Bore cut felling?

[Slamm]

Spending a day in the shoes of a cascades or steep terrain faller would possibly change your opinion. . .

& no, the river banks arent considered steep

Junior, I have logged in the hills of Wisconsin, they are as steep any anything anyone else has logged, just not as tall. A good method is a good method regardless of the steepness of the dirt around the stump.

Later,

Sam

 

[hammerlogging]

Junior, I have logged in the hills of Wisconsin, they are as steep any anything anyone else has logged, just not as tall. A good method is a good method regardless of the steepness of the dirt around the stump.

Later,

Sam

I've been on both sides of this game. I was trained by a GOL eastern hardwood faller. And the differnece between some steep ground and always ####ing steep is huge. I'm going to tell you my take. If its a veneer red oak, or cherry or walnut or whatever big money tree over 30" or more on the stump and has got a serious head lean the way I'm falling it, yeah, I'll bore it from both sides. If it has a fork I have to lay flat, yes, I'll open face it. I'll be damned if I'm gonna bore cut every ####in tree from both sides. You do realize that if you want production you lay them sidehill. And that would mean boring the underside over your head, over and over. And lots of dancing around the stump. I run 32" bars. If I'm rolling throught the timber like a mother####er I'm gonna humboldt and backcut every ####ing one of them. I'm gonna get rid of my underside from the uphill side however I can. And since the ####### fellerbuncher (timbco self leveler) gets all the good ground, you're damn right its steep, all of it. And I'll give credit to some of these AS folks for helping my reformation. And some fallers I get to work with who work all over the country, with others from all over the country. Even the kid gets his due credit, but don't tell him .

Open face bore cutting is good cause every tree is the same, its safe, etc., but it is NOT as fast. And that is $/ton. And thats just business. I understand your point, but I want you to understand both points. See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut. Damn she'll pull around, and no splinter pull. Just promise you'll tell me when you think "####, never seen one pull like that"

Onward brave soldiers.

 

[slowp]

This is the photo I used to pack around when I worked in Wisconsin. I'd pull it out when the loggers would complain about the ground being steep. I wish it showed more of the unit below the landing. One guy broke a hip on this setting, you'd be walking the boundary and the logs would shift and start rolling to the bottom, when nobody else was around. The uphill part shown was the flattest section.

It was a steep, long slope. The tailhold was on a ridge that was on the other side of a creek.

 

[Slamm]

I've been on both sides of this game. I was trained by a GOL eastern hardwood faller. And the differnece between some steep ground and always ####ing steep is huge. I'm going to tell you my take. If its a veneer red oak, or cherry or walnut or whatever big money tree over 30" or more on the stump and has got a serious head lean the way I'm falling it, yeah, I'll bore it from both sides. If it has a fork I have to lay flat, yes, I'll open face it. I'll be damned if I'm gonna bore cut every ####in tree from both sides. You do realize that if you want production you lay them sidehill. And that would mean boring the underside over your head, over and over. And lots of dancing around the stump. I run 32" bars. If I'm rolling throught the timber like a mother####er I'm gonna humboldt and backcut every ####ing one of them. I'm gonna get rid of my underside from the uphill side however I can. And since the ####### fellerbuncher (timbco self leveler) gets all the good ground, you're damn right its steep, all of it. And I'll give credit to some of these AS folks for helping my reformation. And some fallers I get to work with who work all over the country, with others from all over the country. Even the kid gets his due credit, but don't tell him .

Open face bore cutting is good cause every tree is the same, its safe, etc., but it is NOT as fast. And that is $/ton. And thats just business. I understand your point, but I want you to understand both points. See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut. Damn she'll pull around, and no splinter pull. Just promise you'll tell me when you think "####, never seen one pull like that"

Onward brave soldiers.

Why is it everyone keeps saying you have to bore in from both sides with the bore cut?? Does cutting with some other method suddenly make your bar longer?

If I can get through the whole tree from one side, I don't walk around the tree. I stand on one side and cut the whole thing down.

See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut.

I guess I would sure like to see how all of the above described cutting is going to be faster than just simply a shallow face and then boring out the back.

