i was wondering what you guys thought of the choices here to optimize security and pull!
The picture won't load to answer the question here, so it is below.
The picture won't load to answer the question here, so it is below.
Last edited:
Pulling Strategy
- Thread starter TheTreeSpyder
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Picture for Poll
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Going by the diagrams you provided, any of the 4 will work perfectly. The amount of leverage available is 20X more than needed to get the log heading in the right direction. But I prefer using either the 'C' or 'D' setup in order to make it easier to untie the rope and keep the knot from getting buried under the log.
pull poll
Before I can tell anything, how high off the ground is that open faced cut? Are you topping out a tree or dropping a tree from ground level? It makes a difference. Do you want a slow fall or fast? What kind of tree is this? Is your landing zone clear?
If you are on the ground and you want to aim this tree I would warn you to use a different cut, not an open face. The tree may come back at you. An upside down directional cut will be better to aim and with a and with a downward felling cut instead of a level felling cut the tree can not come back at you. As the tree falls it will jump off the stump in the right direction being unable to climb up agianst the downward cut and come back at you.
If you are topping a tree use the top half a directional cut on all four sides and leave a 4"x4" or 6"x6" square in the center and then cut the bottom half of the directional cut in the side you want the tree to fall. DO NOT MAKE A FELLING CUT,at this point you can climb out of the tree and pull on the rope, then pulling the top out. As for your rope I would use two not one because if your truck stalls that tree can land anywhere in the 180 degree arc you set with one rope. The second rope minimizes the arc the tree can swing.
If some one else where there to pull out the top I would use a different cut.
I will recommend you use two ropes or a block and tackle to pull over a tree just to limit where the tree can fall.
You do it your way and I do it mine.You simply do not give enough imformation in your pictures and discription to make a fair decision.
Before I can tell anything, how high off the ground is that open faced cut? Are you topping out a tree or dropping a tree from ground level? It makes a difference. Do you want a slow fall or fast? What kind of tree is this? Is your landing zone clear?
If you are on the ground and you want to aim this tree I would warn you to use a different cut, not an open face. The tree may come back at you. An upside down directional cut will be better to aim and with a and with a downward felling cut instead of a level felling cut the tree can not come back at you. As the tree falls it will jump off the stump in the right direction being unable to climb up agianst the downward cut and come back at you.
If you are topping a tree use the top half a directional cut on all four sides and leave a 4"x4" or 6"x6" square in the center and then cut the bottom half of the directional cut in the side you want the tree to fall. DO NOT MAKE A FELLING CUT,at this point you can climb out of the tree and pull on the rope, then pulling the top out. As for your rope I would use two not one because if your truck stalls that tree can land anywhere in the 180 degree arc you set with one rope. The second rope minimizes the arc the tree can swing.
If some one else where there to pull out the top I would use a different cut.
I will recommend you use two ropes or a block and tackle to pull over a tree just to limit where the tree can fall.
You do it your way and I do it mine.You simply do not give enough imformation in your pictures and discription to make a fair decision.
rbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
It seems to me, geofore, that thou dost complicate matters a bit too much.
The question was well presented, at least for me. I agree with Brian, all pulling scenarios are fine, and overkill compared to wedges. But C and D are better, and D is great, something I never did til a couple years ago.
I've been doing big, and I do mean big, stuff for many years. Both falling logs, straight and leaning, and some whole trees, as well as log lengths from the air. And that is PNW export log lengths, not dinky 12-20 footers.
I use whatever technique is convenient and best for the situation, including the appropriate felling cuts, whcih might be open face, level backcut and face, Humboldt, conventional, or very shallow wedge but in about 50% when I want the log to pop off the stump and rotate less.
But, make an hinge cut, partially set up the backcut, then descend to pull it over----never!!!!
And, as you can tell from this picture, I like rat's nests!! LOL. If you ask nicely, I'll explain what the heck each line is for........uh, well, p'haps....
The question was well presented, at least for me. I agree with Brian, all pulling scenarios are fine, and overkill compared to wedges. But C and D are better, and D is great, something I never did til a couple years ago.
I've been doing big, and I do mean big, stuff for many years. Both falling logs, straight and leaning, and some whole trees, as well as log lengths from the air. And that is PNW export log lengths, not dinky 12-20 footers.
I use whatever technique is convenient and best for the situation, including the appropriate felling cuts, whcih might be open face, level backcut and face, Humboldt, conventional, or very shallow wedge but in about 50% when I want the log to pop off the stump and rotate less.
But, make an hinge cut, partially set up the backcut, then descend to pull it over----never!!!!
