Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

[Idahonative]

Many companies are moving away from pro rata warrantees. This company may follow suit in the future.

You might want to rethink how warranty works. There are really only two ways for the manufacturer to pay for warranty repair and stay in business. Either they pay the cost directly and charge the customers when a stove is purchased to make up the expense or they purchase insurance and charge the customers for the policy. The cost of the Blaze King suggests you may be pre-paying the actual cost of any warranty replacement parts.

Whichever stove a person decides to buy really doesn't matter to me. I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove. There are stove manufacturers that use things like "efficiency" to manipulate and confuse people into thinking their stoves are best. I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it.

The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me. Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper? It is a significant selling point and it gives customers piece of mind that their hard earned dollars were well spent.

As for the BK warranty: I think you are completely off base. The price of a BK product has very little to do with "pricing in" the warranty. When you buy a BK product, you are paying for engineering and testing, quality materials and manufacturing, and a proven design that works like no other.

I own a business and I know what it is like to compete in the marketplace. We have people call and inquire about our prices, then almost hang up on us when they discover we are 20% higher than the competition. Without even giving us a chance to explain why we are higher and why our product is in a different league when it comes to quality. But yet, we turn away as many customers as we take in because we are at full capacity. Why is that? Because quality is king and although it isn't worth it for some, the majority of people appreciate and are willing to pay a higher price for a better quality product.

 

[Ambull01]

Whichever stove a person decides to buy really doesn't matter to me. I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove. There are stove manufacturers that use things like "efficiency" to manipulate and confuse people into thinking their stoves are best. I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it.

The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me. Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper? It is a significant selling point and it gives customers piece of mind that their hard earned dollars were well spent.

As for the BK warranty: I think you are completely off base. The price of a BK product has very little to do with "pricing in" the warranty. When you buy a BK product, you are paying for engineering and testing, quality materials and manufacturing, and a proven design that works like no other.

I own a business and I know what it is like to compete in the marketplace. We have people call and inquire about our prices, then almost hang up on us when they discover we are 20% higher than the competition. Without even giving us a chance to explain why we are higher and why our product is in a different league when it comes to quality. But yet, we turn away as many customers as we take in because we are at full capacity. Why is that? Because quality is king and although it isn't worth it for some, the majority of people appreciate and are willing to pay a higher price for a better quality product.

Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything.

Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.

 

[Idahonative]

I live in a Victorian style house so it will fit perfectly. The all white model looks the best IMO and I hear it gives great fire views. Cost and no fire view may be the only downside to the BKs. There's also some discussion about creosote/soot build up with BKs since the flue gas temps are really low. Seems like a real minor issue though.

Lack of "fire view" is a deal breaker with you even though I think you previously stated you wanted a stove that was capable of extended burns? You can't have it both ways. If you like watching a beautiful fire then BK is definitely NOT for you. You will never come close to 30-40 hour burns if you are watching the fire. To achieve those kind of burn times, the firebox must be choked down to a smolder and the user sees mostly black inside the stove during normal operation.

And creosote/soot build up is not a problem as long as the stove is operated per the manual. Because the firebox has to be choked down to create smoke for the cat, there is some buildup in the firebox...NOT the flue. A 15-20 minute burn off during reloading keeps everything clean which I believe you want to do regardless of which stove you have.

 

[Ambull01]

Lack of "fire view" is a deal breaker with you even though I think you previously stated you wanted a stove that was capable of extended burns? You can't have it both ways. If you like watching a beautiful fire then BK is definitely NOT for you. You will never come close to 30-40 hour burns if you are watching the fire. To achieve those kind of burn times, the firebox must be choked down to a smolder and the user sees mostly black inside the stove during normal operation.

And creosote/soot build up is not a problem as long as the stove is operated per the manual. Because the firebox has to be choked down to create smoke for the cat, there is some buildup in the firebox...NOT the flue. A 15-20 minute burn off during reloading keeps everything clean which I believe you want to do regardless of which stove you have.

Very true dude! Yeah, I always want things both ways. I have a moderate ADD lol.

