Almost got crushed by my flipline

[treemandan]

The bottom line here is never have your lanyard around a large horizontal piece you are cutting. #### just happens sometimes and when it does you are much better off if your life support is elsewhere. Even if you had to perch on a limb with overhead support and were to take a swing if you lost your balance you'd be better off than being a part of what went wrong. Don't overlook the fact that often a ground worker can hold the tail of the climber's rope keeping it out of the drop zone and at the same time aid in positioning and minimizing climber swing if it comes down to it. Sometimes when 'bombing out' lots of big wood I'll have the tail of my climbing line in a rope bag on my hip just so I can stay entirely above the 'happenings'.

Is that a rule? I didn't know. Personally I feel comfortable strapping in to a limb like that and letting her rip... I mean jump... or whatever. Its a bit of work getting a good undercut in but by the time its done I have good results.
Also, if you have a solid tip then you can wrap the lanyard around a little sucker or twig to help keep you in good postion. You do have to be in good postion to set a good undercut on a limb like that without getting the saw stuck. Every once in a while I get it stuck, I just get another 20.
The one time I got squuzed was from a mishap on a pole. And Yeah, it would have ripped my scrawny ass in half if the cards weren't played as they were. It hurt a little and it actually compacted the turds in my intestines.

Now the jump and snap are not the same cut. Perhaps you could post a good example pic TreeCo? Your good at that kind of stuff.

I will try to explain:

the snap is best used on verticle poles. You make a shallow face cut, don't go deeper than the bar. The backcut is above the face cut and when it starts to close jam a piece of bark in there to hold it open and continue to cut ( but not all the way through) until you know you can put the saw down and snap the thing off easily and drop it where you want it. No need to to hold it with your hand as you cut, keep them both on the saw.

The jump is best for horizontal limbs, you make the deepest facecut you can without sticking the bar. You can widen the kerf of the facecut as you cut deeper into it. You have to be fast getting the saw out, you have to have complete control. Doing it with a 20 you can use one hand without fear of harm. Same with the backcut BUT position is everything. Once the facecut is set the backcut is made a few inches below/behind the facecut. You don't want to have yer face to close when it goes off. Done right the limb will jump like a fish upwards then the butt will fall like stone.

These two cuts used at the proper time and done right will eliminate getting yer #### packed in... and that is something no man wants to admit have happen.:msp_crying:

 

[tree md]

This is one scenario where I normally will not abide by the two attachment points while making a cut rule. Actually, I don't like dropping large, whole limbs like that anymore period. I used to do it and have had a couple nearly come back and bite me... And one that did. It is usually faster for the overall operation to just walk out and cut the limb in manageable pieces for the guys on the ground. Saves work on the ground and keeps them from having to cut pieces on the ground where a large chain is more likely to become dulled.

I will not tie into a large lateral when making a cut anymore. I'm talking about on a huge limb, of course I will use my lanyard for positioning when I have to get way out there on one. I always get above the cut and just lean out on my climbing line. I am of the belief that it is safer to only use one tie in in this situation than tying in to the piece you are cutting. I wish I could still find the OSHA fatality report of the guy who was tied into a big Oak limb that split all the way behind him, taking him down with it as it went. He was also tied in with a climb line above but the weight from the limb was just too much for the line and it snapped, sending him to the driveway below still tied to the limb.

Glad to hear you were not seriously injured. Stay safe.

 

[NCTREE]

The bottom line here is never have your lanyard around a large horizontal piece you are cutting. #### just happens sometimes and when it does you are much better off if your life support is elsewhere.

It did that on a cut one time working for Dan and he gave me a little #### for it. I felt safer not being tied in, better to get out of the way if it didn't go the way it was suppose to. I guess every situation is different and thats where the more experience you have the better to predict whats gonna happen.

 

[chad556]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I have to say that I have learned a lot just by reading other peoples' experiences (which is really what I think this forum is all about) Safety does come with experience that makes perfect sense so thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

I snapped a couple photos today of the tree and the branch that almost ended me, and then I promptly dropped that SOB. I would have done that from the start but that branch had to go before it could be dropped and I figured once I was up that far why not finish it right. Just for a point of reference the piece I dropped was at least twice as big as the little branch right by the tear

You can see the hinge did almost work, it closed anyway. I got slammed in a way that my chin was right where the back cut was. After I caught my breath and before i came down I made that last cut to finish off the tear and drop the branch to the ground. I didn't want to descend just to have the branch come loose and finish me off.

 

[treemandan]

It was just a standard notch, not too wide, about 45 degrees. Looking at it from the ground it was way too small also, only about a quarter of the way in. And the back cut was aimed to be straight into the apex of the notch. Somehow it ended up 4" up the branch, just one of those things I guess, mistakes happen. You can bet I will take the extra second to double check from now on though.

BTW what exactly is a jump?

I hope I explained the jump and snap cuts well enough BUT it does sound like your notch was way to big. Just take out a little sliver of a notch in a situation like this. 45's are for felling on the ground, generally not needed or advised while in the tree.
I would say a notch about an inch wide would have been better but you still need to aim the backcut with more precision than you did and that is what seems to be the cause of this accident.

 

[treemandan]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I have to say that I have learned a lot just by reading other peoples' experiences (which is really what I think this forum is all about) Safety does come with experience that makes perfect sense so thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

I snapped a couple photos today of the tree and the branch that almost ended me, and then I promptly dropped that SOB. I would have done that from the start but that branch had to go before it could be dropped and I figured once I was up that far why not finish it right. Just for a point of reference the piece I dropped was at least twice as big as the little branch right by the tear

You can see the hinge did almost work, it closed anyway. I got slammed in a way that my chin was right where the back cut was. After I caught my breath and before i came down I made that last cut to finish off the tear and drop the branch to the ground. I didn't want to descend just to have the branch come loose and finish me off.

