane, but usually fit and work. Even aftermarket parts that improve on factory are still hard to sell to a customer because they cost more than the cheep stuff. Welcome to throw-a-way USA. Husky can't sell all the parts to build a saw for less than it costs on the shelf. To many guys like us would already have a parts list made up and ready to go.

 

[Chris-PA]

Because the saws and all their parts don't actually cost anywhere near what the OEMs sell them for if you look at the cost of the parts. You are paying for all of the organizational overhead associated with running a company like Husqvarna or Stihl - all the marketing and advertizing, the debts they took on to buy other companies or develop products, etc. They can't sell that part cheaper and make any money. We're talking about a little cast cylinder for a 2-stroke, hardly high tech - it doesn't cost much to make and anyone can do it. It would be pointless for Husky to engage in a race to the bottom with sellers that have no overhead.

This is a trap for companies like Husky and Stihl. You can see what happens in markets like AU/NZ when they lose the lower end of the market to the Chinese saws and must support the overhead on what is left.

 

[zogger]

When you said you buiilt one for 200 with some case halves, do you mean everything, new crank, bearings, oiler, yada yada?

 

[weimedog]

Chris-PA I understand all that. Still no excuse. The second half of my career was watching companies like Computervision, Prime, Autotrol, DEC,etc self destruct as they assumed what you described was how it had to be. Mean while Auto Desk cleaned the market place because instead of assuming they had to continue and tighten their belts to weather the storm, they recognized the opportunities and built their business plan around the distributed processing advantages of the desk top PC's....had the capabilities of their top heavy competitors for a fraction of the price. For those who know the story there is a path in there for all these companies to learn from. (Past my pay grade anymore)

 

[Chris-PA]

Chris-PA I understand all that. Still no excuse. The second half of my career was watching companies like Computervision, Prime, Autotrol, DEC,etc self destruct as they assumed what you described was how it had to be. Mean while Auto Desk cleaned the market place because instead of assuming they had to continue and tighten their belts to weather the storm, they recognized the opportunities and built their business plan around the distributed processing advantages of the desk top PC's....had the capabilities of their top heavy competitors for a fraction of the price.

Yup, happens all the time. Organizations of all kinds (companies, countries, societies, whatever) build complexity over time. They just continue to do what has worked in the past. It is rare for an organization to willingly shed complexity, so they must carry more and more over time until they cannot support it. Then they fail.

Husky really is trapped by some of it though, specifically the debt. It must have cost a fortune to develop some of the stuff like AT, and buying companies to get market share, brand names and technology isn't cheap. Now they must service that debt. If it weren't for the emissions laws and Poulan they'd be toast, as the Chinese saws would be taking their cash flow.

 

[weimedog]

When you said you buiilt one for 200 with some case halves, do you mean everything, new crank, bearings, oiler, yada yada?

Pretty much, used the crank, and some other parts. The concept was originally around simply testing parts. But the execution of the plan was enlightening. Learned a lot about what's on the market. The two things I started with as goals, was to show a typical hack with mechanical skills can fix their saw, and to begin digging thru and reviewing aftermarket options for tactical repairs. Wasn't thinking about building entire AM saws. Now....lol

 

[weimedog]

Yup, happens all the time. Organizations of all kinds (companies, countries, societies, whatever) build complexity over time. They just continue to do what has worked in the past. It is rare for an organization to willingly shed complexity, so they must carry more and more over time until they cannot support it. Then they fail.

Husky really is trapped by some of it though, specifically the debt. It must have cost a fortune to develop some of the stuff like AT, and buying companies to get market share, brand names and technology isn't cheap. Now they must service that debt. If it weren't for the emissions laws and Poulan they'd be toast, as the Chinese saws would be taking their cash flow.

Preachin' to the choir. If you have an interest in technology & history. Find the story of Intergraph, Huntsville Alabama

 

[ZeroJunk]

The vast majority of saws will never be rebuilt. It may seem like a lot to us because it is a hobby or business but I would bet the majority of users don't even know a saw can be rebuilt. I would be surprised if any of the big utilities or their contractors do anything but chunk them in the dumpster.

 

[sachsmo]

It is called saturation, man. Like putting $15,000 worth of replacement windows in a house that is sitting next to a nuclear plant. Sentimental value is the only thing that "Trumps," it.

Or Trump himself.

Just looking at that prick made me throw up a little!


Wonder how the big man would hold up WORKING fer a living?

 

[Franny K]

Say you take that 372 to the husquvarna dealer to get a new cylinder/piston and whatever else it needs what is the labor/parts ratio going to be? Out of line with the skidder, chipper, bucket truck etc?

Kind of amusing putting a big bore kit on instead of getting the next size up and asking what was the manufacturer thinking.

