Another splitter build.... Hydraulic questions

[DMF]

Hey guys,
I am building a splitter conveyor combo and I need some help on the hydrualic requirements. I have an 11 HP Honda hydrualic unit that was used to power a car trailer. It has, what I believe, is a 16 GPM single stage pump. I know I should change this out to a two stage. I have a 4 1/2" x 24 cylinder and a Char-Lynn 101-1033 hydraulic motor that I plan to power the conveyor with. The conveyor will be bely driven via a pulley on the hydraulic motor figuring that if a chunk of wood got hung up I'd rather the belt slip vs. self destructing. I would also like to add a small cylinder to position an adjustable 4 way wedge.
I'm wondering the following:
1. What size 2 stage pump should I get
2. How to plumb all of it. Do I run through the hydraulic motor first, then to my valves? The conveyor will of course be turning all the time, but the other two valves would never be operating at the same time.
Help please?
Thanks!

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Use 2 pumps, one for the splitter, one for conveyor.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

....an 11 HP Honda hydrualic unit...

11 hp possible on aregular fixed displacement pump is great for the conveyor system, but not in combination with a log splitter. You gave the answer your self, and as ValleyFirewwod stated, you need to run the conveyor on its own pump.

The conveyor will of course be turning all the time, but the other two valves would never be operating at the same time.

Now we need to know how much power that conveyor takes. If it uses a maximum of 2-3Hp, you will have 7-8 Hp that could be used for a secondary 2-stage splitter pump. But then you will have a problem to solve, connecting that extra pump the engine. It can be done in a few different ways. Gear box with double PTO, double belt drives etc.
On a bigger, 50-100+ hp applications, multiple hydraulic actuators are best run off a variable displacement pump that delivers a constant pressure, and flow on demand. But thats not an option in your case.
I would think you are best off, if you buy another "2-3" hp power unit for the coneyor, and use the 16gpm pump unit for the splitter.

The conveyor will be bely driven via a pulley on the hydraulic motor figuring that if a chunk of wood got hung up I'd rather the belt slip vs. self destructing.

Skip the extras with belt pulleys, and just use aa adjustable pressure relief valve upstream the CharLynn motor

I would also like to add a small cylinder to position an adjustable 4 way wedge.

Just get a 2 or 3-spool control valve, for the small extras on the splitter

1. What size 2 stage pump should I get

An 11hp power unit can run a 22gpm 2-atge pump at 2500psi low stage and 800-900 psi on High stage

2. How to plumb all of it. Do I run through the hydraulic motor first, then to my valves? The conveyor will of course be turning all the time, but the other two valves would never be operating at the same time.

N/A

 

[muddstopper]

I would guess that if your engine is a 11hp, most likely the single stage pump is only 5-6gpm unless it is only rated for 1000psi system pressure. To pull 16gpm at 3000psi it would take about a 31hp motor.

If you are wanting to power your 4.5in bore splitter cylinder, and want some measure of speed, you will most likely want to swap out your single stage pump for a 2 stage one. Your motor will pull a 16gpm pump easy, and a 22gpm with some effort.The problem with running your conveyor with a single 2 stage pumps is

1. Whenever you use the splitter you will rob all of the oil from the conveyor, slowing it way down or causing it to stop
2. The pump only pumps high flow under low pressure and low flow under high pressure. This will make your conveyor very erratic going from a almost stop to slinging the wood off the end.

You have a few options to make the most use of your current setup. I assume the current pump is mounted to the tail shaft of the engine. If this is the case, it might be possible to simply remove the old pump and install a new one. Bolt pattern and shaft size might be the same. If your current pump is indeed a small size as i suspect, it would work well for pulling your conveyor by itself. Here a lot depends on the type of pump you have but, you can purchase a stubshaft for the front of the honda engine and mount your old pump on the front instead of the tail shaft, but it will be turning the pump in the wrong direction. Depending on the pump, it can be taken apart and the center section simply turned around and reassembled making it a CCW pump. This is usually pretty easy and just involves taking the bolts out of the rear of the pump housing, seperating the sections and turning the middle section around and putting the pump back together, and some pumps dont work that way so do your research before disassembling a perfectly good pump. If your pump can be converted from CW to CCW, you are in business pretty cheap.

