Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

[Chris-PA]

the Ashford 30 will heat a home TWO TIMES as long

More undefined words - what does this mean?

• Are you saying it extracts 2 times as much energy from the same wood load?
  
• Are you saying they both extract similar energy from the wood load but one looses 3 times* as much of it up the stack (not particulates, but heat directly)?
• Are you saying one burns 2 times as long but at 1/2 the energy output rate?

Show me a 3rd party standardized test that shows the two stoves, and how one extracts 2 times the energy from the same load of wood, or puts 2 times the energy into the house.

There is a certain amount of energy in the wood load. Particulates up the stack represent energy in the form of carbon bonds not broken, but both perform similarly. There are two paths for the energy to take - into the room or up the stack. If the energy did not stay in unburned particulates, and did not enter the living space, then it MUST have gone up the stack - why would this be? With similar catalysts why would one lose so much more heat up the stack, and why couldn't you adjust the air inlet to correct that?

Perhaps you are proposing that the secondary combustion inlets cause this extra loss up the stack? I could believe that the secondary air inlet would increase air inlet and loss up the stack somewhat, but would also increase the peak heat output rate. I see that the Woodstock Hybrid controls both primary and secondary air, so I see no reason it should need to lose more heat up the stack.

These stoves have similar efficiencies of extracting heat from the wood, and the only thing you've got to work with is the heat loss up the stack. Given that, the claim that one stove "will heat a home TWO TIMES as long" is either a very bold claim that would require an absolutely staging advancement (hard to imagine given they're both iron boxes), or the claim is just just an unremarkable statement of the age old tradeoff between output rate and burn time.

*Energy into the room = Energy extracted - Energy up the stack
Er = Et - Es
80 = 100 - 20
40 = 100 - 60
60/20 = 3

 

[Idahonative]

More undefined words - what does this mean?

• Are you saying it extracts 2 times as much energy from the same wood load?
  
• Are you saying they both extract similar energy from the wood load but one looses 3 times* as much of it up the stack (not particulates, but heat directly)?
• Are you saying one burns 2 times as long but at 1/2 the energy output rate?

Show me a 3rd party standardized test that shows the two stoves, and how one extracts 2 times the energy from the same load of wood, or puts 2 times the energy into the house.

There is a certain amount of energy in the wood load. Particulates up the stack represent energy in the form of carbon bonds not broken, but both perform similarly. There are two paths for the energy to take - into the room or up the stack. If the energy did not stay in unburned particulates, and did not enter the living space, then it MUST have gone up the stack - why would this be? With similar catalysts why would one lose so much more heat up the stack, and why couldn't you adjust the air inlet to correct that?

Perhaps you are proposing that the secondary combustion inlets cause this extra loss up the stack? I could believe that the secondary air inlet would increase air inlet and loss up the stack somewhat, but would also increase the peak heat output rate. I see that the Woodstock Hybrid controls both primary and secondary air, so I see no reason it should need to lose more heat up the stack.

These stoves have similar efficiencies of extracting heat from the wood, and the only thing you've got to work with is the heat loss up the stack. Given that, the claim that one stove "will heat a home TWO TIMES as long" is either a very bold claim that would require an absolutely staging advancement (hard to imagine given they're both iron boxes), or the claim is just just an unremarkable statement of the age old tradeoff between output rate and burn time.

*Energy into the room = Energy extracted - Energy up the stack
Er = Et - Es
80 = 100 - 20
40 = 100 - 60
60/20 = 3

What does it mean? It means you need to do more research. It means you are trying to make this more complicated than it really is. It means, for you to be taken seriously, you need to try one of the BK products. It also means I am still waiting for you to answer the question I have asked you twice.

 

[Del_]

Ok, I'm going to tell you straight up, I think that is complete BS. The Ideal Steel and Blaze King Ashford 30 have similar particulate emissions but the Ashford 30 will heat a home TWO TIMES as long on the same wood. Same thing with the Chinook 30 and the Sirocco 30. Heck, the Princess produces more than twice the particulate emissions as the Ideal Steel and the same can be said for it as well. All of these models hold LESS FUEL than the Ideal Steel.

People can debate this all day long but it doesn't change the facts. Explain that to me Chris. And I'm being completely serious. If I'm wrong about heating efficiency, then please explain to me how this is possible.

So because a stove has twice the burn time you assume the stoves are putting out the same heat output during this time?

Have you graphs of the heat output of these stoves over their burn times?

If not, you're making unfounded statements.

 

[Chris-PA]

What does it mean? It means you need to do more research. It means you are trying to make this more complicated then it really is. It means, for you to be taken seriously, you need to try one of the BK products. It also means I am still waiting for you to answer the question I have asked you twice.

You are asking to answer a "question" that is undefined, and refuse to refine this question into something meaningful even though I've given you several suggestions of possible ways to do that. Apparently you wish me to confirm or deny customer testimonials, which are not quantifiable and so I obviously cannot do that.