I'm totally new to wood burning so I'm still enamored with having a fire in the house. Also lived in Hawaii for most of my life so didn't grow up the need to burn things. Now I'm trying to make up for lost time. Find myself watching the fire instead of the tv.

As for the soot/creosote I just read that on the hearth site from BK owners. They're saying it's just on the cap screen so if you remove that there will be no issues.

 

[Idahonative]

Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything.

Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.

Need some coffee Bro? I've got a suggestion for you...read my posts on this site (not just this thread) and you will completely and fully answer your own question. How do I know BK is a better product? How do you know it isn't? Do you own either stove? And did you read the part in my last post that said:

"I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it."

If my opinions bother you, don't read them. Simple as that.

 

[BrianK]

Speaking of personal opinions...BKs are excellent stoves, my problem is they just ain't shaped right...

Separated at birth?

 

[1project2many]

I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove.

But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.

The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me.

Warranty is risk management. That's all it is. It's an insurance policy provided to the buyer. Some people feel a company should be able to guarantee a good product nearly forever. The logic is something like, "If it's truly good, they'll never have to replace a part, and the warranty will cost nothing." Others seem to think the warranty term indicates quality: "If they have to offer such a big warranty, the product must be junk." But there is no single way to look at warranty that will objectively indicate quality. Entire marketing campaigns are built around warranty terms and the public is swayed back and forth, just like they can be swayed with "New and Improved" , collector editions, and any number of marketing tricks. The manufacturer's view is that providing warranty is accepting risk and they need to assign a cost to that risk. Assigning cost is tricky business because it involves prediction and that's a fairly tough game to get right.

Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper?

Some potential scenarios? Company needed financing to go into manufacturing and the financer was not comfortable accepting risk. Or investors weren't happy to invest with a lower return on investment calculated when the potential cost of a longer warranty was included. Or, the manufacturer had high confidence in the product but low confidence in the consumer and didn't want to feel forced into replacing every part a consumer thought was faulty because he had a stated warranty. Maybe the manufacturer has seen the explosion of potentially unnecessary "meetoo" warranty claims that can pop up because of internet discussions and does not feel comfortable putting a business at risk for the whimsy of social networks.

As for the BK warranty: I think you are completely off base. The price of a BK product has very little to do with "pricing in" the warranty. When you buy a BK product, you are paying for engineering and testing, quality materials and manufacturing, and a proven design that works like no other.

So at some point they should have recovered the cost of engineering and lowered the price. At some point they should be achieving greater efficiency in manufacturing and should be lowering the cost of the stove. At some point they should have recovered the cost of testing and certification and lowered the cost to the consumer. What keeps the cost up? Do they have an R&D lab that's releasing new technology? Are they frequently bringing new stoves to market? Is it pure profit? I realize that better products cost more, but it's foolish to believe some of the cost doesn't go into covering warranty and customer service. I can give a fine example of a nationally branded muffler with a lifetime warranty that's almost 2x the price of the one year warranty version yet shows little difference in materials and construction. The extra cost buys the replacement muffler up front, and if you don't take them up on the replacement then they've made 2x the normal sale price.

Because quality is king and although it isn't worth it for some, the majority of people appreciate and are willing to pay a higher price for a better quality product.

Are you talking about the majority of your customers? Because the majority of US consumers do not value quality over cost. Wal-mart is not the giant that it is because the majority will pay more for quality. Automakers and aftermarket parts suppliers have not moved manufacturing offshore because the majority of customers are willing to pay more for quality. Brand after established quality brand has not been purchased and changed until it is nothing more than a name because a majority of people want to pay more for quality. No, sadly, Cost is king.

 

[BrianK]

In a off topic reply BrianK i like your splitter that must really save your back.

Thanks al-k, it works good but its a little slow.

That splitter was built by an old timer with a Yanmar 9hp diesel motor and what looks like a hydraulic unit off an old dozer.

I added the ChinaFreight pickup bed crane for lifting the big stuff. It was the cheapest quickest way to add a log lifter that I could find.

But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.

Thank you. This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.

And that's my last comment on this thread.

 

[Idahonative]

But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.




