Barber chair theory.

[Blakesmaster]

AA, that sure looked like a normal notch (1/3rd or less) to me, and you must have been hiding when you did the bore cut, 'cause it sure looks like a normal notch 'n drop to me.

I played it slow and careful quite a few times, and I don't see the same things you are describing. Must be in the camera angle...

It's because AA is talking about this video
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/u/14/WWMOM3tEkvs
which isn't what I would call a barber chair. Just poor felling.

You're talking about this video
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU
which is isn't AA but some other dude and it's been posted and debated I believe in the logging forum before.

 

[Shawn Howard]

Down here we call em slab outs, may I ask "Barber chair" what is the origin of this metaphor.

Ive heard them called barber chairs because they say they will take your head off if it hits you. Or it could just be because the stump resembles a chair when it occurs.

I thought it was because the tree splits and falls
the same way you lean back on a barber chair -

- your butt swings out and the pivot point ends up
midway up your back...

 

[the Aerialist]

Aerial, you still climbing with ice axes?

Only in Winter when the trees are frozen.. lol

 

[the Aerialist]

Now I see the confusion ...

It's because AA is talking about this video
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/u/14/WWMOM3tEkvs
which isn't what I would call a barber chair. Just poor felling.

You're talking about this video
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU
which is isn't AA but some other dude and it's been posted and debated I believe in the logging forum before.

So right, that video is from my channel, but is not me. I had forgotten all about it until you linked it. I added it to my channel because I thought it was the best example of a barberchair I had ever seen video of so I added it.

I wondered about all the hoopla from that minor tiny slab I cut off with a quick swipe.

 

[pdqdl]

It's because AA is talking about this video

Well...I don't see how anybody could make a mistake. All that is required is to click on the link I posted. And he does have it on his YouTube "Channel".

 

[Nailsbeats]

Having a barber chair event is much more likely in frozen trees no question. Any firewood guy will tell you that frozen green wood is the best splitting, same thing falling frozen timber, it's a frozen green piece of wood. Bored backcuts, and face boring is standard around here partially for that reason.

Not only is it the headlean, load (ice/snow/other trees and limbs), wind, limbweight, falling timber perpendicular to a vertical seem, that can cause barber chair but regardless of all these factors, TEMPERATURE alone is a major factor!

When you step into the woods and it's below zero, you best make a mental note of it.

 

[the Aerialist]

They are all frozen around here ...

... Any firewood guy will tell you that frozen green wood is the best splitting, same thing falling frozen timber, it's a frozen green piece of wood. Bored backcuts, and face boring is standard around here partially for that reason...

We've had a week straight of sub-zero (C) days here with the night time temps falling into the low 20s (F).

The trees are hard as rock, gaffing is harder than heck, time to get my ice axes out again!

 

[smokechase II]

Cause

"What I would like to do in this thread is discuss recognizing the threat prior to starting the chainsaw."

I can't do that.
Has to include all factors to be accurate.

- - - - - - - - -

* Green tree with heavy lean. This is the most common denominator.
* Wind on tree top accomplishing the same effect as a heavy lean. Think of wind coming up and surprising the cutter.
* Another tree or trees leaning into tree in question accomplishing the same as a heavy lean.
* Overly aggressive wedging combined with inadequate face and back-cuts. Although this force is applied low it is essentially the same as a heavy lean.
* Some species have a greater tendency to split vertically. Split rail fences in much of the west were made from Larch (aka Tamarack). Think of Larch as 'prone' to chairing.
* Too deep a face when combined with much of the above.
* Back cut too slow - that would be the video. Old school loggers taught that if you started hearing popping you need to bear down and get 'er done. If you stopped cutting you could allow the tree to chair.
* Back cut not bored. This is probably the single best way to reduce barber chairing. It will not eliminate them.
* Face cut too short, not high enough.
* Apex of the Face cut (its back) parallel to a vertical split in the tree. Tree would need to be fell at a right angle (ideally) to the split to reduce or eliminate this risk.
* Hidden flaw (unseen split or rot) in the tree.
* Hitting an obstacle relatively close to the stump where the top keeps going but too much strong holding wood was left. Tree stays attached at the stump but leverage up higher facilitates the split.
* Too much holding wood. Mentioned in a variety of ways above but just making it clear here.


If I got old the PC I had more but I hate other than MAC psuedo-computers.

 

[the Aerialist]

PCs drool Macs Rule !!!

... I can't do that... Has to include all factors to be accurate...

If I got old the PC I had more but I hate other than MAC psuedo-computers.

Oh feces! I just cut out all of your excellent comment so I could pick a fight with you about computers ... And then I find out we actually agree, darn it. (at least I think we do, I can't quite parse that last comment).

Anybody want to fight about what luzers PC users are?

 

[smokechase II]

Must have been a virus in that code

My last sentence will have to stand on its own.

In other words, opps.

Go Mac and you won't go back.

won't won't won't.

 

[the Aerialist]

... Go Mac and you won't go back...

Well I've had a Macintosh since around 1986. My "Fat Mac" still boots up and runs. I have an Apple Cube (circa 2000) on my desk. It's sort of a very large iPod as it serves up my music collection for my office. I have a Mac Mini in the living room which does the same thing, but also offers video and all the things a modern Mac can do. A Sony Bravia is it's monitor.

When I got into adding video to my web site I got a maxed out iMac to do the editing. Awesome machine. Here's shot of my office desk:

 

[smokechase II]

got

We've got a couple IMAC's and our daughter just got a new fully equipped laptop. Nice to have teacher/student discounts.

One son is fixing an older laptop (about 6 years old-screen connection issues) for us.

