Any one ride the pick down?

[TreeGuyHR]

I'm just wondering why you left the hideous hazardous hatrack?

I guess its "in the eye of the beholder". Do you toss Granny in the Soylent Green vat when she loses a leg to diabetes?

Soylent Green Clip 4 - YouTube

I like that word label -- you are a poet. The HHH was mainly left because:

The client wanted it: he said he was going to put a Hobbit door in it, plus he wanted a littl;e shade for his patio.
It preserved a living remnant of a historic tree: not officially recognized, but historic just the same.

There is some precedent for the second point; perhaps you have heard about efforts in England to preserve oaks that are 500 -1000 years old? We are spoiled here in the PNW with our big old trees; they don't have as many over there. Plus they often have written histories describing events and people around a particular tree for the entire span of time --- something we don't have.

Neville Fay, in England, has published a bunch of stuff regarding what he calls "Veteran Trees" and their management. Long article below, worth browsing through. I saw the guy give a talk at the Tacoma PNW ISA conference in 2010. Kind of what i had in mind for the locust, but he would have had me tear the limbs off!:msp_confused:

http://www.treeworks.co.uk/downloads/7 - SurveyMethods & Arboricultural Technique.pdf

 

[Pelorus]

Thanks, TreeGuy,
I was worried that the client's bank account had been so traumatized that they could no longer afford to have the job finished...

That link you provided is interesting. This medieval paragraph kinda seared my eyeballs, lol:
"Experiments carried out at Windsor Great Park, involved winching off partially cut branches to produce rip or tear-cuts on dead trees. This was in some measure successful, but it proved impossible to predict the appropriate winch-tension necessary to effect breakage. Many trees failed at their roots before the attached branch broke off. As a result such practice has for the most part been stopped as it is deemed to be harmful..."

Shigo would also have no doubt deemed the practice to be harmful!

 

[treemandan]

"Have to ride a pick"...
You don't really have to do anything.
we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.

We don't have to use cranes. Climbers got trees down before anyone in our industry was using cranes, but they make our jobs much safer and more productive.

We don't have to use blocks and slings to butt hang wood, u can do the same thing with just rope....

My point being, "riding the load" was condemned years ago as the ultimate crane sin. At the time of condemnation friction cranes were still the norm and guys "riding the load" were just standing on an I beam or pallet with no fall protection or attachment at all.
With older friction cranes it was possible to free fall the winch, most lacked any of the fail safe features the modern hyd winches have today.
When you think about why "riding the pick" became such a sin you start to see how different what tree climbers do is.
It's just another tool in the box for safe tree removal.

If I see a good opportunity I will shoot some video.
I am going to have the camera out a lot, we just bought a LTM-1090-4.1 it should make for some good video. Who knows it might just flush out TV we all know how flustered pictures of shinny equipment makes him

Well thanks for the overwhelming lesson in rhetoric, now I see the light, but you didn't HAVE to do it.

Any pics of load riding would be appreciated.

 

[treeclimber101]

I just saw it on axe men the other nite , they taking down some kind of old factory and picking roof pieces and the guy was riding the pick , not the crane the pick , I mean wow if that isn't some holy #### WTF is he doing I dunno what is ?

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Thanks, TreeGuy,
I was worried that the client's bank account had been so traumatized that they could no longer afford to have the job finished...

That link you provided is interesting. This medieval paragraph kinda seared my eyeballs, lol:
"Experiments carried out at Windsor Great Park, involved winching off partially cut branches to produce rip or tear-cuts on dead trees. This was in some measure successful, but it proved impossible to predict the appropriate winch-tension necessary to effect breakage. Many trees failed at their roots before the attached branch broke off. As a result such practice has for the most part been stopped as it is deemed to be harmful..."

Shigo would also have no doubt deemed the practice to be harmful!

The Brits know how to turn a phrase, don't they?

To sum up a bit from his talk and that paper (which I only browsed myself, might have read it back in 2010):

He puts together 100 year programs for these highly defective trees to encourage "retrenchment" and "regenerative growth" (I think those are the right words). To begin, light topping cuts are made, and the tree is progressively shortened as new growth arises lower down; the rooting environment is also improved. The endpoint is reached when there is a vigorous, low crown growing from a shorter trunk, supported by healthy structural roots. If these trees (some are overgrown pollards) are just "preserved", they eventually uproot or break, because they are mostly air lower down.

Kind of the case with my honey locust. I was afraid that all the weight of the mostly solid upper trunks and crown, acting as heavy, long lever arms, could cause the tree to fail at the base or in a major fork. I hurried up the process, though; done his way, progressive topping cuts would have been made over many years.

About the tearing: he did experimentally find that more sprouting on the trunk occurred with topping "cuts" done that way, vs. clean saw cuts. Question: do you ride the pick as the leader is being torn off, or afterwards? How do you get onto the wildly swinging hook and load? I did not seriously consider this method for the locust :msp_tongue:

 

[MarquisTree]

Well thanks for the overwhelming lesson in rhetoric, now I see the light, but you didn't HAVE to do it.

