Arizona Wallow fire pics.

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I'm not sure how it is going to be split up. Species is mainly ponderosa pine. Most areas have a good volume per acre. You can get an idea of what is there by going through the photo stream.

The problem is that we have basically no infrastructure left in the area thanks to the environmentalists. The only mills I know of are the ones that Renegy owns and they can only 20 million board feet a year.

When the reservation lands burnt in 2002, the Apaches cut it all down and loaded in on railcars to be shipped to a mill somewhere in Georgia.
 
It isn't totally the enviro's fault. Stone Container decided to go 100% recycled paper in their paper mill and that stopped the market for the little peckerpoles that the enviros are in favor of cutting. I'd say more like 85% would be more of a blame factor...Thanks to the former Southwest Center for Biological Diversity which is now a bigger (got rid of the Southwest) Center for Biological Diversity.
 
slowp,

I've been involved in alot of what is going on here with the forest. I talk to the rangers here on a regular basis. And 100% of the blame lies on the Center for Biological Destruction. The A-S forest has tried many times in the past to get thinning projects going only to have the plans shot down by a bunch of enviro's who screamed we were going to clear cut the forest.

While CBD is involved in the White Mountain Stewardship project, they also went after the Greater Flagstaff Forest Partnership for doing the exact same thing the is going on up around Alpine and the like. CBD litigated the GFFP projects based on "unproven" science and techniques. Believe me, CBD has no interest in "saving" the environment, thye only care about litigating everything they can to gain money and power. They have forced the current management policies through litigation and they continue to do so. Right now, some 30% of the A-S budget goes directly to deal with litigation brought about by the enviro's. That 30% would go a long way in cleaning up this forest.

A major OSB manufacturer wasgoing to build an OSB plant here if the USFS would sign a 20 year contract to supply small diameter timber to the plant. The USFS would not sign the contract due to fear of litigation being brought about by the enviro's. This came directly from one of the Rangers. That plant would have needed around 30,000 acres a year to feed it.

There are also quite a few pellet mills coming online around here now. They would need around 5000 acres a year to feed them. There is also a big pellet mill about to start over in New Mexico. It has the capacity to produce 40,000 tons a year. So at a average of 100 tons per acre needing removed right now, that would chew up another 400 acres a year. Demand for wood pellets in Europe right now is exploding.

And add into this the fact that China is building 10 million affordable housing units for their people. Right now they are buying massive amounts of low grade logs from Canada for dimensional lumber. And thye still wnat more. Mature ponderosa pine makes and excellent dimensional product and we could sell everything that is burnt up there in a heartbeat.

The biomass power plant in Snowflake also needs and additional 100,000 tons of biomass to operate, so there is another 1000 acres a year.


We could get this forest cleaned up right quick if we could get the enviro's out of the way. The problem right now is, is that many of these places are afraid to sign a contract or hire any one to clean this up due to the possibility of the enviro's litigating the crap out of everything because they didn't get there own way. Alot of people could go back to work on this and stay employed for a very long time.

The market is there, it just needs to be developed a little. But unfortunately, what we have here is a small group of people who rely on peoples fears and knee jerk reactions to misinformation. And they have become very effective at it. And our forests are the ones suffering the most, to the tune of 40 million acres of National Forest land and an additional 150 million acres of public land. 190 million acres needing thinned to avoid catastrophic wilfires is just mind boggling and makes one wonder how we have gotten to this point.
 
acres needing thinned to avoid catastrophic wilfires is just mind boggling and makes one wonder how we have gotten to this point.

What's ironic about this alarming trend is that the FS itself abandoned its "10 AM Policy" years ago because they were beginning to understand the importance of fire in a functioning ecosystem. The "enviros" are setting back both science and policy by 40 years, and for what? More destruction, more waste? Way to go guys! Way to save the world!

(Note: as a trained biologist, a paid forestry technician and a seasonal wildland firefighter, I am familiar with the history of both sides of this argument, and am personally in favor of what works long-term -- which most decidedly does NOT mean a hand-s off approach to forest management)
 
The big hurdle is profit and budget. The enviros want thinning, but only the unmerch stuff and want it funded. (by whom is something else) The traditional way is to make a sale in an area and also allow the cutting of mature trees in order to pay for the non-merch thinning. In the eyes of eviros, and the younger urban generation, this is logging, and it is bad. Gotta get over that because the way budgets are being cut, funding by selling merch timber is going to be the only way to fund thinning.

But if a market for this small stuff happened, that takes care of that.

The FS is politically gun shy. Even here, the chief enviro group has pretty much dictated how things have been. They threaten to sue unless....