The no security software needed and yet no virus problems are nice.

We did have a problem with the new iLife update, the disc was scratched so we had to wait for a replacement.

We stepped out and got a Lexmark printer and I'm amazed what you get for $190 yet the black ink is only $5/cartridge. It's nice to have the two sided feature. We can print from a variety of things other than computers on that printer/no cables.

=========

In a back room, jammed in a corner, is the PC where we can go for some old files and photos. Its near where we are going to put a cat box.

Back to the Barber Chair angle.

I go back to the old PC and dig out some more barber chair concerns.
I had some powerpoint slides started too.

 

[pdqdl]

Smoke: the reason I started the thread was not to discuss all the potential ways to have (or avoid) the BC event. As you have pointed out, there are a lot of factors.

I had the simple goal of addressing just the tree itself, not all of the many outside factors. So far, I think the conversation has been rather constructive, particularly the comment about "narrow taper" by R&R.

 

[the Aerialist]

PCs Suck Macs Rule ...

The Powerbook G4 shown on the left in my photo has the same problem but intermittent so it's very hard to nail down. Still 6 years for a laptop is pretty good.

 

[tree MDS]

Well I've had a Macintosh since around 1986. My "Fat Mac" still boots up and runs. I have an Apple Cube (circa 2000) on my desk. It's sort of a very large iPod as it serves up my music collection for my office. I have a Mac Mini in the living room which does the same thing, but also offers video and all the things a modern Mac can do. A Sony Bravia is it's monitor.

When I got into adding video to my web site I got a maxed out iMac to do the editing. Awesome machine. Here's shot of my office desk:

#### addict.

 

[smokechase II]

taper

pdgdl:

The comment on knots holding the wood in place may have some merit.

However, to get strength within the trunk area that could accomplish that the tree would have to be in a non-stand setting. Which is less common.

Trees loose their lower limbs as they are shaded out leaving minimal knots within.

In some species the limb/knot is actually a common point of entry for rot.

============

One of the ways to reduce barber chair risk is to chain/cable around the trunk prior to cutting. Strong knots through the bole could help in that direction but they certainly couldn't hold with the strength of steel. Except higher up in a tree where you couldn't put wraps.
An interesting side story is how many climbers died from trees splitting as they were being topped. The most common way for those guys to die was to axe through their rope. Cable cored ropes fixed that. The second most common way was to be crushed as the tree split. Just to show that limbs are not a guaranteed way to prevent a tree from splitting look at those topping videos from yesteryear. Plenty of limbs up where they topped 'em.

= = = = = = == = = =

In the video, how many trees do you see that have substantial limbs near the ground?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

My point would still be proper cutting technique should be used on a continuous basis. It's not just that the wind could come up, or unfamiliarity with new species but also understanding that there can be hidden defects within the tree that no one could see.

A poster here told a story about working in Alaska. A co-worker had just climbed a Spruce to set it up as a spar. It only had a small amount of rigging in it and hay wire hanging down. The climber had just gotten down when the tree Barber Chaired. No Cuts. Just a little stress revealed a hidden defect.

Good habits are hard to break.

-----------------------

Don't think of cutting technique as a way of preventing a barber chair.

Also think of it as a way to cause a chair.

For instance, an overly deep face cut.
This could cause the tree to go early.
Before the back-cut is completed or even started.

Of course, a tree with a natural face - (from fire, a scar or rot), could be ready to split on its own or with even just the start of a cut.

 

[smokechase II]

video

With regard to the video:

The tree clearly has enough lean to be treated as a risk.
Not because of a lack of lower limbs but because of the weight of the lean applying force.

The face cut looks adequate.
The open face guys often go into a spiel at this point about how the face should have been higher.
This barber chair wasn't from the face closing early.
Not an issue here.

The guy stopped cutting when he heard it pop and crack.
That is one error.

But the larger error would be not boring the back-cut.

In some cases or superior hardwoods having a sharp saw isn't good enough.
There is a triangle cut technique that can help but boring is just so easy.

==============

Another point that could be put out for the good of the order would be pointing out that I haven't ever had a barber chair. This isn't because of excellence as a cutter but mostly i just drop dead trees and follow what I was taught.

Dead trees don't have mush weight.
They do have plenty of splits so don't drop at an angle that encourages the split, of course.

Weight up high or force imitating that up high is the main cause.

+++++++++++

Howdy Burt
Its Bill again.

 

[the Aerialist]

You obviously know your stuff ...

With regard to the video:... Weight up high or force imitating that up high is the main cause....

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU

The video from my YouTube "Channel" was an obvious Barber Chair and a dangerous one. The video of me from my channel was also technically a barber chair but a tiny and not dangerous one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWMOM3tEkvs

What are your comments and observations about my mini barber Chair?

 

[newsawtooth]

What are your comments and observations about my mini barber Chair?

After watching your video, I offer to the group that we did not see a barber chair, rather a cut that mitigated a potential barber chair. The strap of wood that tore out at the end is normal and desired for boring backcuts. The stored energy in that small strap of wood is exponentially less than the potential energy that could have been released had the tree actually barber chaired. Perhaps you weren't expecting the result, but you mostly demonstrated the cut and outcome for mitigating a potential barber chair.

 

[the Aerialist]

So I did no wrong ? ...

... we did not see a barber chair, rather a cut that mitigated a potential barber chair... Perhaps you weren't expecting the result, but you mostly demonstrated the cut and outcome for mitigating a potential barber chair.

That's the first time it happened that way, but I don't use that technique all that often. The ground around it was at about a 45 degree angle so judging lean was difficult, I could hardly stand up there myself.