Glad I burn wood & not pellets

[muddstopper]

Totally agree with you. I'd rather spend 21 hours cutting firewood for "free" then working for the man myself. You totally made my point valid

I have in no way made any of your points valid. I posted what i did to support the economics of burning wood, whether split wood or pellets, versus the economics of burning other fuels, ie propane, natural gas, oil. I only mention how foolish an ideal it was to justify buying wood versus cutting yourself only if you make over $15 per hr. And then you tried to justify your position because you have some sort of financial degree, which I am seriously beginning to doubt. The 21 hrs, would only be valid if someone was earning similar to what I earn on my regular job, but the fact is if someone is only making $15 perhr, the actual overtime they would have to invest would nearly be double the amount I would need to work. A dollar saved is a dollar earned, how much one makes is not relevant. Actual cost of the wood, whether bought or if you gather yourself, is only relevant if it will save you or cost you money. Will burning wood, in my case, save me more money that it cost, the answer is absolutely. Can I gather the wood cheaper than I can buy it absolutely. Can I save money on energy cost if I burn wood, again, absolutely. Your arguments are not validated by my statements in anyway form or fashion, In fact, I think we are in total disagreement. I will not be baited anymore with this foolish nonsense.

 

[jimbojango]

I have in no way made any of your points valid. I posted what i did to support the economics of burning wood, whether split wood or pellets, versus the economics of burning other fuels, ie propane, natural gas, oil. I only mention how foolish an ideal it was to justify buying wood versus cutting yourself only if you make over $15 per hr. And then you tried to justify your position because you have some sort of financial degree, which I am seriously beginning to doubt. The 21 hrs, would only be valid if someone was earning similar to what I earn on my regular job, but the fact is if someone is only making $15 perhr, the actual overtime they would have to invest would nearly be double the amount I would need to work. A dollar saved is a dollar earned, how much one makes is not relevant. Actual cost of the wood, whether bought or if you gather yourself, is only relevant if it will save you or cost you money. Will burning wood, in my case, save me more money that it cost, the answer is absolutely. Can I gather the wood cheaper than I can buy it absolutely. Can I save money on energy cost if I burn wood, again, absolutely. Your arguments are not validated by my statements in anyway form or fashion, In fact, I think we are in total disagreement. I will not be baited anymore with this foolish nonsense.

Prove to me with some dollar figures how you can gather it cheaper than you can buy it.

 

[muddstopper]

I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.

 

[jimbojango]

I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.

quoted from page 3 this morning #48

I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, drive home, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and stacking. Taking chains to be sharpened or doing it yourself adds another half our, spend $10 on gas to split the wood, spend a couple bucks on gas for your saws.
5 1/2 hours of labor. $82.50
$12 in direct fuel costs
Owning said truck and trailer and possible a tractor, and the splitter and the chainsaws... $50 a cord minimum especially for the weekend warriors.
looks like 144.50 per cord of wood in costs to me, i can buy 1 for $150 where i live (or less) and they deliver and stack it. So for $5.50 a cord i can buy my wood instead of cutting it without including any vehicle fuel or my time of driving.

You also have to spend time hauling the wood inside and then hauling ashes out. Its not a zero sum game. Its dirty, the bark gets everywhere inside and out, you have a pile of crap around your splitter, your truck gets beat up in the bed, you ruin tires ect. ect. Its just not a free game.

Like i said before, you CHOOSE to burn wood (as do i) but it has a real cost, and an indirect cost. The fact i can get my own fuel is cool and awesome and makes me feel good about it and it gets some tree's out of my pastures and makes room for more grass for my cows but it still costs me.

But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership

 

[flotek]

Doesn't your nat gas furnace have a fan in it too? That also requires power, even when the power goes out? Then your family is going to freeze too...

SR

Fire log sets don't use any electricity and have a thermostat - just sayin

 

[jimbojango]

I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.

And in the exact same post, i prove why pellets can work out without doing ANY of the work required to go gather the crap, or propane ect. $144.50 a cord excluding the driving (because you have to drive to get the pellets as well) isn't free by a long shot.

