Bore cut felling?

[056kid]

056, joesawyer speaks of the famed side band swarp notch!

I see that!!! I have "swarped" some big trees. But like he said, its more of an art. Talk about slabbing wood, you had better know what the heck you are doing before you try the side band swarp notch!! i really love it in tall clear white oak that I want side hilled. I have another variation of the side band that I was thinking of when I responded to the chainsaw monkey dudes post about trees getting hung. its not a swing cut, just a cut to tip the tree and rip 2 holding posts on each side of sap wood. itl send a tree flying and let her roll through the thickest of canopys. Like I said, you have to know your wood, and you have to know how much to leave and how much not to leave, but when you start getting it right, it can be a very productive way to fall timber!

BTW sorry about miss spelling sooo many words, I dont know if my hands are growing or what, but I cannot seem to hit the right buttons...........

 

[056kid]

Similar to a kerf face but with a small undercut they call a chip and it can be 2/3 or even 3/4 of the way through a 24" tree. They often cut until it starts to set down on the saw.

From what I have learned, ALWAYS make your kirf 1/2 of the tree, then depending on how you want to swing it or if you just want to flop it, usually on a 24''er a 3 to 5 inch chip will do the job. any deeper and you cant get that sweet swing affect. also it seems like deeper than that and you get more chances of slabbing than the desired affect. If you do it right woy will pull NO wood from the butt, the wood will come from the stump...

 

[GASoline71]

Gary, you just like watching me make an idiot out myself! Lol
Gypo

HAHAHAHA! Thanks John!

Gary

 

[2dogs]

From what I have learned, ALWAYS make your kirf 1/2 of the tree, then depending on how you want to swing it or if you just want to flop it, usually on a 24''er a 3 to 5 inch chip will do the job. any deeper and you cant get that sweet swing affect. also it seems like deeper than that and you get more chances of slabbing than the desired affect. If you do it right woy will pull NO wood from the butt, the wood will come from the stump...

I only use the kerf face on very small trees that I can push in the direction I want them to fall. I don't have a clue what a swarp and chip is.

 

[RandyMac]

Bore cutting?
How about this, I lifted this from a pinhead article, can't find the pic.

"the Discovery Tree, was stripped of its bark and cut down by ambitious speculators. The tree was the largest in the North Grove, towering 300 feet with a diameter of over 25 feet at the base. Due to its massive size, no saw was large enough to cut through it, so the tree was felled with other tools of that era – long-handled pump augers and wedges. It took five men 22 days to drill all the holes, and a few days later, the 1,244-year-old tree finally toppled over, smashing the earth with an estimated 2,600 tons of earthshaking force. The bark was assembled into the original form of the tree for a traveling exhibit, the fallen trunk was turned into a two-lane bowling alley and bar, and the stump of the majestic tree was planned smooth to serve as a dance floor, prompting John Muir in his anger to say, “Then the vandals danced upon the stump!”

 

[Gologit]

Bore cutting?
How about this, I lifted this from a pinhead article, can't find the pic.

"the Discovery Tree, was stripped of its bark and cut down by ambitious speculators. The tree was the largest in the North Grove, towering 300 feet with a diameter of over 25 feet at the base. Due to its massive size, no saw was large enough to cut through it, so the tree was felled with other tools of that era – long-handled pump augers and wedges. It took five men 22 days to drill all the holes, and a few days later, the 1,244-year-old tree finally toppled over, smashing the earth with an estimated 2,600 tons of earthshaking force. The bark was assembled into the original form of the tree for a traveling exhibit, the fallen trunk was turned into a two-lane bowling alley and bar, and the stump of the majestic tree was planned smooth to serve as a dance floor, prompting John Muir in his anger to say, “Then the vandals danced upon the stump!”

Hmmmmm....I like that..."then the vandals danced upon the stump...". Think a quote from John Muir might make a good signature for a logger?

 

[slowp]

Hmmmmm....I like that..."then the vandals danced upon the stump...". Think a quote from John Muir might make a good signature for a logger?

Now everybody will think you are from Idaho. But that wouldn't be a bad thing.

I wonder what kind of dance? The stump couldn't have been too smooth if they drilled and wedged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tu0PAbW75A

 

[bitzer]

Feel the kerf tightening? Are you talking about felling or bucking? As an example yesterday I was bucking up a 3 1/2' redwood about 50' up from the stump where it was about 38" in diameter. The log was laying on a slope and was over a road so the kerf was closing. I reamed the cut constantly ( some guys here call it see-sawing). This kept the kerf open till the log dropped away.

If you are talking about feeling the kerf close while falling then you are beyond me. If my backcut is closing (in my little world) then the tree is sitting back and no amount of reaming will cause it to open up. In fact it will cause the tree to sit back even further. Unless the tree is a head leaner my backcuts always get wedges. Always. I once had a 4' dbh snag (on the side of a road) get sky bound and I ran out of wedges and had to cut up branches. Now I carry 2 or 4 wedges and have even more in the truck.