Then you state that since I have not bought, installed and used one of these magical stoves I can't be taken seriously - well what a convenient way to avoid explaining where the energy comes from.

You're correct, it isn't that complicated - it's an iron box with burning wood in it. Where does all this extra energy come from for the BK, or where does the other guy's energy go?

I do appreciate you getting me to look more closely at the Woodstock Hybrid though - it's really a nice unit.

 

[BrianK]

Then you state that since I have not bought, installed and used one of these magical stoves I can't be taken seriously - well what a convenient way to avoid explaining where the energy comes from.

You're correct, it isn't that complicated - it's an iron box with burning wood in it. Where does all this extra energy come from for the BK, or where does the other guy's energy go?

Its hard to debate woo.

 

[wampum]

I have had my Woodstock Fireview for close to 10 years.About the 1st of December I pulled it out and replaced it with my old Fisher Papa Bear.I actually sold Fisher stoves back in the 70,s.I still have 2 of them here the Mama bear and the Grandma bear in the basement.I light the Grandma when it goes below 20 degrees.

Okay why did I pull my Woodstock?In 10 years I am on my second Cat,no big deal.The last one cost me around $90.About 4 years ago I had to replace the cast iron baffle that holds the door that allows the heat to go through the Cat or directly to the chimney.This cost me about $150 if I remember correctly.I noticed that the stove was not heating as well as in the past when it started getting cold in December,my bad.That baffle warped again,heat was going directly up the chimney and not through the Cat.I failed to look it over well last summer,I never dreamed it warped already.So I would have been with out the stove for at least a week while waiting on new parts,so I put the old Fisher back in.The Fisher uses more wood but it makes more heat and holds a fire easily over night.

I like the Woodstock because I burn less wood so I will replace the cast iron once again.I did go to their site to check out the IS and noticed the completely changed the design of the Fireview. I will call them next week and see if I can upgrade my stove to the new design.The Cat on my stove is in the center,the new design places the Cat on the left side.My experience has been they are good people to deal with.I picked my stove up at the factory and met a couple of them.I am sure they changed the design for a reason.Putting it to one side would most likely give it more strength,that may stop the warping problem,we will see.

 

[Idahonative]

So because a stove has twice the burn time you assume the stoves are putting out the same heat output during this time?

Have you graphs of the heat output of these stoves over their burn times?

If not, you're making unfounded statements.

You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.

And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat

 

[BrianK]

I do appreciate you getting me to look more closely at the Woodstock Hybrid though - it's really a nice unit.

Here's an account that a fellow Woodstock customer related elsewhere today:

I walked into Woodstock's store in early January carrying the the unshielded version of the PH cooktop with a crack in it. I was met by Tom (the owner), who had never met me before, and I didn't immediately introduce myself as an IS beta tester from last year. He took one glance at the cooktop propped up beside me, smiled and asked if I could wait a minute or two while he got me a replacement. He came back out in a little bit, apologizing for the wait because he had to attach the heat shield to a new top since everyone else was quite busy. No charge. No questions. Smiles, apologies, and thank-you's for the business. I don't get that service on things I spend 10x the money on.​

The original unshielded PH cooktop would have been shipped with the first batch of stoves early in 2011. It was upgraded later.

How many businesses have an owner willing to do that, with apologies, no questions asked, four years after the stove's production? How many customers ever get to meet the owner of the company that manufactured their stove, let alone be waited on by them?

Its nice to deal with a small company whose number one priority is customer service and satisfaction.

 

[Idahonative]

Here's an account that a fellow Woodstock customer related elsewhere today:

I walked into Woodstock's store in early January carrying the the unshielded version of the PH cooktop with a crack in it. I was met by Tom (the owner), who had never met me before, and I didn't immediately introduce myself as an IS beta tester from last year. He took one glance at the cooktop propped up beside me, smiled and asked if I could wait a minute or two while he got me a replacement. He came back out in a little bit, apologizing for the wait because he had to attach the heat shield to a new top since everyone else was quite busy. No charge. No questions. Smiles, apologies, and thank-you's for the business. I don't get that service on things I spend 10x the money on.​

The original unshielded PH cooktop would have been shipped with the first batch of stoves early in 2011. It was upgraded later.

How many businesses have an owner willing to do that, with apologies, no questions asked, four years after the stove's production? How many customers ever get to meet the owner of the company that manufactured their stove, let alone be waited on by them?

Its nice to deal with a small company whose number one priority is customer service and satisfaction.

You're a funny dude Brian. Just yesterday you said, "I don't like seeing exact quotes here from AnotherSite's thread" and today you are cutting and pasting from another web site. I guess if it fits your agenda it's ok?

 

[Del_]

You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.

And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat

Hundreds of testimonials can be found for any major wood stove company, so testimonials are of limited value.

I find it highly unlikely that Blazeking is getting from what you are saying close to double the real world heat out of the same quantity of fuel that Woodstock.

I'd find some controlled testing highly interesting.