 

[jwilly]

Part of the pellet shortage is caused by the amount that we export to Europe, pellets are a big part of the forest products export market. They actually use them to fuel power plants over there. In 2011 over 2 million tons were exported.

 

[jimbojango]

Part of the pellet shortage is caused by the amount that we export to Europe, pellets are a big part of the forest products export market. They actually use them to fuel power plants over there.

Kind of like our propane shortage? lol

 

[c5rulz]

i'm not sure if there is a shortage here or not as i don't burn them. I have noticed if you "prebuy" them in the fall they give a pretty deep discount on them so they don't have to handle them and the frieght of them all winter. I know the manager at one store and he just hates dealing with them in general.

Well that is kind one dimensional thinking. Freight is freight. Discounts are given on pre ordered so a business can PLAN anticipated demand and have adequate supply and procure discounts due to guaranteed volume in the future.

 

[c5rulz]

if they have the money up front in our area they buy a corn/pellet stove and usually burn pellets. But if push comes to shove they can shove corn straight out of the combine through them. Not real pretty when corn was $6 but now that its 4 its not so bad. The only complaint I've heard about corn is that it burns "about twice as much" to put the same heat out, no clue if that's true or if it was high moisture or anything further

That is simply not true.

Corn must be at the right moisture and be clean of dust and "bees wings" in order for the auger of a corn stove to work reliably.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Clean+corn+is+vital+in+corn+stoves.-a0183981954

 

[c5rulz]

You've fell off the turnip wagon. i'm going to ATTEMPT to make this as not personal as possible...

Why on earth would I burn wood by choice? it takes time, effort, a strong back and weak mind, a chainsaw, a splitter, a truck and that's just to get it. THEN you have to haul the crap into the house after its split and put it in a stove every couple hours all the time even at 4 am and then carry ashes out. The work involved in firewood isn't worth it if you make more than $15 an hour. You can LIKE cutting wood (most of the people on this site do) but going to work and working overtime pays for "alternative heat" (not wood) 9 times out of 10. The reason people burn wood is either a. they have lots of free time and are poor so they put the effort out, or b. they ENJOY cutting wood and not "paying the man" even though they are paying themselves to be "the man"

Why jump on someone for burning pellets? or LP, or natural gas or coal or whatever. You're source isn't better than any one elses if they aren't freezing to death. If you want to jump on someone about how they choose to spend their hard earned money maybe you should take a long look at yourself in the mirror. I'm all about economics (have a finance degree) and i'm here to tell you what i already said above. If i had a job (instead of CHOOSING to be a farmer and staying "poor") i wouldn't burn a stick of wood, i'd even give my stove to someone else and only heat with propane or electric. I choose to burn wood, i like cutting wood, i like having chainsaws that cost more collectively than my wife's car.

BTW you remark about profit digs me pretty deep as well. Do you grow a garden and your own meat? if not I'm sticking it to you every time you go to the store. beating "the man" in 1 aspect of your life isn't such a big deal, beat him in all aspects and we'll talk.

Do you ever stop yammering?

 

[c5rulz]

If you make $30 an hour and can't figure out that you're losing money you have a real problem with math. go work 3 hours of overtime instead of cutting wood and buy it, you'll SAVE money.

The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime

Working for hourly wages really cuts an individuals ability to earn a lot of money.

 

[c5rulz]

But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership

Please post pics of your significant other and I am not talking about your hand.opcorn:

 

[muddstopper]

quoted from page 3 this morning #48

I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, drive home, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and stacking. Taking chains to be sharpened or doing it yourself adds another half our, spend $10 on gas to split the wood, spend a couple bucks on gas for your saws.
5 1/2 hours of labor. $82.50
$12 in direct fuel costs
Owning said truck and trailer and possible a tractor, and the splitter and the chainsaws... $50 a cord minimum especially for the weekend warriors.
looks like 144.50 per cord of wood in costs to me, i can buy 1 for $150 where i live (or less) and they deliver and stack it. So for $5.50 a cord i can buy my wood instead of cutting it without including any vehicle fuel or my time of driving.