Any pics of load riding would be appreciated.

[video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]

This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick.
…let it begin

 

[treemandan]

[video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]

This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick.
…let it begin

Sure, I have done a few " cut and runs", that's par for the course. I tend to make a downward angled backcut to help hold the piece in place. I picked that up from some crazy old load rider who had a lot of stitches and had a personal relationship with Jesus. No for nothing but maybe this is something you could use?

You can barely see it in this pic. Sometimes I make a V cut which really doesn't allow the piece to move at all.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

[video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]

This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick.
…let it begin

Looks reasonable to me.
Now, what I am asking below is based on my experience rigging, but with no crane experience as the climber - I am not saying what you did was the best or worst method.
I do see myself being the climber on a crane job (perhaps soon) so i am really interested in what you did.

Two questions (well, the first one has three parts):

Were the choker straps tightened completely or just "almost" before you rappelled down, before you cut the piece, or did they tighten completely by the top settling a bit after the cut?

Did one have a little more slack than the other?

The top seemed to settle sideways somewhat after the cut. I think I would have made sure that my attachments had equal tension before I rappelled down for the cut, perhaps by using two heavy rigging ropes. Seems to me that with choker straps, they have to be set below a fork (in this situation) since you didn't completely tighten them before cutting the piece (so as not to stress the tree to much?), and you can't set them to prevent them from sliding upwards when they are tightened up completely (either before you rappelled down to cut the top or before you cut it). Because of all that, you have to choke the top below the forks you have, and they may not be placed just right to equally tension the straps before you make your cut.

Of course, tying ropes takes more time, and each knot would need to have the slack run through them to be tightened completely or they could slide.

I hope you can follow what i am trying to say here...

 

[MarquisTree]

Looks reasonable to me.
Now, what I am asking below is based on my experience rigging, but with no crane experience as the climber - I am not saying what you did was the best or worst method.
I do see myself being the climber on a crane job (perhaps soon) so i am really interested in what you did.

Two questions (well, the first one has three parts):

Were the choker straps tightened completely or just "almost" before you rappelled down, before you cut the piece, or did they tighten completely by the top settling a bit after the cut?

Did one have a little more slack than the other?

The top seemed to settle sideways somewhat after the cut. I think I would have made sure that my attachments had equal tension before I rappelled down for the cut, perhaps by using two heavy rigging ropes. Seems to me that with choker straps, they have to be set below a fork (in this situation) since you didn't completely tighten them before cutting the piece (so as not to stress the tree to much?), and you can't set them to prevent them from sliding upwards when they are tightened up completely (either before you rappelled down to cut the top or before you cut it). Because of all that, you have to choke the top below the forks you have, and they may not be placed just right to equally tension the straps before you make your cut.

Of course, tying ropes takes more time, and each knot would need to have the slack run through them to be tightened completely or they could slide.

I hope you can follow what i am trying to say here...

Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip

Thanks -- that answers it quite well.

I would be starting out taking big logs off of beetle -killed ponderosa pine, a simpler procedure -- just put the bell (or strap) on the same side as you are. Any advice on that?

The job (if I get one or both of two proposed contracts) would be to bring in a crane and lift off logs from multiple trees in long lengths, loaded directly into a log truck or decked. Having two climbers up the tall stubs (or trees with just the tops) would speed things up, so i would finally get some crane experience. Now, I know the alternative is to cut logs brush and all and fly them away, but I think brushing them out the first day (no crane) would be quicker; the tops could be left whole, branches on, with or without the first log depending on the tree. My climber likes to use a break cut, but doesn't use wedges. I think I'll do the same but take my wedge pouch.

Pics are from the two sites:

First

View attachment 276406 View attachment 276410

Second

View attachment 276412View attachment 276413

 

[treemandan]

Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip

I leave the shelf on my side but tell me; what direction was the homeowner trying to drop that thing?

 

[MarquisTree]

I leave the shelf on my side but tell me; what direction was the homeowner trying to drop that thing?

Away from the house. He must have thought big tree, needs huge wedge cut. The tree was leaning away from the house a bit. He started his wedge cut but went more then half way through the tree and luckily got his saw pinched before he could cut more

 

[imagineero]

Is that what you'd call riding the pick down? Maybe we weren't on the same page at all. The pick stayed where it was, and you lowered off the hook. Might seem like a small difference, but that's a big difference to me.

 

[MarquisTree]

Is that what you'd call riding the pick down? Maybe we weren't on the same page at all. The pick stayed where it was, and you lowered off the hook. Might seem like a small difference, but that's a big difference to me.

I posted the video to show how we utilize the crane as a safe tie in point in some situations.
I don't have any videos of moving the climber and the pick together. I have done it but only in special situations.
It works well in a lot of storm damaged trees, worked a dam collapse where the USACE put a temporary dam up, we had another round of heavy rain, that caused a bank to erode into the river and a bunch of trees fell into the river and a few on the dam. There was no safe access for the climber other then riding in and out on the crane every pick.