And on our big hardwoods there isn't going to be any "faster" humboldt cutting to 100% of the diameter, as we cut too low to the ground to humboldt anything if it isn't on steeper ground or cut higher up or you are sure cutting into the biggest nastiest part of the tree (the swells) and doing a lot of "precise" cutting in that area to boot.

I never understood the hinge cutting to 1/3 or 1/2 the diameter stuff. First you are making your hinge in the weaker wood. You are double cutting a lot of wood which is a lot slower (nobody ever admits that), and the mills don't like the short boards on that side.

I love topics like this where there are two sides that for the life of them can't see how the other side is faster or better, LOL.

I see bore cutting as a method that severs the stump wood with the least amount of inches cut other than a shallow notch and coming in from the back, and actually bore cutting is the same inches, except you are just cutting from the hinge out. There aren't anymore "extra" cuts needed than with any other cutting method, and your only "loss" is that you have to cut a little slower with the initial plunge cut.

That being said, in a lot of normal sized trees (for around here), I do what I call swing cutting where I do "bore out" the center but I never cut with the back/top of the bar. I use the dogs for everything and it is quite fast, as you are always using the bottom of the bar, but you have to really know where your tip is. It is also just as "safe" or if you don't like the word safe, it is just as predictable as the bore cut, because you have gutted the inside of the tree and if you are good, also thinned the hinge in the middle to prevent splitting or slabbing the butt.

None of what I described above requires some inherent use of wedges, as a knee jerk sollution to a lean. If you bore cut a tree and it requires wedges, then it likely was going to require wedges with any other method ..... or a skidder, LOL. Like I said the guy (Bert) I learned to bore cut from just recently cut at or over 290,000 board feet and used wedges 3 times (a choker setter had to go get them for him since he doesn't even carry any) and a skidder maybe 3 more times, and he put just about every tree where I wanted him to put them (as the owner and skidder driver of the operation). I have skidded behind guys who cut with all of these other methods in their back of tricks, and while the wood may get laid where it is suppose to at times, the butts and stumps look like some farmer cut them, fiber pulled and sides ripped out and never as safe. They always have some excuse:

Oh the wind caught it.
Oh I had to race the cut and my saw wasn't fast enough.
Oh the butt was rotten and wouldn't hold.
I din't judget the lean right.

I would drive up with the skidder and never really be sure that the tree was not going to fall on me, and these are well respected cutters. Not some rookie.

With the bore cut and a few modifications and tricks you can put most any tree right were you want it, and do it just as quickly in the long run with higher quality results than a lot of other ways. It is safer for the humans and machines involved and it is "safer" for the wood in the tree.

I don't wonder is some of the non-agreement comes from some here are cutting softwood or on the west coast where for all practical purposes it seems that fiber pull and crappy looking butts is a non issue. Last night I watched Axmen on Netflix on the computer with the family, holly cow, about every other tree is high cut and fiber pulled with chainsaws laying around the stump while the people running like mad, LOL. If that is the excitment that I was to be looking for in my life, I will start with other less predictable methods. I saw that they have a machine that the first thing they do is cutt the crappy butt off of the log, that is the first thing, waste of time and waste of wood, but I thought that was kinda funny an operation to simply rid of the tree/log of the crappy looking but left by the cutters, and you can't tell me, that to some extent standard practice out there because several outfitts were doing it.

So that is fine, for arguments sake, I'll call the bore cut a little slower, but the results are of a much higher quality on average, when this method is used by those that know how to take advantage of its benefits (and not just for safety's sake), and I'll accept that your various 50 different ways to get a tree to the ground is faster, provided a "farmer" isn't running the saw, LOL.

That is my opinion,

Sam

 

[forestryworks]

I never understood the hinge cutting to 1/3 or 1/2 the diameter stuff.

In my opinion you want to maximize the width of your holding wood.

 

[Slamm]

In my opinion you want to maximize the width of your holding wood.

I understand, but I obviously don't, and have had zero problems, without having to double cut the same butt/stump wood. That is just my experience.

Example, on a lot of the stuff I see you cutting, I wouldn't go near as deep. I don't care that you do, because that is that way you like to do it, but I don't think you are buying anything by doing it.

You actually have a lot less control front to back when you cut a hughe notch as the hinge is now 4-12" deep into the diameter and therefore has less control of the tree going over backwards if that is a problem, without lossing much of anything side to side.

