60cc Saws the "Best" general purpose saw concept proven over time? Maybe

[Chris-PA]

I suspect it is limited how much longer the EPA will let Echo continue doing what they do (neither using "strato" or Autotune")

I don't believe the EPA cares how you meet the requirements, it's a performance test - apparently with some averaging across the product line. They'll want to see some assurance that the stuff that is actually sold performs like what was submitted too. All the solutions, both good and bad - AT, strato, exhaust delayed scavenging, cat mufflers, limiters, epoxy, choked porting, SLR mufflers etc. - are how the manufacturer chose to approach those requirements. Some of these solutions are better than others.

 

[Chris-PA]

Dolmar has entered the AutoTune fray with the PS-6100

I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?

 

[weimedog]

I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?

I honestly don't know ... as you said it doesn't matter how they achieve the desired results. So at this point I know virtually nothing about the Dolmar other than it's a precursor to what's coming in their model line over the next few years and it seems to make the EPA happy. Anything I learn about them is new knowledge to me. And to another post earlier in this thread; Folks say I'm Husqvarna focused....I am because its what I have access to. I just like working in the woods and enjoy the saw part of that equation regardless of brand, I've had more fun with My Huztl MS660 builds than anything short of the Husqvarna 372's & 562's....where is the brand loyalty in that?

 

[svk]

Regarding issues with the early AT models: I once bought a first model year snowmobile and learned my lesson. I feel for those who have had issues.

With that being said if legitimate issues come up from any saws that slipped through the cracks, any AS member should know darn well what to do with it at this point. And if they come across a dealer who doesn't know what to do, they need to find another dealer.

 

[weimedog]

Regarding issues with the early AT models: I once bought a first model year snowmobile and learned my lesson. I feel for those who have had issues.

With that being said if legitimate issues come up from any saws that slipped through the cracks, any AS member should know darn well what to do with it at this point. And if they come across a dealer who doesn't know what to do, they need to find another dealer.

Exactly.

 

[weimedog]

I would think you would share this on all the 562 problem threads as well as the 555. There seems to be at least one thread a week on those with major problems.
I thought the point of Autotune was to make the saw more simple for the operation of the saw. Why is it such a problem for people to operate it properly?

I thought about this a little....I have to confess I wasn't all that thrilled with the concept for a long time. Partly because of some of my "X-torq" experiences (even though they had NOTHING to do with autotune tech) , but I loved running my 555 so I knew at some point I simply had to dig in to those autotune saws...and when I first started working on them I was quite skeptical.....did a series of video's.. The first one got me a pile of hate mail because I was in fact a little hard on them .. And through the series I learned. Towards the end I warmed up to them and now I can tell you it was worth the effort.
A YouTube "play list" that documents that experience. Actually over a period of time & not for the simple minded, actually gets a little "how to build the damn watch" complex. BUT they do cover a lot of the changes in those models since they were first introduced. Need to do a "condensed" version at some point :

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtw-MqiEnI4FycTP1g2bjRM05YwvrovZm

 

[CoreyB]

I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?

The dolmar 6100 is not an Autotune. It is a reed strato. And will cut a ton of wood on one tank of fuel.
In all honesty autotune doesn't bother me except when even the local dealers will not support or work on them. (Yes poor dealer) the only local dealer that would even order me a 562 to be able to check it out stated it is bought sight unseen, no returns and no warranty work would be done by them. Because they did not and will not support the AT platforms.
Me I am more about easy starting, great AV , easy to clean and maintain, and no stupid outboard clutch unless under 35cc.

 

[weimedog]

The dolmar 6100 is not an Autotune. It is a reed strato. And will cut a ton of wood on one tank of fuel.
In all honesty autotune doesn't bother me except when even the local dealers will not support or work on them. (Yes poor dealer) the only local dealer that would even order me a 562 to be able to check it out stated it is bought sight unseen, no returns and no warranty work would be done by them. Because they did not and will not support the AT platforms.
.

I get that completely. We have a local dealer who hurt the model. Conversely three hours east of here is a dealer who has just as much pro logging and more than 50 percent of his customers have converted over to the 562's to where the 562 is his best selling model.....and a huge reason why is exactly what you just articulated. As far as Echo's. I would think since this isn't an affluent area, they would do better. Might be a dealer issues as those transcend brands..

