Another cord thread...MN legal definition...arrgh

[Whitespider]

I don’t see any “flaws” in quantifying wood by volume, but I see huge “flaws” in quantifying by weight. The thing is, wood is used for thousands of purposes, and the vast majority is not used as heating fuel. Wood fluctuates in weight constantly as it ages and as the ambient humidity changes… set a pile of 2x4’s in Arizona for a year and its gonna’ weigh a whole lot less than if it was sitting in Georgia. And there just flat ain’t any way to conveniently, accurately, quickly and consistently measure the moisture content of wood… because the vast majority of moisture is in the center of the wood. If you take a cubic inch from the center of a piece of firewood, and a cubic inch from the outside of a piece of firewood they will have different moisture contents. It would be impossible to weigh wood, and then deduct for moisture, because the moisture content is not consistent throughout the entire piece. Larger pieces would contain more moisture per cubic inch than smaller pieces, and denser pieces (like from the base of the tree) would have a higher moisture content than limb wood. Using weight to quantify wood just isn’t workable… just flat-out ain’t workable.

Even the argument that corn is bought and sold by weight is incorrect; Corn is bought and sold by the bushel, a unit of volume. A bushel is 1.2445 cubic feet… it does not matter how much that bushel of corn weighs (how much moisture it contains), it is still a bushel of corn. Weight is only used to determine how many bushels (cubic feet) are in a given load of corn, and moisture content is used to adjust the price (because of the cost of drying it). No different than a volume of firewood can be bought cheaper green than seasoned. Using weight and moisture content of corn to determine volume works because the density and moisture content of a kernel of corn is relatively constant within a load… the same can’t be said for pieces of wood, even if all the pieces came from the same tree.

And the argument that a cord of pine isn't the same as a cord of oak doesn't support your "weight" idea. A cord of pine is worth less than a cord of oak, just as 2x4 of pine is worth less per board foot than a 2x4 of oak. Near anything bought and sold by volume has the price set by what it is and/or by what the quality is. Volume is only the amount, measured in three dimensions, it has absolutely nothing to do with value... value is determined by what that volume contains.

So… If I go to the lumber yard and buy a nice load of Walnut boards to build my wife some new kitchen cupboards, how would they measure each board for moisture content without destroying them? After all, they would have to measure each board because the ones on top of the stack would not have the same moisture content as those in the middle of the stack. The answer is they can’t! There just flat ain’t any way to do it… better to sell the lumber (wood) by the board foot (volume) rather than by weight.

 

[ray benson]

I will use cord or cubic meters of wood if they want to go metric.
Convert cubic meter to cord - Conversion of Measurement Units[firewood]

I am not going to weigh my wood and take moisture reading to determine if I have enough wood for the year. That is absurd. Using cord I only need a tape measure.

 

[les-or-more]

I don’t see any “flaws” in quantifying wood by volume, but I see huge “flaws” in quantifying by weight. The thing is, wood is used for thousands of purposes, and the vast majority is not used as heating fuel. Wood fluctuates in weight constantly as it ages and as the ambient humidity changes… set a pile of 2x4’s in Arizona for a year and its gonna’ weigh a whole lot less than if it was sitting in Georgia. And there just flat ain’t any way to conveniently, accurately, quickly and consistently measure the moisture content of wood… because the vast majority of moisture is in the center of the wood. If you take a cubic inch from the center of a piece of firewood, and a cubic inch from the outside of a piece of firewood they will have different moisture contents. It would be impossible to weigh wood, and then deduct for moisture, because the moisture content is not consistent throughout the entire piece. Larger pieces would contain more moisture per cubic inch than smaller pieces, and denser pieces (like from the base of the tree) would have a higher moisture content than limb wood. Using weight to quantify wood just isn’t workable… just flat-out ain’t workable.

Even the argument that corn is bought and sold by weight is incorrect; Corn is bought and sold by the bushel, a unit of volume. A bushel is 1.2445 cubic feet… it does not matter how much that bushel of corn weighs (how much moisture it contains), it is still a bushel of corn. Weight is only used to determine how many bushels (cubic feet) are in a given load of corn, and moisture content is used to adjust the price (because of the cost of drying it). No different than a volume of firewood can be bought cheaper green than seasoned. Using weight and moisture content of corn to determine volume works because the density and moisture content of a kernel of corn is relatively constant within a load… the same can’t be said for pieces of wood, even if all the pieces came from the same tree.

And the argument that a cord of pine isn't the same as a cord of oak doesn't support your "weight" idea. A cord of pine is worth less than a cord of oak, just as 2x4 of pine is worth less per board foot than a 2x4 of oak. Near anything bought and sold by volume has the price set by what it is and/or by what the quality is. Volume is only the amount, measured in three dimensions, it has absolutely nothing to do with value... value is determined by what that volume contains.

So… If I go to the lumber yard and buy a nice load of Walnut boards to build my wife some new kitchen cupboards, how would they measure each board for moisture content without destroying them? After all, they would have to measure each board because the ones on top of the stack would not have the same moisture content as those in the middle of the stack. The answer is they can’t! There just flat ain’t any way to do it… better to sell the lumber (wood) by the board foot (volume) rather than by weight.