If I screw up and "split" a butt where I made the hinge, big deal, I just slabbed off a little of the sap wood. I can still count on 1 hand the amount of times I have done that and it hasn't been in the last 2-3 years.

If those that cut the hinge to 1/3-1/2 of the tree screw up, they just ruined the tree and/or got one heck of a barber chair, as a door prize.

My opinion,

Sam

 

[Gypo Logger]

I've never found that plunge cuts were necessary unless dealing with leaners, although sometimes I'd plunge out the heart a bit thru the uncut on a valuable stem, just to ensure no fibre pull.
Most fibre pull and butt shatter is do to cuts not meeting, unintentional dutchman, chainsaw too slow or dull and the faller taking the saw out of the cut too soon.
Once the tree is committed to it's intended direction of fall there is nothing wrong with blasting thru the remaining holding wood or at least swing it somewhat by cutting off a corner.
This may sound dangerous to some, but you see alot of fallers lingering dangerously close to the stump as the tree falls. If you're gonna hang around the stump as the tree falls you may as well be doing something before you retreat on the escape route.
A committed tree is a committed tree, so cutting any remaining wood will insure that the tree will roll. With hardwoods this method ensures the least possible damage to the tree and surrounding trees.
John

 

[056kid]

Slamm I think you are IN farmer logger territory. I believe that if you went to either coast and found the high ballers, you'd get your tush stomped, chewed, and spit out in a big hurry...

That's just my opinion. . .

 

[Slamm]

Slamm I think you are IN farmer logger territory. I believe that if you went to either coast and found the high ballers, you'd get your tush stomped, chewed, and spit out in a big hurry...

That's just my opinion. . .

Thank you, for letting me know that is your opinion, that way I know how much weight to give it 0 .

I've got enough pics and videos to show we don't cut like a "farmer". If I went west I would adjust my cutting as needed to make them happy, but for where I'm at and for who I am cutting and skidding for, they really, really like the looks of things, and our production is on par with anyone else in similar timber if not much higher, so your opinion however wrong it is, doesn't hold much if any weight.

Later,

Sam

 

[hammerlogging]

Slamm, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I can get more sidehill with other methods than with a shallow open face bore cut method. Therefore, I can get more trees sidehill with other techniques. I can get more trees to go against thier lean manipulating my hinge and backcut with other techniques. So its faster. And trees/day is way faster, because with all my stems layed out nice a parallel in lead and sidehill I just have to go "over there" to top them rather than "way the #### down there" to top them.

Yes, you can get lower stumps with conventional or open faces on flat ground, but not on steep ground. Plus,the action of the butt off the stump on the humboldt is most satisfying, esp. when it comes to spanning steep draws in SMZs- by getting the butt to hit first you save out stem that would definately break otherwise, and for jumping the butt downhill to get the stem to lay more sidehill, and on and on.

I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you are giving the other methods their due credit. I'll defend the merits of open face bore cutting where appropriate, esp. for training or improving fallers, but once that method is mastered its time to move on to more technique.

 

[DangerTree]

Clearly plunge cuts ARE A GOOD tool in your bag. The original question was how to do one. Simple, to avoid kick back start the cut on the bottom of the bar at the tip and as the cut progresses roll the the tip into the cut until pointed in the direction of cut. That simple -no magic.

 

[floyd]

Here's the thing that bugs me about GOL



Logging is not a game.

 

[Slamm]

Slamm, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I can get more sidehill with other methods than with a shallow open face bore cut method. Therefore, I can get more trees sidehill with other techniques. I can get more trees to go against thier lean manipulating my hinge and backcut with other techniques. So its faster. And trees/day is way faster, because with all my stems layed out nice a parallel in lead and sidehill I just have to go "over there" to top them rather than "way the #### down there" to top them.

Yes, you can get lower stumps with conventional or open faces on flat ground, but not on steep ground. Plus,the action of the butt off the stump on the humboldt is most satisfying, esp. when it comes to spanning steep draws in SMZs- by getting the butt to hit first you save out stem that would definately break otherwise, and for jumping the butt downhill to get the stem to lay more sidehill, and on and on.