2Dogs, I was talking about felling a HEAVY headed forward leaner. The crown was about 40' forward of center. The tree was only about 25" DBH or so, but there was a hell of a lot of weight in the crown. Total the tree ended up being about 70'. The wood compresses really easily on those and leaving a thick hinge may help that, but its really hard to get them to swing at all with too much hinge and that one would have piled into a large ash nearby if I was not able to swing it. Like I said tho, thats not regular forest timber. They are just overgrown weeds.

 

[2dogs]

2Dogs, I was talking about felling a HEAVY headed forward leaner. The crown was about 40' forward of center. The tree was only about 25" DBH or so, but there was a hell of a lot of weight in the crown. Total the tree ended up being about 70'. The wood compresses really easily on those and leaving a thick hinge may help that, but its really hard to get them to swing at all with too much hinge and that one would have piled into a large ash nearby if I was not able to swing it. Like I said tho, thats not regular forest timber. They are just overgrown weeds.

Hey Bitzer I was respomding to both you and 056 kid regarding watching the kerf close. Thanks to both of you for expalining what you meant.

Tuesday I dropped a tree almost exactly like the one you described here. 25" dbh, 70' tall, 40 of crown. It was a heavy leaning half rotten tanoak. I put in a teeny face cut and a normal backcut. The tree started to fall and broke 6" of hinge. I figured it would do this so it was no problem. The biggest problem was it was on a river bank and the footing was terrible. I had to throw the 660 up against the trunk, over my head, to try to get the dogs to bight. The first time I tried I slid down the bank 5 or 6 feet. Then for the backcut I had to put my foot against the trunk to hold myself on the bank and had nowhere to go when the tree fell. It was one of those trees where I had to use my first instinct about how to fall it "safely." It all ended well.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Since the general theme on this forum lately has been bore cutting and dealing with leaners, I noticed that when taking down a leaner, it's best to use the plunge cut, especially when cutting above shoulder height since the wood is bearing the weight of the saw.

It's just a matter of plunging in thru the heart, cut down and out then cut up till the butt end swings down and away.

It can't be done properly unless the saw is sharp and fast.
When doing this below the shoulders, it's sometimes best to just make one fast cut from bottom to top.

The higher you cut above the shoulders, the greater chance there is of the tree jack knifing back towards the stump area, especially on down slopes.

If this ever happens, just run towards the safe side of the tree it was hung up in. It's just a matter of predicting what will happen before it does and acting accordingly.

 

[bitzer]

Hey Bitzer I was respomding to both you and 056 kid regarding watching the kerf close. Thanks to both of you for expalining what you meant.

Tuesday I dropped a tree almost exactly like the one you described here. 25" dbh, 70' tall, 40 of crown. It was a heavy leaning half rotten tanoak. I put in a teeny face cut and a normal backcut. The tree started to fall and broke 6" of hinge. I figured it would do this so it was no problem. The biggest problem was it was on a river bank and the footing was terrible. I had to throw the 660 up against the trunk, over my head, to try to get the dogs to bight. The first time I tried I slid down the bank 5 or 6 feet. Then for the backcut I had to put my foot against the trunk to hold myself on the bank and had nowhere to go when the tree fell. It was one of those trees where I had to use my first instinct about how to fall it "safely." It all ended well.

I figured you were talking to both of us. Its tough to describe a situation decently anyway, so I just wanted to clear it up a little.

That sounds like it was a real PITA. My kinda stuff! ha. ha. Glad it ended well. Sometimes they don't like to leave the stump if I just back cut them and then its more pita for me. I know all about the 6 inch hinge that way. Very little swingin will happen if you need it too, but if your just putting it out front or just getting it on the ground the 6 inch hinge works fine for me too! I've also been cutting more hearts out on those, but its a little sketchy when I'm under the lean like that.

Do you ever wonder if you get paid enough for this? I do. I wouldn't give it up though either. If I'm not working where I'm currently at, I'll be doing it on my own terms in a few years.

 

[Gologit]

Now everybody will think you are from Idaho. But that wouldn't be a bad thing.

I wonder what kind of dance? The stump couldn't have been too smooth if they drilled and wedged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tu0PAbW75A

Yeah, you're right, bad idea. Back to work.

 

[RandyMac]

Bob, wasn't there a photo of bigass stump near Trinidad, with a bunch of school kids on it, a 25 footer or something. I don't have access to my files, crap.
See you in June, Bob?

 

[Gologit]

Bob, wasn't there a photo of bigass stump near Trinidad, with a bunch of school kids on it, a 25 footer or something. I don't have access to my files, crap.
See you in June, Bob?

I hope so. June is usually pretty busy but I'll try to be there. Lots of work opening up this year, more than the last couple of years anyway. LOL...this being semi retired is turning into more work than working full time.