Simply put: you peeled a limb onto you lanyard. That can't happen again of course but no matter how you try one day you will unintentionally peel another branch. That is a matter of fact.
A lot of people say not to use the lanyard in these situations are there are some situation where you shouldn't use your lanyard but they are few and far between. The lanyard holds you in position so you can control the cut. Without it you have to compensate and that could mean you have to overcompansate which isn't good because you are adding risk.
What you need to do is protect your lanyard at every cut. It looks like you could have found a good cutting position and secured your nessasary lanyard to the little limb to the right of the peel where everything would have been fine even with the way things went.
That is the key, use the lanyard, just keep it protected.


Also if you are out there like that making a cut and believe that by not using your lanyard you are being safer weel... YER NOT! Sure, you won't be peeling a limb onto your lanyard but one day you will slip midcut, fall into your saw and go careening back towards the trunk and get slammed just as bad. Why choose either? There are a million ways to set your lanyard that will keep it protected, be creative.

 

[squad143]

Were you using the top rope as well? Does everyone here always double tie in when cutting? I personally don't. In that instance he was less safe than being just tied in on his top rope. In the past I had a boss that always wanted you to be double tied in when running the saw, I never really agreed that it's always the safest way.

I almost always use two tie-in points. It is always nice to have a back up in case "stuff" happens.

I believe his TIP was in the other tree, therefore he would need something to stop him from swinging back to his tie in point. In this case, I believe his flipline was wrapped around the branch he was cutting to support his weight and stop him from swinging back.

If possible, a tie-in point (or another) in the tree he was taking the limb from, would have been safer. Red arrow in pic below shows possible TIP.

This extra TIP would have given him the benefit of better work positioning (no need to be tied into the branch he was cutting). Although it would take more time to set this up, this would have afforded him to work above and away from his cut. (Perhaps even limb walk out).

Usually an accident is a combination of errors.

Thanks Chad566 for sharing this with us. It takes courage to show your mistakes so others may learn from your "experience".

Glad your still with us.:msp_thumbup:

 

[treemandan]

I am trying to get the guys to show me a little climbing soon and this is definitely a scenario I am happy to know to avoid!:msp_thumbup:

Not for nothing dude but when newbies go around naming themselves experts is kinda insulting... and a little confusing. Basically false advertisment.

Oh Lord, I will probably get into trouble saying that... but I did anyway.

 

[treemandan]

.....a little confusing?


......How about a fellow named Ben going by the user name Treemandan!

dan (plural dans)

1.A rank of black belt in martial arts
2.Someone who has achieved a level of black belt

I ain't no newbie and you need to check the diagonal Luv ya!

 

[treemandan]

TreeXpertatlanta.com My employer.. I just managed to snag a cool sn on here:jester:

Thanks for clearing that up, you can certainly understand my concern.

 

[lego1970]

This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it.

When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride.

On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.

On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.

 

[treemandan]

This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it.

When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride.

On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.

On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.

Some good techiques there.

 

[squad143]

Expert:

Ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. :msp_biggrin:

 

[chad556]

This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it.

When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride.

On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.

On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.

Using one end as a choker you mean you wrap the lanyard around the limb and and then attach the snap back to the rope? I kind of like that idea the worst that could happen is your lanyard gets destroyed and you get a nasty jolt, much better than getting squeezed. Thanks for the advice!

 

[lego1970]

Some good techiques there.

Thanks.

 

[lego1970]

Using one end as a choker you mean you wrap the lanyard around the limb and and then attach the snap back to the rope? I kind of like that idea the worst that could happen is your lanyard gets destroyed and you get a nasty jolt, much better than getting squeezed. Thanks for the advice!

Yes, that's how I do it. Hope your bruises are getting better and thanks for posting this. It's how we learn.

 

[chad556]

Today was my first climb since the accident and I tried out some of the new techniques I learned. I was very paranoid about peeling another branch but I kept my lanyard out of harms way when I could. The tree was a black walnut I think, I'm not great at twig ID. I even snapped some more pics (gotta have something to do up there while my guys screw around on the ground). Here is my first trial of the choker lanyard technique, pretty slick I must say.

And here is my setup for removals. I would say 95% of the time I maintain 3 points of connection (even when working my way down I keep my climbing line around near my feet just in case both my fliplines fail). It just feels more secure that way, I don't know if its right or wrong or complete overkill. Anyway, were all still learning a thing or too here so comments and criticism are welcome:

P.s. I know my blue carabiner is cross-loaded, I fixed it before putting my weight on it though dont worry.

 

[mpatch]

holy way too much crap on that saddle

and btw side loading a aluminum rope snap is a terrible idea and no hardhat for the groundie, two lanyards is overkill and useless in most situations, lanyard same color as climbing line is a bad idea, if you want a steel core get a maxiflip or something not crimped like the one you have, put the rope grabs facing down not up

 

[mpatch]

holy way too much crap on that saddle

and btw side loading a aluminum rope snap is a terrible idea and no hardhat for the groundie, two lanyards is overkill and useless in most situations, lanyard same color as climbing line is a bad idea, if you want a steel core get a maxiflip or something not crimped like the one you have, put the rope grabs facing down not up

and most of all you will never be a "good" climber or tree person until you learn to trust your gear and know what it can/should do and can't/shouldn't do

and try some pole gaffs

 

[lync]

Glad your ok. My opinion switchout the rope grabs for a vt lanyard adjuster. It can be released under tension If you choke the limb and it splits, your snap will ride up and release the vt also move the lanyard adjuster to your bride, and off your hip this will take your body out of the loop