I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you are giving the other methods their due credit. I'll defend the merits of open face bore cutting where appropriate, esp. for training or improving fallers, but once that method is mastered its time to move on to more technique.

Hammerlogging, we are good, and it is a good discussion. I am not against other methods, I guess I/we have just figured out how to get done what we need to get done with the borecut and different variations of it. I honestly don't know what the GOL teaches about the borecut as I have never been to one, but maybe it isn't quite how we do it. For instance, like I said before I can and do routinely "gut out" a tree and will never use a plunge cut or the top of the bar, yet I can leave a backstrap and release the tree exactly when I want to. As to directional falling with it, if we need more "pull" we under cut which ever side of the hinge a little and get the tree to sit on that side a little more then cut the backstrap from the opposite side and she goes where you want it to go.

Anyways, it has just always seems interesting to me that almost like a knee jerk reaction there is an almost hatred of the bore cut, and then some weird explainations as to why it is so slow, when from how I look at it, it is or can be faster and safer than several of the more loved methods.

Like this T cut and V cut that Gasoline's chart shows?? How is that not cutting from multiple sides and multiple cuts, how is it safer or faster than a bore cut, that is not to say it doesn't work, but if I'm cutting down a $1,000+ tree, I'd sure like to know there isn't any way in heck there is going to be any fiber pull or chance of splitting, you can get that guaranteed with a bore cut, but not so much with various T and V cutting methods ......... my opinion.

Sam

 

[hammerlogging]

10/4 bud.

 

[056kid]

trees out west are slightly larger. . . Cutting humboldt stumps throwing timber side hill dosent waste wood on the stump and is quicker than you make it out to be. I can cut a stump about 5 inches on the up hill side with a humboldt pretty easily. 5 inches is pretty darn low imo.


Its :deadhorse: with some though.

 

[MURT]

Hey I've tramped 48 states and most of Canada at last count so I think I can give some reference here...... there's steep hills in the East Coast and steep Hills in the West....yes there are cliffs out East, a cliff is a 90 degree slope, you cant get much steeper than that.
One other thing that doesn't vary coast-to-coast is that there's ignorant local types with small penises who think their way is the best and try to make up for their inferiority by getting all agressive and making napoleon-complex comments like "come over here and you'll get your ass kicked by the loggers HERE blah blah blah". Show some maturity, folks. Nobody's getting beat up over the internet.

It's kind of like when people say we're the greatest country in the world. Sure we very well could be but have you ever even been to another country? If not, how do ya know they aren't better? What's your frame of reference? So don't make assumptions unless you've worked east coast too......

 

[Metals406]

An interesting perspective. . . Not saying he's right or wrong. My bro is a lineman, and they were trained to small notch when clearing.

To each his own I say.

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[Slamm]

Metals406, that video sure explains, the notch issue from my point of view to a T.

Thanks,

Sam

 

[056kid]

Hey I've tramped 48 states and most of Canada at last count so I think I can give some reference here...... there's steep hills in the East Coast and steep Hills in the West....yes there are cliffs out East, a cliff is a 90 degree slope, you cant get much steeper than that.
One other thing that doesn't vary coast-to-coast is that there's ignorant local types with small penises who think their way is the best and try to make up for their inferiority by getting all agressive and making napoleon-complex comments like "come over here and you'll get your ass kicked by the loggers HERE blah blah blah". Show some maturity, folks. Nobody's getting beat up over the internet.

It's kind of like when people say we're the greatest country in the world. Sure we very well could be but have you ever even been to another country? If not, how do ya know they aren't better? What's your frame of reference? So don't make assumptions unless you've worked east coast too......

You rock! lmao. . .


wrong. No ones getting beat up, they are getting out worked LOL.

 

[Metals406]

Metals406, that video sure explains, the notch issue from my point of view to a T.

Thanks,

Sam

Like I said, I say we give grown men the choice to operate the way they chose. . . I won't enslave others, and I sure as hell wouldn't let someone enslave me.

Daniel uses a lot of techniques, and that's one of them. You can see in his video that the hinge was sufficient for the spar.

I personally want to have as many tricks in my bag as I can get, so I can employ them when needed.

The old saying, "one trick pony" is around for a reason.