Buying a "Senior Saw" :comparison thread- Echo CS361P,Stihl MS241CM, Husqvarna 543XP

[Philip Wheelock]

I doubt I have a warranty on a pawnshop saw that's been run a bit?...

Of course. You probably also know that these newer Stihls take for-ev-er to develop full power. That was certainly my experience with my ms261.

 

[7sleeper]

...

There are two main sources of emissions on chainsaws, which are primarily unburned fuel going out the exhaust. The first is scavenging losses due to the exhaust port being open while the fresh charge is entering the cylinder, and the second is the poor fuel control of conventional all position carbs. A cat does absolutely nothing to address the cause of these emissions, rather it just burns up some of the wasted fuel in the muffler, turning it into heat not mechanical energy. It's a poor band aid at best, and it also is restrictive and gets very hot (especially if you enrich the mixture).
Of course you are right that often conventional 2 stroke technology is less fuel efficient compared to strato design(companies speak of 20% less, realistically I assume 15%). Although that of course is not always true. F.e. there is a tests that has shown the dolmar 421 (conventional 2 stroke) to require LESS fuel than the Husqvarna 445 (modern strato design engine) and only slightly more than a Stihl 251.
Why is this the case? I donot know, but the test (done btw. by a review magazine in the Stihl labarotories) does seem valid, as many have reported similar experiences. So I see engineering in conventional 2 stroke technology still not as obsolet. And it only reflects how sloppy some companies work although they have "advanced" technology.

I do not believe there are any Stihl or Husqvarna (or Poulan) saws that still have cats. Instead they use strato and often feedback carbs on the high volume models, and often they can get away without either on the bigger, lower volume units.
Don't know how it is in the US, but here all companies have a certain amount of "environment points" that they can use on the saws they sell. They produce environmentally friendly models so that other models can still be produced convetinally.
Why do they do it? I cannot say, but only assume, although they posses the patent rights, it simply is not worth it for them! And what is really funny about it is that it is typically on those models(large cc saws) where strato would REALLY benefit the environment and lead to substancial fuel savings!!!
Further low volume producers (the reason the chinese copies come with a million different names for the same saw) are still excluded from the environment checks.

Manufacturers that cannot or will not pay to develop or license the technologies that actually reduce wasted fuel are left with trying to reduce scavenging losses through modified conventional porting, setting the carbs as lean as they can, and stuffing a cat on the exhaust to burn up what still comes out.
I see it a little different. The cat fullfill's for me a slightly different role. It not only burns "unburnt" hydrocarbons but also carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides. How far I can not say. But in this area the glorified strato design still pumps out the carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides without any effect on them at all while the decated conventional engine would only be pumping out more unburnt fuel. How much that really is I cannot say. I will add although that the main reason for headaches in the two stroke engine area is certainly carbon monoxide.

7

 

[Chris-PA]

there is a tests that has shown the dolmar 421 (conventional 2 stroke) to require LESS fuel than the Husqvarna 445 (modern strato design engine) and only slightly more than a Stihl 251.

I look at strato as a performance improvement. Because it's mostly air going into the cylinder during much of the time the exhaust is open, you are free to adjust port timing for better performance. I don't know how this test was done, but the only real way to do such tests is to run the engines on a dyno and measure power, efficiency and fuel used. I don't have much doubt that the major manufacturers have all done just that, and I would bet that there's a reason Stihl and Huqvarna have spent so much on strato and feedback carbs (either developing it or licensing it). Heck, even Dolmar is developing their own strato system, and Echo has a strato saw.

Don't know how it is in the US, but here all companies have a certain amount of "environment points" that they can use on the saws they sell. They produce environmentally friendly models so that other models can still be produced convetinally.

I think it is essentially the same here - so they put the tighter emission controls on the high volume consumer stuff so they can have a freer hand on high performance models.

I see it a little different. The cat fullfill's for me a slightly different role. It not only burns "unburnt" hydrocarbons but also carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides. How far I can not say. But in this area the glorified strato design still pumps out the carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides without any effect on them at all while the decated conventional engine would only be pumping out more unburnt fuel. How much that really is I cannot say. I will add although that the main reason for headaches in the two stroke engine area is certainly carbon monoxide.