Sorry, but corn is sold by the bushel and it is a unit of weight that equals 56lb if its dry and shelled. Living in Iowa you might want to check into the diverse ways corn is used. If weight is flat out unworkable how is the mill in post 23 doing it?

 

[Dalmatian90]

I weight is flat out unworkable how is the mill in post 23 doing it?

The same way the grain elevators do --

You have a few customers and a few buyers in the middle of the supply chain with the size to make commodization practical by carefully measuring the goods they are trading.

Do you think Joe Homeowner buying 2 cords per year of wood is going to have the training, experience, tools, patience, time, and money to test a load of wood he's buying to determine a fair price for it? Because it's the mill in post 23 you reference that is doing all that, not the folks selling to the mill.

It's not like the farmers show up to the elevator and the conversation goes, "Hi Joe, what's your moisture percentage today?" "Why it's 16.5% on the nose!" "Excellent! Glad to hear that! How many tons?" "Guess I'm a bit overloaded today, it's 41-1/2 tons." "Cool. Well we'll be whipping you off a check this afternoon for 41-1/2 tons @ 16.5%, you can go unload now."

Rather, it's the elevator that test and weighs what they are buying -- not the seller (though the sellers may do so themselves if they want to make sure the elevators are honest).

Since sellers can't be trusted in a many-to-many market, and buyers do not have the ability to economically evaluate to scientific criteria what they're buying in a many-to-many market, your other option is a third party certification where on the way to deliver wood you'd have to go over a public scale to get a certified weight AND go through a sampling process to determine moisture and BTU density AND have the truck then sealed so the buyer know the seller hasn't lightened the load since it was certified.

That's not practical.

So we buy wood by volume and factors we can judge by eye like species...because it is practical and economical in the firewood market to do so.

 

[Whitespider]

Sorry, but corn is sold by the bushel and it is a unit of weight that equals 56lb if its dry and shelled.

That is just flat incorrect.

Yes, a bushel of corn, at 15.5% moisture content, weighs 56 lbs. Yes, the corn is weighed and tested for moisture content, and then the price is adjusted to bushels, at 15.5% moisture content (with any applicable penalties for moisture). They may pay you by the ton after all the math… but the price is set by the bushel, a measurement of volume.

If you have a grain bin 20 ft in diameter x 40 ft tall, it has a capacity of 12,568 cubic feet, or 11,000 bushels. Fill it full of corn and you have 11,000 bushels of corn… doesn’t matter how much it weighs or how much moisture it contains; it is still 11,000 bushels of corn. The moisture content (weight) does not change the quantity; it only changes the value of the quantity.

 

[les-or-more]

That is just flat incorrect.

Yes, a bushel of corn, at 15.5% moisture content, weighs 56 lbs. Yes, the corn is weighed and tested for moisture content, and then the price is adjusted to bushels, at 15.5% moisture content (with any applicable penalties for moisture). They may pay you by the ton after all the math… but the price is set by the bushel, a measurement of volume.

If you have a grain bin 20 ft in diameter x 40 ft tall, it has a capacity of 12,568 cubic feet, or 11,000 bushels. Fill it full of corn and you have 11,000 bushels of corn… doesn’t matter how much it weighs or how much moisture it contains; it is still 11,000 bushels of corn. The moisture content (weight) does not change the quantity; it only changes the value of the quantity.

So you think they measure the truck to see how many bushels it holds and pay on the volume? No they weigh the truck in pounds, check the m oisture, then convert to a 56# bushel, look it up. The penalties come into play if the corn has to be dried the elevator isn't going to buy water any more than farmers or processors buying from the elevator are. Its been standardized for that reason so every one is using the same set of rules.

 

[les-or-more]

The same way the grain elevators do --

You have a few customers and a few buyers in the middle of the supply chain with the size to make commodization practical by carefully measuring the goods they are trading.

Do you think Joe Homeowner buying 2 cords per year of wood is going to have the training, experience, tools, patience, time, and money to test a load of wood he's buying to determine a fair price for it? Because it's the mill in post 23 you reference that is doing all that, not the folks selling to the mill.

It's not like the farmers show up to the elevator and the conversation goes, "Hi Joe, what's your moisture percentage today?" "Why it's 16.5% on the nose!" "Excellent! Glad to hear that! How many tons?" "Guess I'm a bit overloaded today, it's 41-1/2 tons." "Cool. Well we'll be whipping you off a check this afternoon for 41-1/2 tons @ 16.5%, you can go unload now."

Rather, it's the elevator that test and weighs what they are buying -- not the seller (though the sellers may do so themselves if they want to make sure the elevators are honest).

Since sellers can't be trusted in a many-to-many market, and buyers do not have the ability to economically evaluate to scientific criteria what they're buying in a many-to-many market, your other option is a third party certification where on the way to deliver wood you'd have to go over a public scale to get a certified weight AND go through a sampling process to determine moisture and BTU density AND have the truck then sealed so the buyer know the seller hasn't lightened the load since it was certified.