It is magnesium case doesn't the threads in magnesium and perhaps other places kind of give out in due time?

I bought a little piece that goes in a husqvarna snow blower, the husky dealer sold me a briggs and stratton one which started to deteoriate, went the the stihl dealer that has some dark red similar devices and he sold me an oregon one.

 

[weimedog]

The vast majority of saws will never be rebuilt. It may seem like a lot to us because it is a hobby or business but I would bet the majority of users don't even know a saw can be rebuilt. I would be surprised if any of the big utilities or their contractors do anything but chunk them in the dumpster.

This is ... true! But as the cost of saws go up, the need for firewood grows as folks turn back to ways to survive the crushing energy costs & cold winters, and the understanding of what's available for repair parts grows, I think that more and more saws will be rebuilt or at least repaired. The guy in the previous post totally missed the point. My original premise was to start reviewing AM parts for those looking to replace a ..say broken pull start assembly, or mashed tank/handle. Tactical stuff. Not total rebuilds. And then to the "Farmer" types (Not full time logger types!) like me show that more in depth repairs are possible with minimal specialized tools. No one would do that type of work on a $200 dollar saw, or even a $400 dollar saw! But when the price point get into the $800 to $1000 dollar range....there is voltage to repair & rebuild to get more life vs. simply throw out and replace. As a small farmer, I understand this and this cold as hell winter is hammering home that message that you have to make do with what you have after the energy costs, taxes, equipment repair (tractors with sub zero related issues), and all that. (AND the zero temps mean more inside repair work as can't do much outside!) So now looking to repair an expensive machine that is a staple of existence, if possible; has to be considered! After doing this ... I was myself a bit surprised on what's out there available to average Joe for parts ... hence the follow on discussion about how much does it cost to piece together a saw that would cost 2 times maybe three times as much to buy a comparable performance machine new.

 

[zogger]

Had a thought I commented on before, but I'll repeat it and follow up with the "what are they thinking"? meme, which I agree with. New mid size pro saw, one grand, riding mower at a box store, can get one for one grand that is good enough.

Saws are WAY over priced, IMO. You got 5 times the moving parts, 20 times the weight of stuff (whatever) a lot more stuff to engineer and assemble, etc with a rider. It's small engine jazz, engines, outside sheetmetal or plastic, etc.

 

[Franny K]

Had a thought I commented on before, but I'll repeat it and follow up with the "what are they thinking"? meme, which I agree with. New mid size pro saw, one grand, riding mower at a box store, can get one for one grand that is good enough.

Saws are WAY over priced, IMO. You got 5 times the moving parts, 20 times the weight of stuff (whatever) a lot more stuff to engineer and assemble, etc with a rider. It's small engine jazz, engines, outside sheetmetal or plastic, etc.

Go to a John Deere dealer and find out how much a swivel hitch costs for a pull type rotary cutter (brush hog) or mower conditioner. Then go over to the Stihl chainsaw section. The dealership I have in mind also has Echo and a 60cc timberwolf thing marked at $450 that doesn't count as mid sized pro or semi pro.

The same riding mower or rather similar can be obtained from a husky chainsaw place in oragne but I think a 43 inch cut one is $1500. Not sure what you get for $1000 but I have been told some of the single cylinder ones don't have an Iron liner.

 

[Jeff Lary]

Nice video skills, you did a good job.

 

[spike60]

Walter, you're my best friend in the saw world, but I disagree with almost everything you wrote. LOL This winter's really gotta end soon so you can get out of the house.

I'm collaborating with you on some of these experiments; and I'm having fun doing it. But I don't think that these parts and their prices are some kind of time bomb sneaking up on Husky and Stihl. The OEM and AM parts exist in 2 essentially different worlds. First, I sell 372XPW kits, (OEM), for just $200 and I sell plenty. Most guys who buy them want nothing to do with AM kits. Most dealers won't mess with AM either. (except dealers like that crook near you who sells AM parts at OEM prices).

The kits we are messing with have a cost advantage that can only be realized by someone who can rebuild a saw himself. They are certainly popular here in the enthusiast community, but out in the everyday world, they are not much of a factor. ZeroJunk posted that most saws will never be rebuilt and he is dead on. And the only saws that generally get rebuilt are the pro models like 372's. Anything under $500 is almost never rebuilt. And the amount of people who can, or will even attempt to rebuild their own saw is much, much smaller even than that. It's very rare that a dealer sells a cylinder kit over the counter, OEM or AM. On sites like this, guys have the skill set to do these projects, and it's actually fun to create a runner as cheaply as you can. You and I have blast building these scrambled egg saws. And the vids will encourage others to take a shot at it. But still, it's a very, very small number of people that will mess with this stuff. (And often a fiasco when they do. Mostly because they don't correct what went arong the first time) Pro guys really don't have the time. And after running saws all day, the last thing they want to do is work on them at night. The guy I'm building those 288's for does in fact have the knowledge to do them himself, but he works in the woods and I work on the saw bench, so he gave them to me.