AND to expand on that a little...four hours north east of here is a Dolmar dealer that just owns the local saw business so a lot of the success boils down to who's selling and supporting the brand...

 

[Idahonative]

What?

Explain this please. And why would you post this if I'm reading it correctly. What is your definition of win?

My posting this thread was about 60cc saws generically... the 465 is yet another entry into that price point and market place. Almost sounds like you are defensive to the point of desperation pushing so hard against the 465 and for a 590, interesting as it might be. I don't particularly care which one does best relative the others..and the postings here really don't have that much impact on the overall market place. We talk to each other. That's about it. Fact is all these saws work really well. The 465 is interesting to me... Andy got my attention as now I'm interested in the 590 because of his endorsement. If all I heard was yours....I would simply have ignored it and saw it for what it was. And the fact you are still here means you are paying attention to ours.... trying to spam it doesn't help your position, conversation does. My bet? The 455/465 & Home owner Stihl's sell more than all the Echo's combined...

You may not understand what I was saying but, trust me, Husky and Stihl know. You guys can talk all you want about how large Husky and Stihl's sales are but I can assure you they have felt the impact of Echo introducing the 590 (& other saws). It's really hard for the average firewood cutter to ignore the 590 while shopping for a new saw when price is a concern. The same could be said for the 490 as well. Not everyone can afford an $800+ saw. In fact, I would guess the majority of firewood cutters are not willing to spend anywhere near that.

And no defensiveness here...heck, I've never even owned a 590. I think you've really taken my comments the wrong way. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I actually like the Husky products. I'm just stubborn and don't like "auto tune" of any flavor. And should Echo introduce an auto tune saw (& more than likely will), check back and you will find me saying the same thing about Echo. That's one of the reasons I have two NIB 600p's (not in my sig) sitting on the shelf as we speak. For $400 each to my door, I couldn't pass them up. And they help to ensure that I don't have to buy an auto tune saw in the 20 or so years that I have left cutting wood (hopefully). Weird? Maybe, but to each their own. Between auto tune and the manufacturers greater and greater transition to Chinese made parts/units, I don't like where the industry is heading. I want to have a little control in what I run. But then again, I'm not the average customer so my opinions really don't mean squat.

 

[weimedog]

You may not understand what I was saying but, trust me, Husky and Stihl know. You guys can talk all you want about how large Husky and Stihl's sales are but I can assure you they have felt the impact of Echo introducing the 590 (& other saws). It's really hard for the average firewood cutter to ignore the 590 while shopping for a new saw when price is a concern. The same could be said for the 490 as well.

And no defensiveness here...heck, I've never even owned a 590. I think you've really taken my comments the wrong way. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I actually like the Husky products. I'm just stubborn and don't like "auto tune" of any flavor. And should Echo introduce an auto tune saw (& more than likely will), check back and you will find me saying the same thing about Echo. That's one of the reasons I have two NIB 600p's (not in my sig) sitting on the shelf as we speak. For $400 each to my door, I couldn't pass them up. And they help to insure that I don't have to buy an auto tune saw in the 20 or so years I have left cutting wood (hopefully). Weird? Maybe, but to each their own. Between auto tune and the manufacturers greater and greater transition to Chinese made parts/units, I don't like where the industry is heading. I want to have a little control in what I run. But then again, I'm not the average customer so my opinions really don't mean squat.

I certainly agree on two of those points....last one being a little control which is why one of Spike's comments peaked my interest. The other one might seem out of place so I'll keep it to myself. And bottom line is each can vote with their dollars. While not a great champion of the current implementation of autotune, I see potential in the future. I'll let others wonder about the big picture in the marketplace as I neither care nor have a horse in the race. I do know there is enough Husqvarna parts and saws around to keep me busy for my lifetime. I'll stick to building saws from junk piles. The 562 was a PITA in the beginning as I had to learn a whole new set of parameters. Have to say it was worth the effort. And you would hate my Chinese MS660's build from a pile of parts from a few sources .. even has Stihl parts in them.. But I've had fun with them. Like you said to each his own. But they have a lot in common with those simple Echo's.....lemecee.....built across the same pond....simple magnesium case halves....simple carburetor (walbro's on mine) ..and about the same price! I've got a 54mm and 56mm version. Sleepers. Was expecting pyrotechnics for the video's but ended up with bullet proof big simple saws that have made lots of small ones out of big ones this last year....talk about price performance! (Of course they can not be bought and the price of parts doesn't include the time to fit finish and assemble.) And I don't take any of this here in cyber space too seriously. Entertainment and sometimes a place to learn things...