That's not practical.

So we buy wood by volume and factors we can judge by eye like species...because it is practical and economical in the firewood market to do so.

I would say the people selling to that mill have some way of knowing what the moisture is they aren't going to truck wood in to have the mill reject the load. The mill is going to check because they want to buy wood not water or air, just smart from a business stand point.Hundreds of thousands of tons of grain are sold between individuals every year its not rocket science to weigh a load and determine the moisture.

 

[turnkey4099]

So you think they measure the truck to see how many bushels it holds and pay on the volume? No they weigh the truck in pounds, check the m oisture, then convert to a 56# bushel, look it up. The penalties come into play if the corn has to be dried the elevator isn't going to buy water any more than farmers or processors buying from the elevator are. Its been standardized for that reason so every one is using the same set of rules.

Why are you not ranting at the definition of a gallon? Of a pound?, etc.? None of them address anything but the physical size of the measure. What is in the container is taken care of by the label which is also specified in a separate section of the law.

You lost this discussion way back. That is why I still think you are jusst trolling. Even a 8 yoa farm kid has a firm concept of a cord and what it addresses. Volume ONLY and nothing more. Noone even wants it to be anything more as that would be treading on definitions in other sections of labeling law. I you are incapable of understanding what the seller has in that 2 cord pile perhaps you shouldn't be in any part of the firewooding business.

Again. "cord" is a volume definiton. Nothing less, nothing more and your comments about face cords, etc. is in error as none of those fake measures define a set volume. If you want to know more of what that cord contains, you either look at the label or ask the seller.

Harry K

 

[Whitespider]

les-or-more,
Your ignorance is showing. My back yard is a corn field and you’re telling me to look it up… what a laugh! A bushel of corn will only weigh 56 lbs if the moisture content is 15.5%, if the moisture content is 30% it will weigh more…….. BUT IT IS STILL A BUSHEL OF CORN! Believe what ever you’re comfortable with, but weight and moisture content is used strictly to determine the value of the bushel… you fool.

 

[les-or-more]

Bushel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Whitespider]

Wikipedia is your source of information? Something that can be entered and edited by anyone at anytime?
Now I’ve had two good laughs for the day….

 

[les-or-more]

U.S. Commercial Bushel Sizes

 

[Whitespider]

Ok... fine... you win.
I don't see the sense in going around the circle again.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Ok... fine... you win.
I don't see the sense in going around the circle again.

...and to think I thought the only good thing that came out of Iowa was 35W. I support Iowa in all she does...just think if she got a pro sports team...Mn. would want one too. Talking about sports...why are our beloved Mn. Viking wearing purple...you'd be purple too if you choked for 30 years.

Seriously...I'll pay $125 a cord this year. I'll have a different wood guy too as my old one retired. The differences in each of their cords will vary some. Am I gonna count sticks...hardly. It's peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
In my mind if I can heat with wood and get a burn time so that I'm basically only loading in the a.m. & the p.m. I could care what kind of wood I'm burning.
About the only thing I'm not bending on is .....wet wood. Just can't go there.

 

[turnkey4099]

Ok... fine... you win.
I don't see the sense in going around the circle again.

Good idea. You can't win when talking to a troll.

He cannot seem to wrap his mind around a bushel of corn standardized at x lbs so it can be easily measured WITH DOCKAGE FOR TOO MUCH MOISTURE. A 500 bushel load (volume measure) dumped at too much moistue will be logged in at less than 500 bushels after dockage. Simple concept but it is too simple for him. I wonder why he thinks the elevator guy takes a sample out of each load coming in.

Harry K

 

[KsWoodsMan]

One reason the volume measurement of " cord" works so well for FIREWOOD is it is easily measured. Quality and species can be visually inspected. The buyer has the opportunity to inspect/reject it as it comes off the load or goes on their truck.

Weight would only work for a large pulp wood buyer. They have the resources to weigh the load ,determine species and take MC readings. From there they can calculate the expected yield from said load of logs and pay accordingly. This isn't the pulp wood buying and selling forum this is The Firewood, Heating and Wood Burning Equipment forum.

There are tables available to show the weight/BTU of different species of wood at varying MC from green to 10% - 20% MC. It might not be an exact weight per volume but as the OP has shown even variance of actual volume is close enough for government work. I see the humor in that. That some state hs spent money for a study concerning the shinkage/growth of a pile of wood from start to almost finished. There was no mention of how wood shrinks as it dries only as it is processed from log form to firewood stacks/piles. They could have just asked us. We'd have told them more than they needed to know and had them buying 80 cc saws before they got away.

Not that it matters but I vote to stay with the current method of measuring firewood, by the cord or cubic foot. If there are any doubts, Wood cutter/buyes/sellers can measure a stack with a tape and visually inspect its fitness for use. I can do a fair job of determining species to have some idea of the BTU stored. This method of measurement works. It has worked and will continue to work. Lets not turn this into the Metrics conversion of the 70's.

The only person to give a rats petuite about how much it weighs is the DOT man. He writes his ticket by the pound.