We have invited third party inspectors on to our jobs a few times (former osha inspectors) they said we should be fine as long as we have a well thought out safety plan and very detailed justification for our work plan. Also very important to have everything else compliant onsite. If your crew looks like a bunch of cowboy hacks with no PPE insight your not going to have any luck justifying why you needed to using a technique they don't understand

 

[luckydad]

"Have to ride a pick"...
You don't really have to do anything.
we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.

We don't have to use cranes. Climbers got trees down before anyone in our industry was using cranes, but they make our jobs much safer and more productive.

We don't have to use blocks and slings to butt hang wood, u can do the same thing with just rope....

My point being, "riding the load" was condemned years ago as the ultimate crane sin. At the time of condemnation friction cranes were still the norm and guys "riding the load" were just standing on an I beam or pallet with no fall protection or attachment at all.
With older friction cranes it was possible to free fall the winch, most lacked any of the fail safe features the modern hyd winches have today.
When you think about why "riding the pick" became such a sin you start to see how different what tree climbers do is.
It's just another tool in the box for safe tree removal.

If I see a good opportunity I will shoot some video.
I am going to have the camera out a lot, we just bought a LTM-1090-4.1 it should make for some good video. Who knows it might just flush out TV we all know how flustered pictures of shinny equipment makes him

Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.

 

[MarquisTree]

Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.

The 1090-4.1 is a 2 engine machine.
Main reasons,
1. Quality and reliability
2. Factory direct training and support
3. Grove doesn't have comparable crane its more crane then the 4100b less then a 4115
4. Availability we will have ours in less then a month. We lucked out they had one with 8x8x8 and the larger tires just coming out of the factory this month that the sale fell thru

 

[MarquisTree]

Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines??


Our Altec 38127s has been great and the service from the factory has been outstanding. We like that Liehber is set up similarly.
When it's time to replace our boom truck we are not even going to talk to anyone else, we will just have Wayne Kenny build us another one

 

[MarquisTree]

Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.

Lucky,
I am not Mr. Marquis. I am the operations manager, I do a lot of different things for the company, but I am not the owner.
Just wanted to clarify that before anyone swoops in.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Question about log weight:

What chart do you guys use?

The back of the new ANSI Z133-2012 booklet (Safety Requirements, Arboricultural Ops) has one, but the diameters only go up to 24 in. Looks like you can extrapolate off the chart for larger diameters kind of:

For ponderosa pine, the weights go up by even increments plus 2 pounds for each 2 in. increase in diameter class (11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23); seems like a good pattern that could be used to extrapolate the chart.

However, for Douglas-fir and white oak, the increases vary:

Doug-fir: 9, 11, 14, 14, 16, 18, 19
White oak: 14, 18, 20, 23, 26, 28, 31

It would be handy if the ANSI booklet included a formula for how the weights were computed so I could extrapolate the chart before the job with more confidence. A lot of the planning for the two potential jobs in p-pine I described depends on log length, because that determines what happens to the logs: hog-fuel or pellet fuel (hauled by dump truck), saw logs (log truck with min length, at least for smaller diameter logs, of 32 ft.).

Maybe I should just figure on hauling it all to the pellet fuel mill, where they aren't as particular about length or grade. Then there would be a bit more certainty in the log sale offset part of the bid!
However, on one job the owner "wants" the logs left on site in lengths for milling, multiples of 16 plus trim, and he has some logs over 3 ft. diameter. At least the crane would be right next to the big pair of trees, and he just wants them decked on site (the second set of pics). The pine behind the house that forks at 20 ft. would be a pic OVER the house, but the logs can be laid down at the base of the tree (homeowner has own equipment to move them). I think I would let my climber with crane experience do that one. Probably time to invest in radios as well.

ANSI chart for 10 in. through 24 in. logs, green weight per foot of length:

P-Pine: 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100, 121, 144
DF: 21, 30, 41, 55, 69, 85, 103, 122
WHOak:34, 48, 66, 86,109, 135, 163, 194

Or I could just ask the crane guy i have used what chart he has... plus next time I'll have him record the length and weight; missed my opportunity on the last two jobs (one with honey locust and one with p-pine.

These are a few pics form the last job in p-pine, with a 40 ton crane. Butt diameter was a little over 3 ft, log lengths about 15 ft. So, extrapolating off the ANSI chart, the butt log was about 5000 pounds if average diameter was 36 in. (15 ft. x 324 lbs/ft = 4860 lbs.)

View attachment 276453View attachment 276454View attachment 276455

 

[luckydad]

Lucky,
I am not Mr. Marquis. I am the operations manager, I do a lot of different things for the company, but I am not the owner.
Just wanted to clarify that before anyone swoops in.

Sounds good. So tell me about that new toy, i mean crane.I bet its great!!Oh sorry didny read the posts above the last one.Sorry.