And, as you can tell from this picture, I like rat's nests!! LOL. If you ask nicely, I'll explain what the heck each line is for........uh, well, p'haps....
poll pic
There is no back cut, all the cuts are down at 30 -45 degrees and only the directional is cut out in the front. I don't think OSHA would like the drop and pull it over yourself either even if you tie it off. Never had one fail but then I never tried one in a wind storm. It takes a 35 - 45 mph wind to knock it out.
That is a lot of lines, Do you use colour coded lines so you can tell them apart or is your ground crew really good in the memory dept? Did one like that, took nearly four hours to do the set up and the whole thing was down in less than an hour. A crane would have been nice and faster.
Do have to agree D is good.
There is no back cut, all the cuts are down at 30 -45 degrees and only the directional is cut out in the front. I don't think OSHA would like the drop and pull it over yourself either even if you tie it off. Never had one fail but then I never tried one in a wind storm. It takes a 35 - 45 mph wind to knock it out.
That is a lot of lines, Do you use colour coded lines so you can tell them apart or is your ground crew really good in the memory dept? Did one like that, took nearly four hours to do the set up and the whole thing was down in less than an hour. A crane would have been nice and faster.
Do have to agree D is good.
We can go any way with this. But, i was looking at this as a scenario for pre-setting for felling previous to a backcut, with maximum power and security; irregardless of input pulling force.
i see a few things here that i was wondering if others did too.
P.S. Irregardlessly- Well, the last topic i started that led into this, (that i was tiptoeing around) was "re-guarded" by some as 'absurd', so i chose that word rather specifically..............; for it is deemed as unacceptable by the book, but exists in dictionaries and is used by many and powerfully! Though painting in the color of sarcasm, i'm trying to poke fun at myself mostly, as my way of keeping it light around hear................... Glad someone was awake, makes it more fun!
i see a few things here that i was wondering if others did too.
P.S. Irregardlessly- Well, the last topic i started that led into this, (that i was tiptoeing around) was "re-guarded" by some as 'absurd', so i chose that word rather specifically..............; for it is deemed as unacceptable by the book, but exists in dictionaries and is used by many and powerfully! Though painting in the color of sarcasm, i'm trying to poke fun at myself mostly, as my way of keeping it light around hear................... Glad someone was awake, makes it more fun!
Last edited:
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
"irregardless" is not a word. But it IS one of my pet peeves. If yer gonna use big words, at least use big words that exist.
(On my first cup of coffee.....)
(On my first cup of coffee.....)
Dave
ArboristSite Guru
You're all just a bunch of antidisestablishmentarianismists!
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I'm just a jingoist myself.
irregardless
adv : in spite of everything; without regard to drawbacks; "hecarried on regardless of the difficulties" [syn: regardless,irrespective, disregardless, no matter, disregarding]
irregardless
adv : in spite of everything; without regard to drawbacks; "hecarried on regardless of the difficulties" [syn: regardless,irrespective, disregardless, no matter, disregarding]
Rob Murphy
ArboristSite Operative
Geofore I dont mean to be polemic but you said:
"An upside down directional cut will be better to aim and with a and with a downward felling cut instead of a level felling cut the tree can not come back at you."
Are you refering to a sloping backcut? I was wondering what the reasoning was behind this techinque. The problem I see with it is the lack of leverage/lift that you would get if you had to use wedges.It is considered an illegal techinque here in Tassie, inspectors would actually take your Fallers ticket off you for using it.
As for the one man topping out technique.....I am stunned........where did you lean that one?
"An upside down directional cut will be better to aim and with a and with a downward felling cut instead of a level felling cut the tree can not come back at you."
Are you refering to a sloping backcut? I was wondering what the reasoning was behind this techinque. The problem I see with it is the lack of leverage/lift that you would get if you had to use wedges.It is considered an illegal techinque here in Tassie, inspectors would actually take your Fallers ticket off you for using it.
As for the one man topping out technique.....I am stunned........where did you lean that one?
Kevin
Addicted to ArboristSite
Rob, I read between the lines and I think it`s an upside down Conventional face cut which translates to a Humbolt but I wouldn`t hang my rope on it!
Downward felling cuts are Taboo.
Downward felling cuts are Taboo.
Last edited:
cut
The post is to get a reaction and see how many different ways it could be done to avoid what happens next. I have seen fly by night crews doing things and I know some read this B board and will see themselves. I don't feel my post was anymore out of line than pics A or B for pulling a tree down. We need a do not do this Smilie for the bad ideas but also the need for why you don't do this needs to be explained to the new guys before they get into trouble. What happens next is not something that is top of the list on new guys in a hurry.