You also have to spend time hauling the wood inside and then hauling ashes out. Its not a zero sum game. Its dirty, the bark gets everywhere inside and out, you have a pile of crap around your splitter, your truck gets beat up in the bed, you ruin tires ect. ect. Its just not a free game.

Like i said before, you CHOOSE to burn wood (as do i) but it has a real cost, and an indirect cost. The fact i can get my own fuel is cool and awesome and makes me feel good about it and it gets some tree's out of my pastures and makes room for more grass for my cows but it still costs me.

But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership

Do you even know how to figure out your cost?

Read your post. Do away with the second half of it about hauling in and out, you will do that whether you cut your own or buy it. Pellets are cleaner, but you also have to haul them in and ashes out, still a wash.
Now lets look at your other numbers
$50 cord minimum for the truck and chainsaws, and splitter. Really?. The cost of these items should be amortized over the life of the equipment. How much I use my truck for getting wood, couple of hours per year. I gave $5000 for my used truck and it will last me probably 10 years of getting wood and hauling off the garbage, In fact i have already owned it since 99 so I am close to 14 years plus what ever additional time i get out of it. Thats $500 a year for my truck. A normal work year has 2816 hrs of normal 8hr days. Thats the time I might drive my truck, but sometimes it sits and other times I drive outside the normal 8 hrs. Anyways, That means I use my truck for obtaining wood less than 1% of the time each year. $500x.01=$5. So much for your $50 minimum, it going to take a lot of other cost to reach your numbers. Dont think tags and insurance will get you there, but you should already know what you pay for those items. Chainsaws and splitters last for years as well and therefore should be amortized the same as your truck and any other equipment you use.

You figure your labor is worth $82.50 for 5.5 hrs of work. Or $15 prhr. Well if your going to work over time to make that 82.50 you will need to work right at 4hrs. A portion of that is taxable so it will take you closer to your actual 5 1/2 hrs to make the money you can save tax free if you do the work yourself. By the way, taxes, are a real direct cost.

Now, your own admission of it costing you $5.50 more per cord to buy the wood instead of cutting it yourself. You figured money for your time and cost to cut yourself, , so you where paid to cut the wood,, yet you say it cost you an extra $5.50 a cord to buy and claim a savings. Really? I am already tired of this. Your Math doesnt even work when you do it, and I dont have the patience to deal with you further.

Listen, everybodies cost is going to be different, and I will agree, everyone needs to be able to figure their own cost before they can make the decision as to whether to buy wood or cut their own, or maybe even just pay their electric bill. But you sir are living in a world of fantasy, you cant figure your own cost, and chastise others decisions to cut wood instead of buying it. This thread has gotten way off topic and I allowed you to drag me in a foolish debate you are not prepared for.
My last post on this subject

 

[jimbojango]

Please post pics of your significant other and I am not talking about your hand.opcorn:

 

[Cpjlube]

My furnace burns hotter with corn than pellets. Price is what drove me to pellets. Not heat.
I just use it to heat the shop so it's not my primary heat for the house. But it's pretty convenient. Less time tending it. And I can go to work for 12 hours and not come home to a cold building. With a wood stove I would be starting over.
In order to reliably get over 12 hours you get into the OWB market.

 

[stihly dan]

I have/had 40 cords css. At around $300 dry cord HERE, that's $12,000. Had the truck, had the saw, had the maul. Diesel for truck $1,000 should be more than enough. $500 gas/oil mix, chains again more than enough. $10,500 profit over 2 1/2 yrs of a bad economy. The time spent there was no way to work, as there was no work over 40, not always 40. So I made around $4k a year tax free on my time that I would have been in front of the boob tube or computer. Now things are getting busy to work over time and no heating bills for a higher income to expense ratio for the next few years. I could not do this with any other form of heat.

 

[jimbojango]

Do you even know how to figure out your cost?