If you cant convert your current pump from CW to CCW, you have two options, both involve buying another pump

1. Buy a CCW pump and mount to front of your engine as already described, or
2. Buy the front section of a CW double pump. If you go this route, make sure your 2 stage pump is the correct shaft size and bolt pattern to bolt to the back of the new pump.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

One of my friends owned a Multitec processor for a while. Aside from it being very underbuilt for use on birch (which isn't really hard to split) it had a single pump. Conveyor would either shoot rounds over the truck or barely move depending on what the splitter and saw where doing.

The conveyor won't need much flow as you want to be pretty low rpm.... depending on the length of conveyor and all.

I've never measured what mine runs at, maybe 100-150rpm. It takes a good 30 seconds for the conveyor to make a full loop around and it's only 20ft long.


As far as using the motor and pump, it could work, though it would be pretty slow. I'm not up to doing the math right now, but probably looking at a 12-15 second cycle time, depending on the size of the rod.
Hard to really say without knowing your end goal I guess. If I was in your boat, I'd look at at 20ish hp diesel (or gas, but diesel would be way more fuel friendly). I actually have 2 of them here, too bad your not closer, I'd cut you a deal.

My processor is either 30 or 35hp, 4 cylinder Kubota if that helps any. The splitter uses a ~30gpm pump and the other stuff is I think a 12 or 15gpm. I'm not exactly sure because it's sized in displacement, not gpm.

 

[blades]

Maybe just get the Harbor freight 6hp gas engine for the conveyer dang things are cheap enough - makes things simple - I am a fan of Kiss systems - the extra hose valve sections, possibility of another pump ect- cost starts climbing fairly high. A lawn tractor with a blown or bad tranny can net you a 18-20 hp gas eng. for a couple c notes or less - tons of them around by the same token one of the older gear types with a working tranny& eng could get you variable speed on the conveyor ( which really isn't needed) Just an old backyard mech musing.

 

[muddstopper]

I think you will be very disappointed if you use your current pump for a splitter. If the pump is indeed a 16gpm pump with your current engine size you are only going to be able to get about 8 tons of splitting force before the engine shuts off and forget adding a 4way wedge. If the pump is only 5-6 gpm as I suspect, your cycle times are going to be around 30 sec per split. Neither option would satisfy my splitting requirements.

On the other hand, if your current pump is indeed only a 5-6gpm as i suspect, then it would be ideal to run the conveyor. The conveyor shouldnt need a lot of pressure and you can use a adjustable flow control to adjust the conveyor speed.

I am not a fan of needing 2 seperate engines to run a single piece of machinery, unless part of the machine is meant to be used as a stand alone unit. ex. You could detach the conveyor from the splitter for use to load a truck or trailer, etc. In this ex, the second power supply would make perfectly good sense. As two operations meant to be used in conjunction with each other, you most likely wouldnt need the conveyor if the splitter power stopped functioning, and while you might be able to split without the conveyor running, it would certainly be in the way of the splits coming off the splitter. To my thinking, if you are going to have a splitter and conveyor tied together, a single power source for both functions would be the best option. With your current engine hp you are going to endup buying a splitter pump with ether method you choose to power your machine. Using a seperate engine to power the splitter or conveyor will also mean needing another hydraulic tank, control valves, filters, extra hoses, All of which will add cost to your build.

If you do decide to use a second engine to power you machine, I suggest you dedicate your current engine and pump combo to powering your conveyor and find a used mower engine of larger hp and buy the 22gpm 2 stage pump for the splitter. I am baseing this suggestion on my assumption that your current pump is really only 6gpm and not the 16gpm that you think it might be. The current engine pump size is more than adequate to power the conveyor as well as to maybe add a log lift, which I think you will also find handy, as well as free up power for the additional 4way wedge.