Yes the safety folks would shut you down if they saw this done and it would save your life. The important thing is to explain why it is wrong, so from time to time you will see me post the absurd. If I say it is absurd when I post it no one finds out why it is wrong. I do expect to get blasted for the post, the reason why you don't do this is responded to.
Who in their right mind works alone??? Who would cut a top half way out and then climb out of the tree to pull the top out ??? Why would you under cut??? I've seen it done by guys that know better. I tell them they should think about what can happen next before they do it. If I post it, it gets a good responce.
I use a block and tackle to pull trees down for more control. To top trees I use the groundies to pull it over and usually tie it off so it can be controled on the way down. I did not live to be this old on luck.
The post is to get a reaction and see how many different ways it could be done to avoid what happens next. I have seen fly by night crews doing things and I know some read this B board and will see themselves. I don't feel my post was anymore out of line than pics A or B for pulling a tree down. We need a do not do this Smilie for the bad ideas but also the need for why you don't do this needs to be explained to the new guys before they get into trouble. What happens next is not something that is top of the list on new guys in a hurry.
Yes the safety folks would shut you down if they saw this done and it would save your life. The important thing is to explain why it is wrong, so from time to time you will see me post the absurd. If I say it is absurd when I post it no one finds out why it is wrong. I do expect to get blasted for the post, the reason why you don't do this is responded to.
Who in their right mind works alone??? Who would cut a top half way out and then climb out of the tree to pull the top out ??? Why would you under cut??? I've seen it done by guys that know better. I tell them they should think about what can happen next before they do it. If I post it, it gets a good responce.
I use a block and tackle to pull trees down for more control. To top trees I use the groundies to pull it over and usually tie it off so it can be controled on the way down. I did not live to be this old on luck.
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
geofore
Thanks for clarifying. I was too stunned when I read your first post to even respond. I figured if you were actually doing all the things you mentioned in your post, nothing I could say would convince you to change.
Removed a 60' laurel oak today, 3' from a house. The trunk was hollow from top to bottom with about 1"-2" of good wood except for where the big holes were. I was able to stick my entire leg inside one hole, even with my size 10 1/2 boots and gaffs on. DBH was about 28".
We gingerly roped 3 limbs from over the house, me in the tree, cut man on the roof, rope man on the ground. Smooth as silk, no jerking on the trunk. Then we ran a running bolen up the handline to the top of the trunk, I came down and pulled out the Flop-O-Matic (Stihl 046 w 28" bar) and dropped the tree between the houses.
$850 before lunch (12:15) with 4 guys, not too bad.
Thanks for clarifying. I was too stunned when I read your first post to even respond. I figured if you were actually doing all the things you mentioned in your post, nothing I could say would convince you to change.
Removed a 60' laurel oak today, 3' from a house. The trunk was hollow from top to bottom with about 1"-2" of good wood except for where the big holes were. I was able to stick my entire leg inside one hole, even with my size 10 1/2 boots and gaffs on. DBH was about 28".
We gingerly roped 3 limbs from over the house, me in the tree, cut man on the roof, rope man on the ground. Smooth as silk, no jerking on the trunk. Then we ran a running bolen up the handline to the top of the trunk, I came down and pulled out the Flop-O-Matic (Stihl 046 w 28" bar) and dropped the tree between the houses.
$850 before lunch (12:15) with 4 guys, not too bad.
Rob Murphy
ArboristSite Operative
Point taken
Kevin
Yes I thought he meant a Humbolt for the face cut , with a sloping backcut (which geofore called a felling cut).
OK Geofore
I gave one reason why a sloping backcut was potentially dangerous .
Are there any other reasons? Any comments anyone?
On the other subject: I sometimes come down inverted, using my feet to control the friction hitch, this I do slowly and only when Iam playing.
Also I have been thinking about getting 2 petzel swivels and set up 2 lines so I can do spins !!!
Just for fun!!!
Kevin
Yes I thought he meant a Humbolt for the face cut , with a sloping backcut (which geofore called a felling cut).
OK Geofore
I gave one reason why a sloping backcut was potentially dangerous .
Are there any other reasons? Any comments anyone?
On the other subject: I sometimes come down inverted, using my feet to control the friction hitch, this I do slowly and only when Iam playing.
Also I have been thinking about getting 2 petzel swivels and set up 2 lines so I can do spins !!!
Just for fun!!!
Last edited:
mikey
ArboristSite Operative
pulling stragety
With the info provided,I agree with treeclimber
With the info provided,I agree with treeclimber
cut
What do you do if it slides off and spikes into the ground then tips back???