In a shop environment, the difference in cost to rebuild a saw with AM parts, say a Forester jug, vs the OEM jug is only $100 in my shop. Might be $150 in some others. Add an hour's labor, the typical small parts, tax and you might end up at say $200 vs $300 for the rebuilding a 372. Nearly everyone will do the extra $100 for the OEM part. And that is just for a top end job. Starting from the cases up adds too much parts and labor. Those parts being out there are certainly not hurting my parts and repair biz. And I or any dealer can offer them as an option if we choose. Another point is that anyone considering rebuilding a 372 has to own one in the first place. So, we can presume that he saw the value in a saw like that and was willing to spend the money to own it. That type of customer is less likely to think in terms of cheap chinese stuff.

But what about that guy who's short on cash and being hammered by winter and everything else yet still needs to put up next year's firewood? Well, most of these guys are going to buy a Rancher or Farm Boss. And that's exactly what's happening as they are Husky and Stihl's best sellers. (You always speak favorably of the 455;s yourself. ) No, those saws won't sling the chips like a 372 regardless of what top end is on it. But they will reliably put up next years wood, and many years after that. They're new; they come with a warranty, and they have fewer "what ifs" than a saw rebuilt with Chinese parts.

 

[hamish]

Walter, you're my best friend in the saw world, but I disagree with almost everything you wrote. LOL This winter's really gotta end soon so you can get out of the house.

I'm collaborating with you on some of these experiments; and I'm having fun doing it. But I don't think that these parts and their prices are some kind of time bomb sneaking up on Husky and Stihl. The OEM and AM parts exist in 2 essentially different worlds. First, I sell 372XPW kits, (OEM), for just $200 and I sell plenty. Most guys who buy them want nothing to do with AM kits. Most dealers won't mess with AM either. (except dealers like that crook near you who sells AM parts at OEM prices).

The kits we are messing with have a cost advantage that can only be realized by someone who can rebuild a saw himself. They are certainly popular here in the enthusiast community, but out in the everyday world, they are not much of a factor. ZeroJunk posted that most saws will never be rebuilt and he is dead on. And the only saws that generally get rebuilt are the pro models like 372's. Anything under $500 is almost never rebuilt. And the amount of people who can, or will even attempt to rebuild their own saw is much, much smaller even than that. It's very rare that a dealer sells a cylinder kit over the counter, OEM or AM. On sites like this, guys have the skill set to do these projects, and it's actually fun to create a runner as cheaply as you can. You and I have blast building these scrambled egg saws. And the vids will encourage others to take a shot at it. But still, it's a very, very small number of people that will mess with this stuff. (And often a fiasco when they do. Mostly because they don't correct what went arong the first time) Pro guys really don't have the time. And after running saws all day, the last thing they want to do is work on them at night. The guy I'm building those 288's for does in fact have the knowledge to do them himself, but he works in the woods and I work on the saw bench, so he gave them to me.

In a shop environment, the difference in cost to rebuild a saw with AM parts, say a Forester jug, vs the OEM jug is only $100 in my shop. Might be $150 in some others. Add an hour's labor, the typical small parts, tax and you might end up at say $200 vs $300 for the rebuilding a 372. Nearly everyone will do the extra $100 for the OEM part. And that is just for a top end job. Starting from the cases up adds too much parts and labor. Those parts being out there are certainly not hurting my parts and repair biz. And I or any dealer can offer them as an option if we choose. Another point is that anyone considering rebuilding a 372 has to own one in the first place. So, we can presume that he saw the value in a saw like that and was willing to spend the money to own it. That type of customer is less likely to think in terms of cheap chinese stuff.

But what about that guy who's short on cash and being hammered by winter and everything else yet still needs to put up next year's firewood? Well, most of these guys are going to buy a Rancher or Farm Boss. And that's exactly what's happening as they are Husky and Stihl's best sellers. (You always speak favorably of the 455;s yourself. ) No, those saws won't sling the chips like a 372 regardless of what top end is on it. But they will reliably put up next years wood, and many years after that. They're new; they come with a warranty, and they have fewer "what ifs" than a saw rebuilt with Chinese parts.

If I spoke American, I would have said the same.

I replace very few coils every year, but sell a bunch of them over the counter, to them guys that can change a coil, and still have a non running saw.

 

[tree monkey]

well said spike

 

[AKDoug]

Spike, you saved me a lot of typing. You are dead on.