I'm certain eventually Echo's will cross my work bench. Only a matter of time. As I've said several times, to me saws are both necessary and entertainment. Since I have a source of Husqvarna/Jonsered saws and parts, from two places; that is what I work on and with most of the time.

 

[CR888]

Very hard to ignore a 590 echo for under $400, in my country they are 1k......and for that reason they simply do not sell. They are a pretty darn good saw but at $1099 here retail, a MS362 or 562xp gets the nod. The echo top handles are fairly popular though being less than half the price of a 201t or 540xp. Those who run the TH's do like them.

 

[weimedog]

Very hard to ignore a 590 echo for under $400, in my country they are 1k......and for that reason they simply do not sell. They are a pretty darn good saw but at $1099 here retail, a MS362 or 562xp gets the nod. The echo top handles are fairly popular though being less than half the price of a 201t or 540xp. Those who run the TH's do like them.

Folks do what they do for reasons only they completely understand. Since the 555/562 series came out I've always thought the 555 was a better deal for the money. I put my money where my mouth was and bought one...awesome saw. Arguably the best 60cc saw in existence for me. While the 555 still sells nationally my local dealer says he can't give them away but the 562 is his best selling Husqvarna (This isn't Spike60's store) So obviously the price point while important in a given displacement class, it isn't everything. Even with all the teething issues the first 562's had they became a Husqvarna favorite in this part of the country with the pro loggers. In my area 390's , 576's and 562's are the Husqvarna brand saws that are most often used in the pro world. This is even more interesting because this is really Stihl country as there are twice as many Stihl dealers and the Stihl community certainly have used the rumors to brag about their better situations so those stories are a part of the local narrative..."yea....I know a guy who blew up THREE 562's!" Hear it often...but rarely hear "I blew up a 562" though! But even with that narrative, 562's still are gaining popularity. While you may see a Dolmar once in a while, I never see any Echo's other than the few small ones and a few old metal ones. My point is it really is a blend of things that makes these saws sell, not just a spec sheet and price point.

(Those 562xp's have the "It" factor, granted they are really awesome and I've crossed over as well to owning a pair of 562's, My personal all time favorite 60cc saw is my 555)

 

[7sleeper]

Over here many pro's are turning their back on the 560/562 class and are buying the 555 instead, simply because they aren't more productive by the end of the day and for them the price increase isn't worth the bling bling.

7

 

[blsnelling]

I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar.

Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?

 

[weimedog]

Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?

Hey it could be the altitude....

 

[Idahonative]

Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?

Here ya go Brad, I've cut and pasted my post so you can re-read what I said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[For the price they can be had at, it makes modding the 600p very attractive (same with the 590). Especially for guys like you who can do a lot of the work themselves. They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there. Everytime Mastermind does one, he comments on just how strong they are. I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar. That kind of performance in a 13 lb 4.8 oz. power head, a very reasonably priced, simple, high quality, high performance saw.]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you ought to have Randy port a 600p for you so you can see for yourself how it runs against a stock 441 and 461.

 

[Chris-PA]

Hey it could be the altitude....

Probably like the CS490, which stock will cut pretty close to a good 40cc saw, but if you grind on every surface will make a pretty decent 50cc saw.

 

[weimedog]

Probably like the CS490, which stock will cut pretty close to a good 40cc saw, but if you grind on every surface will make a pretty decent 50cc saw.

And after you send that saw out, paying shipping; and have all those surfaces massaged, you could spend less money just buying a good PS-6100 / MS362 / 562XP 60cc saw...

 

[weimedog]

Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?

Maybe after you do your thing on one..

 

[blsnelling]

I have ported a 600. They run very well after mods. However, IMHO, no 60cc saw replaced a good 70cc saw. There's just too much of a leap in the power and torque department. Now, if you're in smaller wood, I can see where it might cut close to the larger saw. However, small wood isn't what the larger saw is for. In 70cc deserving wood, the 600P will never compare. Comparing either saw to a 441C or 461 is just too much of a reach. If you keep this conversation reasonable, and stick to comparing 60cc saws, then yes, they are very comparable in power to other offerings, after mods.