With all that said, I still think i would look into whether your current pump can be converted from CW to CCW and get a stub shaft for mounting it to the front of your current engine, ( I saw one on ebay for $86) and then buying a 16gpm 2stage pump to mount on your current engine tail shaft.

 

[blades]

Wasn't thinking hydro drive on conveyor. chain or belt not a lot of stress there.

 

[muddstopper]

Wasn't thinking hydro drive on conveyor. chain or belt not a lot of stress there.

He already has the hydraulic motor for the conveyor, using hydraulics with a flow control is about the easiest way to control the speed of the conveyor. I am just going to guess he will also be using a gear reduction box to reduce the speed and give it a little torque at the belt. He has only posted once and it doesnt look like he's been back.

 

[DMF]

Well, my father-in-law is trying to convince me to use a small gas motor for the conveyor for now. It makes sense to use it as a stand alone unit for now. I am going to investigate the pump a little better. If it's single stage and I swap it out for a 2 stage, should I get a 22 GPM knowing it's a little big for the 11 HP for now and it'll be the size I need when I end up re-powering the unit, or should I just go to a 16 GPM and figure on having to replace both the engine and pump when I upgrade?
Thanks!

 

[AKKAMAAN]

Well, my father-in-law is trying to convince me to use a small gas motor for the conveyor for now. It makes sense to use it as a stand alone unit for now. I am going to investigate the pump a little better. If it's single stage and I swap it out for a 2 stage, should I get a 22 GPM knowing it's a little big for the 11 HP for now and it'll be the size I need when I end up re-powering the unit, or should I just go to a 16 GPM and figure on having to replace both the engine and pump when I upgrade?
Thanks!

A stand-alone conveyer (its own hydraulic pump) always make sense, unless you are planning to use a constant pressure pump ie variable displacement pump, which do not make sense due to it high cost....many thousands of dollars...
There is a third option here, to use a triple pump, use one of them for the conveyor, and the two others to make a two-stage set up, by using some sequence valves etc. But it can be hard to find a double or triple pump that can handle a higher pressure differential between the sections...

 

[zogger]

A stand-alone conveyer (its own hydraulic pump) always make sense, unless you are planning to use a constant pressure pump ie variable displacement pump, which do not make sense due to it high cost....many thousands of dollars...
There is a third option here, to use a triple pump, use one of them for the conveyor, and the two others to make a two-stage set up, by using some sequence valves etc. But it can be hard to find a double or triple pump that can handle a higher pressure differential between the sections...

Hey man, how ya doing! You were my ultimate inspiration to get a fiskars, long delayed thanks mucho!

 

[AKKAMAAN]

Hey man, how ya doing! You were my ultimate inspiration to get a fiskars, long delayed thanks mucho!

Thank You so much Mr Zogger, I truly appreciate it!
Here is a little bonus video for you...LOL

 

[fordf150]

Just another idea...I'm no expert but this is how my processor is set up...partially by my modifications and partly by the way it was manufactured. I have a 2 section pump that combined is around 18gpm on a 20hp engine. Conveyor has a priority valve that dedicates 6gpm to the conveyor which then has a flow control valve for speed and the splitter has a regen valve to speed up cycle times. Overall works good with fast cycle times but will only develop around 2600psi continuous and 2900 right as the engine stalls out. Even with a 4 way wedge I haven't found anything under 20" that it won't split.

 

[cedarhollow]

For a conveyor/splitter + extra cylinder system like your describing. If you could find a motor pump set up like the 2 cylinder deutz diesel with pumps from an old trenching machine
that might be a solution, those engines last forever and they sip fuel and can be run on warmed up filtered used cooking oil. The auxilary pump should be 2500psi and the trench chain motor should be variable with about 5000psi relief so you could vari speed of conveyor. the 11hp honda can properly run 1 two stage 16gpm splitter pump.