Warranty is risk management. That's all it is. It's an insurance policy provided to the buyer. Some people feel a company should be able to guarantee a good product nearly forever. The logic is something like, "If it's truly good, they'll never have to replace a part, and the warranty will cost nothing." Others seem to think the warranty term indicates quality: "If they have to offer such a big warranty, the product must be junk." But there is no single way to look at warranty that will objectively indicate quality. Entire marketing campaigns are built around warranty terms and the public is swayed back and forth, just like they can be swayed with "New and Improved" , collector editions, and any number of marketing tricks. The manufacturer's view is that providing warranty is accepting risk and they need to assign a cost to that risk. Assigning cost is tricky business because it involves prediction and that's a fairly tough game to get right.




Some potential scenarios? Company needed financing to go into manufacturing and the financer was not comfortable accepting risk. Or investors weren't happy to invest with a lower return on investment calculated when the potential cost of a longer warranty was included. Or, the manufacturer had high confidence in the product but low confidence in the consumer and didn't want to feel forced into replacing every part a consumer thought was faulty because he had a stated warranty. Maybe the manufacturer has seen the explosion of potentially unnecessary "meetoo" warranty claims that can pop up because of internet discussions and does not feel comfortable putting a business at risk for the whimsy of social networks.




So at some point they should have recovered the cost of engineering and lowered the price. At some point they should be achieving greater efficiency in manufacturing and should be lowering the cost of the stove. At some point they should have recovered the cost of testing and certification and lowered the cost to the consumer. What keeps the cost up? Do they have an R&D lab that's releasing new technology? Are they frequently bringing new stoves to market? Is it pure profit? I realize that better products cost more, but it's foolish to believe some of the cost doesn't go into covering warranty and customer service. I can give a fine example of a nationally branded muffler with a lifetime warranty that's almost 2x the price of the one year warranty version yet shows little difference in materials and construction. The extra cost buys the replacement muffler up front, and if you don't take them up on the replacement then they've made 2x the normal sale price.


Are you talking about the majority of your customers? Because the majority of US consumers do not value quality over cost. Wal-mart is not the giant that it is because the majority will pay more for quality. Automakers and aftermarket parts suppliers have not moved manufacturing offshore because the majority of customers are willing to pay more for quality. Brand after established quality brand has not been purchased and changed until it is nothing more than a name because a majority of people want to pay more for quality. No, sadly, Cost is king.

Why do I hear a little voice in my head telling me you are in some way connected to Woodstock? Is it coincidence BrianK "likes" your post seconds after you post it? What is your vested interest?

Like I told Ambull, my opinions are my opinions only and if you don't like them, don't read them. This forum is about information and people have a right to hear from all sides. Sounds like my posts hit a nerve with you which makes me believe you are more than just a customer. Anyway, enough said.

 

[Ambull01]

Need some coffee Bro? I've got a suggestion for you...read my posts on this site (not just this thread) and you will completely and fully answer your own question. How do I know BK is a better product? How do you know it isn't? Do you own either stove? And did you read the part in my last post that said:

"I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it."

If my opinions bother you, don't read them. Simple as that.

Actually, I do need some coffee. Couldn't sleep last night thinking about Drill this weekend.

Your opinions don't bother me a bit.

@1project2many Economics major?

 

[Idahonative]

Thank you. This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.

And that's my last comment on this thread.

Brian, I'm not bashing Woodstock. Is it a crime to discuss things that don't add up to me? Is it a crime to question some of their claims or their poor warranty? You guys want to attack me for simply stating my opinions? That's not what this forum is about.

When you did your Beta, someone on this forum said your thread was starting to "smell like spam". I'm wondering now if your Beta was a sincere test by a customer or was it more than that? Maybe you are connected to Woodstock more than you are saying. The timing of your "like" on post #67 is just too coincidental. Almost like you are communicating with someone behind the scenes. Kind of like the private message you sent me saying the owners of BK and Woodstock were close friends and don't like people tearing down their businesses. Were you trying to stifle my input?

Enough said on my part as well.

 

[Marshy]

Thanks al-k, it works good but its a little slow.