A new Forest Supervisor was hired, and some other positions have changed, and we shall see if this continues. However, I heard yesterday that the timber target (the amount of timber a forest is supposed to offer for sale in a year) was reduced to 22 million board feet. This is on a forest that could easily offer much more volume up for sale. We can grow nice trees here.
 
madhatte,

I hung my gear up Dec. 31, 2007 after 14 years on a volunteer wildland crew. 12 others went with me. We decided that if the trend continued (and it has) that we were not going to sacrifice our lives needlessly. I know a few of those the were at the Wallow Fire. And the behavior they described to me was absolutley terrifying.

slowp,

Actuall the small stuff has value. I just signed a tentative contract with Snowflake Power to supply biomass to them to the tune of 30,000+ tons a year. The uses are out there, just have to beat the bushes to find them. I also found out that the OSB plant may still go in. Couple of hundred jobs there not including the people in the woods harvesting. The wood pellet plant over in New Mexico has also been diffing around to find a supply of biomass. Looks like things may start picking up around here.

All I have to say to the enviro's is if they want to have a hands off approach then they need to get off their butt's and go fight these fires. Let them look a firestorm straight in the face and they will change their tune very fast. Especially when they are getting burnt while still a quarter mile away from the flames and trying to run away in an 80 mile an hour wind from the fire pulling air.
 
Just for giggles, here is a link to a comparison to the 1910 Woolsey inventory and a survey done on 185-87 by the USFS on the forests here in the Southwest. It is in basal area, but that is just square feet of tree diameter at breast height per acre. According to this report, we weren't such bad stewards after all. If they want to return the forests to old growth, let's do it. I'll even put a new chain on my saw.:rock:

http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Research/changed_southwestern_forests.htm

At bottom of page. Pay special attention to the 12-21 inch classes.
 
Any good timber in that or is it mostly junk?

If, they defy the eviros, and shoot for some of the older timber--80 yrs old, there will be some good stuff. I did a lot of recon and there is good and crappy stuff. Last I heard, two gutsy, recently hired on guys were pushing for 2 to 5 acre "openings" in some of the crappier units. The units are crappy because they are close to being understocked, due to root rot. If there are no little clearcuts, the volume per acre will be sad.

One recently retired guy--not me, was totally against any openings and going into the older stands. He HAD a lot of power on decisions made.

It was so bad, that whenever I got into a nice stand that was on the map to check out, I wondered what would be the problem with it, it was too nice to be in a sale--the way things went with the planners. But, each sale seems to get more contract requirements added on. Last I saw, silt fencing was going to be required around each landing. Now, how do you skid or yard logs over a silt fence, without damaging the silt fence each time?

Retirement is good.
 
I admire and respect you guys for battling with the idiots, both the gov'ment and the enviros. We don't need to cut everything down, but forest management isn't putting up a fence and hanging "NO TRESPASSING" signs on it. As was said, this was predicted, and sadly will probably be forgotten. To not no try to save as much of the timber would be mindless, good to see some of it getting to a mill.
One question, in the pictures they were dumping straw for erosion control and moisture preservation, I presume. Any seed with that, and that will stay without anchoring it? Seems some or a lot of it would wash with the next hard rain. And how far are we trucking the straw? I suppose that doesn't matter since its needed.
There was a mess of some grass hay that headed south to the gulf from up here, supposed to have been the stuff for soaking up oil.
 
Last I saw, silt fencing was going to be required around each landing. Now, how do you skid or yard logs over a silt fence, without damaging the silt fence each time?

Easy. The logger hires extra people...at his own expense...to repair the silt fence. Hell, everyone knows loggers are rich and can afford all the labor costs. :)

We just got through shot-rocking two low water crossings that don't even have water running across them. Just in case, ya know. But what the hell...it's only money.
 
Easy. The logger hires extra people...at his own expense...to repair the silt fence. Hell, everyone knows loggers are rich and can afford all the labor costs. :)

Maybe my second career? I went to a 3 day class on "erosion control." I do recall them saying they had very good results from spreading straw on a problem area, and then running sheep on it. The sheep worked the straw into the soil with their sharp little hoofies and also applied fertilizer at the same time.

Shhhhhh. If the wrong people see this, they'll be putting that method into contracts too. Them Montana guys might could have a problem.
 
Maybe he has seen the windthrow that occurs with that prescription?

Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The trees are all supposed to blow over if you thin them too. Not so here. You take a chance but then isn't growing timber one big chance? What with fires, mudslides, lawsuits etc. it is always risky.
 
Yup. Maybe "there" the forester has seen windthrow.


Thanks for sharing the risks of woodland ownership.
 

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