Read your post. Do away with the second half of it about hauling in and out, you will do that whether you cut your own or buy it. Pellets are cleaner, but you also have to haul them in and ashes out, still a wash.
Now lets look at your other numbers
$50 cord minimum for the truck and chainsaws, and splitter. Really?. The cost of these items should be amortized over the life of the equipment. How much I use my truck for getting wood, couple of hours per year. I gave $5000 for my used truck and it will last me probably 10 years of getting wood and hauling off the garbage, In fact i have already owned it since 99 so I am close to 14 years plus what ever additional time i get out of it. Thats $500 a year for my truck. A normal work year has 2816 hrs of normal 8hr days. Thats the time I might drive my truck, but sometimes it sits and other times I drive outside the normal 8 hrs. Anyways, That means I use my truck for obtaining wood less than 1% of the time each year. $500x.01=$5. So much for your $50 minimum, it going to take a lot of other cost to reach your numbers. Dont think tags and insurance will get you there, but you should already know what you pay for those items. Chainsaws and splitters last for years as well and therefore should be amortized the same as your truck and any other equipment you use.

You figure your labor is worth $82.50 for 5.5 hrs of work. Or $15 prhr. Well if your going to work over time to make that 82.50 you will need to work right at 4hrs. A portion of that is taxable so it will take you closer to your actual 5 1/2 hrs to make the money you can save tax free if you do the work yourself. By the way, taxes, are a real direct cost.

Now, your own admission of it costing you $5.50 more per cord to buy the wood instead of cutting it yourself. You figured money for your time and cost to cut yourself, , so you where paid to cut the wood,, yet you say it cost you an extra $5.50 a cord to buy and claim a savings. Really? I am already tired of this. Your Math doesnt even work when you do it, and I dont have the patience to deal with you further.

Listen, everybodies cost is going to be different, and I will agree, everyone needs to be able to figure their own cost before they can make the decision as to whether to buy wood or cut their own, or maybe even just pay their electric bill. But you sir are living in a world of fantasy, you cant figure your own cost, and chastise others decisions to cut wood instead of buying it. This thread has gotten way off topic and I allowed you to drag me in a foolish debate you are not prepared for.
My last post on this subject

wanna bet? *gets out more bait*

If you make $15 an hour you don't pay taxes unless you're single and have a bad accountant that can't write off your chainsaw fetish because you don't even sell a cord or two a year to write all of it off. You pay medicare and social security tax and thats it. Your good friend uncle sam refunds you at the end of the year for all your taxes you've paid in if that's all your household income is. so lets say more like 7.5% (unless you're self employed like myself and then i DO pay self employment tax at 14% or 16% or whatever the heck it is) and then you're STILL driving to cut your wood instead of having it delivered. You're still not winning with me. I said the $5.50 to buy it was a savings because I didn't have to stack it or drive to get it.

Your amortization argument FURTHER feeds my point. If you're writing it off over time are you actually realizing those savings with your uncle... uncle sam?

 

[jimbojango]

I have/had 40 cords css. At around $300 dry cord HERE, that's $12,000. Had the truck, had the saw, had the maul. Diesel for truck $1,000 should be more than enough. $500 gas/oil mix, chains again more than enough. $10,500 profit over 2 1/2 yrs of a bad economy. The time spent there was no way to work, as there was no work over 40, not always 40. So I made around $4k a year tax free on my time that I would have been in front of the boob tube or computer. Now things are getting busy to work over time and no heating bills for a higher income to expense ratio for the next few years. I could not do this with any other form of heat.

atta boy! I like that you actually posted your figures and had a legitimate way of prioritizing it. I'm not 100% sure why you "couldn't work" but jobs were (and are) hard to come by. Using your free time in this scenario was great and made you a lot of extra dollars and probably even more in heat savings over the next few years when times will be good and you don't have to miss work to go cut it.

 

[jimbojango]

That is simply not true.

Corn must be at the right moisture and be clean of dust and "bees wings" in order for the auger of a corn stove to work reliably.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Clean corn is vital in corn stoves.-a0183981954

In our region of the world when you cut corn it IS clean out of the combine and goes into the bin clean. Flooded corn never gets cut and becomes an insurance claim. We must not know much about farming to set a combine to blow what little dust there is off so it feeds. Called my buddy that burns corn and he steadfastly says 8% moisture corn at $4 makes sense and $6 does not.