That splitter was built by an old timer with a Yanmar 9hp diesel motor and what looks like a hydraulic unit off an old dozer.

I added the ChinaFreight pickup bed crane for lifting the big stuff. It was the cheapest quickest way to add a log lifter that I could find.


Thank you. This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.

And that's my last comment on this thread.

Now now lets just slow down a little, I would say both sides are "advocating" their side just as much as the other and I dont think anyone is bashing. Regardless, I think its time to move on and get back on topic which was the defferences in the two technologies.

The thing that interests me is the hybrid stove uses both technologies so you would think it would class leading in the amount of emissions it releases but there are others that are marginally better. Why is that? In general, it seems like the secondary burn stoves produce on average more effluent... any insite?

 

[1project2many]

@Ambull01, No, not an economics major.

@Idahonative, not a customer. Interested in cat stoves over current secondary burn stoves and watching discussion. Presenting rational contrasting viewpoints for discussion. You're clearly passionate. Remember other stoves / brands may be just as acceptable to other people.

 

[Idahonative]

Speaking of personal opinions...BKs are excellent stoves, my problem is they just ain't shaped right...

Separated at birth?

Wow, and you get on here and accuse me of bashing? Seems kind of childish. You do know BK makes more than just that Princess Parlor right?:


King:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-king.html

Ashford 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-ashford30.html

Chinook 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-chinook30.html

Sirocco 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-sirocco30.html


I'll go one step further than my last post and say I believe you are connected to Woodstock more than just as a customer. Is this how Woodstock plans to sell their stoves? How many other Woodstock customers have their names mentioned by the owner in HIS blog? Just Beta by a customer, right?

 

[BrianK]

I'll go one step further than my last post and say I believe you are connected to Woodstock more than just as a customer.

1) You are wrong.
2)Paranoia and ad hominem is a poor substitute for reasoned debate.

Good day.

 

[Ronaldo]

Back more to the topic: when I was looking into stoves 14 yrs. or so ago, I was told that if you like to see active flames then a secondary combustion technology was the way to go and if I didnt care one way or another the cats will give a longer burn time but with less visible fire view.
This does seem to be the case, if that matters to anyone.

 

[Idahonative]

This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.

I see. So I don't understand even the basics of combustors, yet you think my stove "uses exactly the same technology and materials" as the Woodstock Ideal Steel? My stove is NOT a hybrid. It is a cat stove and the cat is made of a ceramic substrate...not a stainless steel foil substrate. You may want to get your facts straight Brian before you go calling me a "keyboard commando" and a consumer who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[BrianK]

I see. So I don't understand even the basics of combustors, yet you think my stove "uses exactly the same technology and materials" as the Woodstock Ideal Steel? My stove is NOT a hybrid. It is a cat stove and the cat is made of a ceramic substrate...not a stainless steel foil substrate. You may want to get your facts straight Brian before you go calling me a "keyboard commando" and a consumer who doesn't know what he's talking about.

As you and anyone else reading the thread knows, I was specifically replying to your false statements about Woodstock's catalytic combustors, not whether your stove is a hybrid or cat only stove::

I've read about Woodstocks cats wearing out in one year. Could it have something to do with Woodstock NOT using precious metals in their cats like other manufacturers? According to their website: "The catalytic combustor is made of stainless steel foil." I have some real concerns about longevity and the efficiency differences between precious metals and stainless steel foil.

The Vice Pres of Blaze King is the one who said they use the same materials as Woodstock, not me. Here's his quote from a forum conversation in September 2014 (if you want to find it online, just Google search the entire quote):

Applied also does their own washcoats, yes.

Yes both Tom [President of Woodstock] and we use Durafoil.

Last I heard Buck purchased their cats from ACI.

All the ceramic cats work just fine IF the stove is properly designed.
​

Regardless of what your cat was made of at the time of its manufacture, in their cats, both Woodstock and BK are currently utilizing stainless steel DuraFoil, which you mischaracterized as substandard practice in your second quote above.

Kind of like the private message you sent me saying the owners of BK and Woodstock were close friends and don't like people tearing down their businesses. Were you trying to stifle my input?