I remember the picture. I also remember one of a horse and buggy and some people on a big OG stump. Look for an old book called The Glory Days of Logging.

Gotta run.

 

[joesawer]

056, joesawyer speaks of the famed side band swarp notch!

Lol at least now I know what to call it!

 

[FSburt]

Well said Joe I am trying to keep some of these hard learned skills from being lost as well since most of our elder fallers are retired or have moved on to the big timber upstairs. Kinda tough most of our young cutters just don't have the passion to learn the stuff or take some of their own time to educate themselves when they are off the job. Hell when I worked up in Orleans in 89' I went out on my weekends and worked for a faller packing his fuel and extra saw for just the time to watch and listen to him explain what we was doing. This was me second season in the woods and I worked for free. Maybe I am a rarity in loving this kind of work but those times watching and listening to a man who was 74 yrs old packing around a 084 with 42" bar and cutting old growth up around Lightning Ridge off the GO road gave me a real lesson in how to cut efficiently and not waste energy which to me is what all this GOL cutting does by all the extra cuts and wedging when a simple undercut backcut and wedge would send the tree over.

I don't know you and you don't know me so I will give you the benefit of doubt. Are you capable of learning anything or are you to highly educated to learn anything new.

Lesson one- Learn to use some paragraphs, it will make your posts much easier to read and understand.

My grand father was cutting timber in the Appalachians when the transition from misery whip and ax to chainsaw took place.
When the chainsaw first came on the scene they started using bore cuts. My bore cut training traces its roots back to the first power saws to come to the eastern US.
Some time after WWII the old tried and true timber falling technology in the south eastern US was lost. It was replaced by Asplundh tree service technology, mechanized harvesting and some kind of kerf face, cut and hope technique.
The technology that came from Europe to the US kept moving west and was only found in the western US, when they reinvented the wheel and called it new and introduced it to those who had lost it the first time. But it was promoted as the very best and safest way to cut trees in virtually all situations.
It can cover for some mistakes or lack of training, but it is far from the end all, be all of timber falling.

As for driving wedges into the kerf of a tree that has been cut up but still has a strap holding the back, it is an exercise in stupidity. And anyone endorsing it is just showing off their ignorance.

 

[Veteran]

Well said Joe I am trying to keep some of these hard learned skills from being lost as well since most of our elder fallers are retired or have moved on to the big timber upstairs. Kinda tough most of our young cutters just don't have the passion to learn the stuff or take some of their own time to educate themselves when they are off the job. Hell when I worked up in Orleans in 89' I went out on my weekends and worked for a faller packing his fuel and extra saw for just the time to watch and listen to him explain what we was doing. This was me second season in the woods and I worked for free. Maybe I am a rarity in loving this kind of work but those times watching and listening to a man who was 74 yrs old packing around a 084 with 42" bar and cutting old growth up around Lightning Ridge off the GO road gave me a real lesson in how to cut efficiently and not waste energy which to me is what all this GOL cutting does by all the extra cuts and wedging when a simple undercut backcut and wedge would send the tree over.

Oreleans is easy work in Hoopa in 64

 

[FSburt]

My uncle worked up there in the 60-70's. Pretty wild stories of the logging shows they had going on up there during those times. What part of Hoopa where you working on the West side or east side. They had some big timber on the rez but got cut out fairly heavy when the mill was going strong. My foreman was from Hoopa so he gave me the lowdown on what areas to steer clear of and what bars to stay out of especially for a out of town indian.

 

[Slamm]

I guess, I'm with the bore cutting group ..... however unpopular that is, LOL.

I worked with a good cutter that knew about 50 different ways to get a tree on the ground, and the underlying result in high quality hardwoods was ripped out sides and questionable placement. Now I know that crap happens and it happens to everyone, but bore cutting gets quality wood down consistently without damaging valueable wood in the process and I don't see how some of you consider it more dangerous??

I started up in Wisconsin and those that I worked for and learned from said learn the bore cut and get good at it and some of the variations there of, and you won't need anything else. I have done that and I feel I can keep up with most anyone in the woods and my stumps and butts look a lot better than those that stump jump and try to speed through the cut and then wonder where its going or rip the side out of a good walnut or white oak and such.

I don't see where the bore cut requires anymore cutting or wedging than any other cut and if it does then it is only by a small amount and for the extra "wasted" time you get the satisfaction of complete or certainly more control of when the tree finally goes over, especially during windy conditions or improper read on where it wanted to go.

My current cutter bore cuts and has only used wedges 3 times in about 290,000 board feet, so I don't understand why everyone thinks you have to use wedges just because you bore cut.

Very interesting topic though, always like discussing it,

Sam

 

[056kid]

Spending a day in the shoes of a cascades or steep terrain faller would possibly change your opinion. . .

& no, the river banks arent considered steep