Yesterday I warned the guy 8 houses up the street from me to pay up his homeowners ins. . The cherry tree in the lot next to his house is leaning towards his house and the black ants have it hollowed out to about 22' and the croutch is split to the ground. A good wind will set it in motion and with the lean it has it ought to hit the peak of his roof. The tree is tall enough it will land the top on the lot on the other side of his house. Should take out the entire house.The tree was planted in 1910 and the lot owner passed away in 1929 and no one has claimed the lot since. Last time I told someone on my street their tree was about to fall it was 5 days later it fell on the house and it cost the homeowner $4,200 to have it removed and the roof fix was extra.
If all goes right tomorrow I have five trees overhanging a parking lot that were struck by lightning. Not a leaf on them. I should be able to set ropes and blocks without climbing them.
What do you do if it slides off and spikes into the ground then tips back???
Yesterday I warned the guy 8 houses up the street from me to pay up his homeowners ins. . The cherry tree in the lot next to his house is leaning towards his house and the black ants have it hollowed out to about 22' and the croutch is split to the ground. A good wind will set it in motion and with the lean it has it ought to hit the peak of his roof. The tree is tall enough it will land the top on the lot on the other side of his house. Should take out the entire house.The tree was planted in 1910 and the lot owner passed away in 1929 and no one has claimed the lot since. Last time I told someone on my street their tree was about to fall it was 5 days later it fell on the house and it cost the homeowner $4,200 to have it removed and the roof fix was extra.
If all goes right tomorrow I have five trees overhanging a parking lot that were struck by lightning. Not a leaf on them. I should be able to set ropes and blocks without climbing them.
i have been trying to present this idea in diffrent ways for a year or so, so tried this picture deal. i think i see something here, but have not all the proper names to call it out by to be recognized.
i am looking to maximize securty and pull. The reason for maximizing the pull is to bend the spar over slower and more controlled, maximizing the load on the hinge. So, i don't think that it will come straight off and dig ito the ground, the whole idea is to lean it as far as possible (safely) before coming off the stump.
i like lacings that minimize the load on the knot with a wrap or half hitches previous to the knot. Therefore, i drop out choice A).
The leverage is greater the higher the line, and lower the cut, so B) kinda drops out.
But what if we trenched across the top, so that the height of the pull of C),D) was equal to B)? Well i think that there is something in the positioning of C),D) that might make them greater pulls slightly. i'm looking at the cocked back postion that the pull comes from, perhaps putting a more effective pull somehow? And then....... Does that bend want to come out with more pressure? Does it want to open up and 'dump its bucket'? Does this add something extra? If i take a tight line and pull it (sideways like a bowstring)i can get fantastic pressure and sweat it tighter like this on an anchor, can that same effect be werking in a diffrent form here?
But, then a step further i think i see more...........
In defining between C) and D), the reach is diffrent down the spine, could this length make a diffrence?
If i had on a helmet that also braced my neck, and a line came over my head and under bowlined under my arm pits, would there be less action than if it came down and tied at my ankles (ok some of you'se guys are liking this example a lil'too much...........). It seems to me in this example, i can feel the line pushing my head down as it grabbed what it was reaching for (ankles) and tried to pull there. i think it would try to flip me around more, and deliver more 'action' per same pull compared to C). It also seems the angle of the bend (more acute/more pronounced effect) ie. pull closer to tree, bend wants to be straightened more, makes a diffrence.
i witness this i think in that simple example, in dropping spars, and in this self-tourquing rig. pic i made a while back. With this i can make a horizontal spar tighten its own line, and sweep to the side with very little drop if done write. If you make a hinge that faces down at 4'oclock, and leave a long line of fibre ripped at hinge finish, the torque will just spin the limb around. But if you eliminate all but a 'round' spot of holding wood at the top of the hinge face, the limb will flip over in right conditions (as there is no long hinge to leverage against such rotation action). Now, one good flip over, and the head is usuall off the roof; but you might have to trim branches pointing up, so they don't bang anything during the flip. Once the head is off the roof, you should be ok with the green (more soft and forgiving) end heavier, as now the machine action will lift the butt clear off the roof. i more clearly see where the lenght of the line between the bend and knot makes more diffrence.
So it seems to me that the bend wants to come out of the line the more tension that is placed on the line; that it matters in your choice for hitch positioning. i play with it a lot; but it isn't always needed so i must go as i can, trying to gather these things and test them against themselves as the situations arrive. i seek to find these things, tweak them; and compound them altogether. i think the more items i can gather on my side the more i can usher in more discriminating circumstances.
So........... anyone else ever wonder or refute such things?