Again, for anyone reading along, I was simply trying to save you a little embarassment, but since you insist in mischaracterizing my PM, here it is:

No problem. The owners of Blaze King and Woodstock are personal friends and they highly respect each other and each other's products and designs. They don't like to see their customers tearing down each other's company or products. They are both leaders in the field and they are both doing great R&D.

Let's give it a rest now, OK?

 

[Idahonative]

As you and anyone else reading the thread knows, I was specifically replying to your false statements about Woodstock's catalytic combustors, not whether your stove is a hybrid or cat only stove::

The Vice Pres of Blaze King is the one who said they use the same materials as Woodstock, not me. Here's his quote from a forum conversation in September 2014 (if you want to find it online, just Google search the entire quote):

Applied also does their own washcoats, yes.

Yes both Tom [President of Woodstock] and we use Durafoil.

Last I heard Buck purchased their cats from ACI.

All the ceramic cats work just fine IF the stove is properly designed.
​

Regardless of what your cat was made of at the time of its manufacture, in their cats, both Woodstock and BK are currently utilizing stainless steel DuraFoil, which you mischaracterized as substandard practice in your second quote above.



Again, for anyone reading along, I was simply trying to save you a little embarassment, but since you insist in mischaracterizing my PM, here it is:



Let's give it a rest now, OK?

I might have been wrong about you. I don't think you work for Woodstock, I think you are studying to be a politician. You say something, then say you meant something else, then blame it on my false statements, then say it was meant for someone else, then point the finger at someone else, and finally...you're just doing me a favor. You got a bright future...I'm thinking all the way to the Federal level. Yep, time to move on.

 

[CTYank]

Hope I have the right site. It's firewood hoarders club right? Only been a member there for a real short time. Haven't even posted yet, just doing a lot of reading. Seems very civilized. I really like three firewood/chainsaw/wood stove sites so far. They're all different so it keeps me interested. Hearth is filled with wood Nazis so I go there to roll my eyes about seasoning white oak for at least 3 years, FHC to read about stoves/wood burning without having to weave through BS, and this site to learn you need at least a 60cc.

I've been reading more about how and why woodstock designed the IS. I'm liking it more and more.

So you met the owner, cool. I need to take a drive up there soon. Wife wants to visit Maine so may swing by on the way up.

Can't believe people are still clearing up Sandy damage. No I don't have a Tanaka, I'm taking a break from CAD right now. Caught myself getting too into accumulating chainsaws. Read Thoreau a couple years ago and found it to be the best book I've read. I wanted to kinda model my life around his mentality and I can't do that with 50 chainsaws lol. I want something light in the future though, my Makita 6421 is a bit heavy.

Yup, that's the site. Sure looks a lot more civilized than here, without the sycophantic butt-kissers and knuckle-draggers too. Almost too nice. Never did like Fred Rogers much either. Forestry forum has different areas of expertise covered, AND some folks that got banned from here.

Folks at hearth (before the nazis staged their putsch) promoted an open house at Woodstock, and Tom Morrissey was answering any and all question about the new-at-the-time "Progress Hybrid" stove that was going into production momentarily. A no-bs guy IMO.

The delay with the Sandy cleanup was in arranging the federal financing for the cleanup and reforestation. Takes a while to get a state forester involved and prepare the reforestation plan. On some of the sites we're working, town wetlands lords were a real PITA too. I just got my 10th saw, a 576XP 28" Husqy. Some friends think I'm crazy. Could be, but I use them all, and if they don't do the job, they're gone. Some sites I'll be working, I'd pack a 61cc Dolmar and 33cc Tanaka, and have work suitable for both. The 576 weighs about the same as the Dolly, so it's in that mix now. Once some snowpack shrinks, and lets us get trail access again, that is. We have some really large blowdowns to do some cutting on, and lots of them.

If you're in the market for Husqy/Jonsered give sponsor Spike60 a shout. He's an encyclopedia on those saws, and can give you a great deal on new/used. He's 12 mi W of Kingston NY on NY 28. (He ships saws to folks all over the region too.)