 

[BrianK]

You're a funny dude Brian. Just yesterday you said, "I don't like seeing exact quotes here from AnotherSite's thread" and today you are cutting a pasting from another web site. I guess if it fits your agenda it's ok?

LOL! One of your buddies was posting voluminous excerpts from your posts here at another forum. The posts were way off topic, but that obviously fits your agenda.

 

[Chris-PA]

You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.

And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat

Your response to Del had nothing to do with what he had stated. Nobody has said your BK can't heat.

How does it heat twice as long as a similar stove, when tests show they both extract the same amount of heat from the wood? You seem to have forgotten this claim.

I'll keep using my cheap US Stoves secondary combustion stove, which appears to have suffered no deterioration of any kind after 7 years. I think I got my $775 worth. And I'm still not much interested in any product that requires periodic replacement of specialized parts from a small manufacturer, as I expect many such companies will be out of business in a few years.

 

[Idahonative]

LOL! One of your buddies was posting voluminous excerpts from your posts here at another forum. The posts were way off topic, but that obviously fits your agenda.

How does someone else's "voluminous excerpts" on another forum have anything to do with my agenda? Your post makes about as much sense as a person claiming Woodstock stoves have a 50 year unconditional warranty, only cost $129, and will burn all season on two pieces of wood.

 

[Idahonative]

Your response to Del had nothing to do with what he had stated. Nobody has said your BK can't heat.

How does it heat twice as long as a similar stove, when tests show they both extract the same amount of heat from the wood? You seem to have forgotten this claim.

I'll keep using my cheap US Stoves secondary combustion stove, which appears to have suffered no deterioration of any kind after 7 years. I think I got my $775 worth. And I'm still not much interested in any product that requires periodic replacement of specialized parts from a small manufacturer, as I expect many such companies will be out of business in a few years.

Well to tell you truthfully, you are far better off with your stove priced at $775 than you would be buying an Ideal Steel at $2000. I would buy an Englander 30-NC from Home Depot for $899 any day of the week before I would buy an Ideal Steel. Just not that much of a performance difference to justify paying $2000.

And you do realize that Blaze King has been using cats for over 30 years right? Not much chance of cat manufacturers going out of business. Cats are here to stay.

 

[Chris-PA]

Well to tell you truthfully, you are far better off with your stove priced at $775 then you would be buying an Ideal Steel at $2000.

And you do realize that Blaze King has been using cats for over 20 years right? Not much chance of cat manufacturers going out of business. Cats are here to stay.

I'm still waiting to hear where the energy comes from, and how the BK burns twice as long as a similar cat stove.

 

[Idahonative]

I'm still waiting to hear where the energy comes from, and how the BK burns twice as long as a similar cat stove.

Chris, you really need to start paying more attention when you are in my class

 

[Chris-PA]

Chris, you really need to start paying more attention when you are in my class

Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anything - you're avoiding the previous claims you made and cannot back up with any kind of real science.

 

[Ambull01]

I have had my Woodstock Fireview for close to 10 years.About the 1st of December I pulled it out and replaced it with my old Fisher Papa Bear.I actually sold Fisher stoves back in the 70,s.I still have 2 of them here the Papa bear and the Grandma bear in the basement.I light the Grandma when it goes below 20 degrees.

Okay why did I pull my Woodstock?In 10 years I am on my second Cat,no big deal.The last one cost me around $90.About 4 years ago I had to replace the cast iron baffle that holds the door that allows the heat to go through the Cat or directly to the chimney.This cost me about $150 if I remember correctly.I noticed that the stove was not heating as well as in the past when it started getting cold in December,my bad.That baffle warped again,heat was going directly up the chimney and not through the Cat.I failed to look it over well last summer,I never dreamed it warped already.So I would have been with out the stove for at least a week while waiting on new parts,so I put the old Fisher back in.The Fisher uses more wood but it makes more heat and holds a fire easily over night.

I like the Woodstock because I burn less wood so I will replace the cast iron once again.I did go to their site to check out the IS and noticed the completely changed the design of the Fireview. I will call them next week and see if I can upgrade my stove to the new design.The Cat on my stove is in the center,the new design places the Cat on the left side.My experience has been they are good people to deal with.I picked my stove up at the factory and met a couple of them.I am sure they changed the design for a reason.Putting it to one side would most likely give it more strength,that may stop the warping problem,we will see.

How big is the firebox on the Fisher?

 

[wampum]

How big is the firebox on the Fisher?

About 18X18 X30

 

[Idahonative]

Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anything - you're avoiding the previous claims you made and cannot back up with any kind of real science.

The "real science" is sitting in my living room as we speak, heating our home for 24 hrs. straight on pine. Tell your buddy Brian to try that with his super efficient Ideal Steel. He'd be lucky to get 8 hours. You see Chris, unlike you, I actually own and operate one of the stoves being discussed. When you buy your Ideal Steel, come back and we can have a grown up discussion. Until then, you have been grounded from my class and won't be allowed to participate