Am i asking for it or what?
Is Joe out thar? Or does JP have to shake his head alone?
i am looking to maximize securty and pull. The reason for maximizing the pull is to bend the spar over slower and more controlled, maximizing the load on the hinge. So, i don't think that it will come straight off and dig ito the ground, the whole idea is to lean it as far as possible (safely) before coming off the stump.
i like lacings that minimize the load on the knot with a wrap or half hitches previous to the knot. Therefore, i drop out choice A).
The leverage is greater the higher the line, and lower the cut, so B) kinda drops out.
But what if we trenched across the top, so that the height of the pull of C),D) was equal to B)? Well i think that there is something in the positioning of C),D) that might make them greater pulls slightly. i'm looking at the cocked back postion that the pull comes from, perhaps putting a more effective pull somehow? And then....... Does that bend want to come out with more pressure? Does it want to open up and 'dump its bucket'? Does this add something extra? If i take a tight line and pull it (sideways like a bowstring)i can get fantastic pressure and sweat it tighter like this on an anchor, can that same effect be werking in a diffrent form here?
But, then a step further i think i see more...........
In defining between C) and D), the reach is diffrent down the spine, could this length make a diffrence?
If i had on a helmet that also braced my neck, and a line came over my head and under bowlined under my arm pits, would there be less action than if it came down and tied at my ankles (ok some of you'se guys are liking this example a lil'too much...........). It seems to me in this example, i can feel the line pushing my head down as it grabbed what it was reaching for (ankles) and tried to pull there. i think it would try to flip me around more, and deliver more 'action' per same pull compared to C). It also seems the angle of the bend (more acute/more pronounced effect) ie. pull closer to tree, bend wants to be straightened more, makes a diffrence.
i witness this i think in that simple example, in dropping spars, and in this self-tourquing rig. pic i made a while back. With this i can make a horizontal spar tighten its own line, and sweep to the side with very little drop if done write. If you make a hinge that faces down at 4'oclock, and leave a long line of fibre ripped at hinge finish, the torque will just spin the limb around. But if you eliminate all but a 'round' spot of holding wood at the top of the hinge face, the limb will flip over in right conditions (as there is no long hinge to leverage against such rotation action). Now, one good flip over, and the head is usuall off the roof; but you might have to trim branches pointing up, so they don't bang anything during the flip. Once the head is off the roof, you should be ok with the green (more soft and forgiving) end heavier, as now the machine action will lift the butt clear off the roof. i more clearly see where the lenght of the line between the bend and knot makes more diffrence.
So it seems to me that the bend wants to come out of the line the more tension that is placed on the line; that it matters in your choice for hitch positioning. i play with it a lot; but it isn't always needed so i must go as i can, trying to gather these things and test them against themselves as the situations arrive. i seek to find these things, tweak them; and compound them altogether. i think the more items i can gather on my side the more i can usher in more discriminating circumstances.
So........... anyone else ever wonder or refute such things?
Am i asking for it or what?
Is Joe out thar? Or does JP have to shake his head alone?
tree pull
I used the (D) on two of the cherry trees, on a hill, after topping them. It worked but control of direction of fall is touchy on a slope.One up the hill and one down the hill. The trees landed well in the 5' of space between the new trees already planted. I still like two ropes for more control and I told my son if he ever tries this to do it on a tree with more of a landing zone to practice first. We used block and tackle on the others. With a bigger landing zone this is less work than block and tackle but in a tight spot I would use two lines or the block and tackle.
We had folks watching, I know they were there to see a screw up but there were none. We got four requests to do other trees from the onlookers so I'll be out looking at other jobs. Yes, I got that question," How much to cut my tree?". Sight unseen I don't have a clue, I have to see the tree first. The only place I've seen a flat rate offered is in the Penny Saver and I doubt the guy's able to do any tree for one price.
I used the (D) on two of the cherry trees, on a hill, after topping them. It worked but control of direction of fall is touchy on a slope.One up the hill and one down the hill. The trees landed well in the 5' of space between the new trees already planted. I still like two ropes for more control and I told my son if he ever tries this to do it on a tree with more of a landing zone to practice first. We used block and tackle on the others. With a bigger landing zone this is less work than block and tackle but in a tight spot I would use two lines or the block and tackle.
We had folks watching, I know they were there to see a screw up but there were none. We got four requests to do other trees from the onlookers so I'll be out looking at other jobs. Yes, I got that question," How much to cut my tree?". Sight unseen I don't have a clue, I have to see the tree first. The only place I've seen a flat rate offered is in the Penny Saver and I doubt the guy's able to do any tree for one price.
Similar threads