I'm not sure what material these catalysts are, but they are simple one stage units. Not at all like what would be found on an automobile. Then they are downstream of a fuel system that is dreadfully inaccurate, creating very rich mixtures much of the time (even if set correctly under load). I suspect they're just trying to burn up some extra HC to stay under the limit.

I think the emissions limits are clearly way too weak, as they can be met with fuel systems as bad as these conventional carbs. Every cheap Poulan is strato, but not AutoTune - you have to pay for that. Yet if you go down the toy isle at any big box store you'll find lots of stuff much more complex and costly than AT/MT - most likely it's higher grade electronic components and assembly, but it's still cheap. They could easily put it on everything, but don't have to.

 

[kantuckid]

As a non Prius guy(they look like crap) my new Ford F-150 V8 does in fact appreciate what they do for it's spot in the CAFE scheme of things.
Looks like I could get some carbon credits from my tree farm acres of timberland and use them to hotrod my new saw?
I see not so much difference in the Euro approach than CAFE here in USA. I do see a lot of diesels in Europe that smoke more than my orange tractor. In Mexico they'll actually fog you off the road when following on a MC.
Now, back to saving the earth...one chainsaw at a time

 

[Chris-PA]

As a non Prius guy(they look like crap) my new Ford F-150 V8 does in fact appreciate what they do for it's spot in the CAFE scheme of things.
Looks like I could get some carbon credits from my tree farm acres of timberland and use them to hotrod my new saw?
I see not so much difference in the Euro approach than CAFE here in USA. I do see a lot of diesels in Europe that smoke more than my orange tractor. In Mexico they'll actually fog you off the road when following on a MC.
Now, back to saving the earth...one chainsaw at a time

That saw you just bought is an impressive little machine and has all the latest stuff (none of it developed by Stihl, but at least they paid to use it). All of it was originally designed to meet emissions requirements, but it improves performance and efficiency as well. Just like the V8 on your F150.

The strato engine and the feedback carbs are mechanically very simple, but effective. They are elegant and clever engineering, which is why I appreciate the designs.

 

[bikemike]

There are two main sources of emissions on chainsaws, which are primarily unburned fuel going out the exhaust. The first is scavenging losses due to the exhaust port being open while the fresh charge is entering the cylinder, and the second is the poor fuel control of conventional all position carbs. A cat does absolutely nothing to address the cause of these emissions, rather it just burns up some of the wasted fuel in the muffler, turning it into heat not mechanical energy. It's a poor band aid at best, and it also is restrictive and gets very hot (especially if you enrich the mixture).
Of course you are right that often conventional 2 stroke technology is less fuel efficient compared to strato design(companies speak of 20% less, realistically I assume 15%). Although that of course is not always true. F.e. there is a tests that has shown the dolmar 421 (conventional 2 stroke) to require LESS fuel than the Husqvarna 445 (modern strato design engine) and only slightly more than a Stihl 251.
Why is this the case? I donot know, but the test (done btw. by a review magazine in the Stihl labarotories) does seem valid, as many have reported similar experiences. So I see engineering in conventional 2 stroke technology still not as obsolet. And it only reflects how sloppy some companies work although they have "advanced" technology.

I do not believe there are any Stihl or Husqvarna (or Poulan) saws that still have cats. Instead they use strato and often feedback carbs on the high volume models, and often they can get away without either on the bigger, lower volume units.
Don't know how it is in the US, but here all companies have a certain amount of "environment points" that they can use on the saws they sell. They produce environmentally friendly models so that other models can still be produced convetinally.
Why do they do it? I cannot say, but only assume, although they posses the patent rights, it simply is not worth it for them! And what is really funny about it is that it is typically on those models(large cc saws) where strato would REALLY benefit the environment and lead to substancial fuel savings!!!
Further low volume producers (the reason the chinese copies come with a million different names for the same saw) are still excluded from the environment checks.

Manufacturers that cannot or will not pay to develop or license the technologies that actually reduce wasted fuel are left with trying to reduce scavenging losses through modified conventional porting, setting the carbs as lean as they can, and stuffing a cat on the exhaust to burn up what still comes out.
I see it a little different. The cat fullfill's for me a slightly different role. It not only burns "unburnt" hydrocarbons but also carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides. How far I can not say. But in this area the glorified strato design still pumps out the carbon monoxides and nitrogen oxides without any effect on them at all while the decated conventional engine would only be pumping out more unburnt fuel. How much that really is I cannot say. I will add although that the main reason for headaches in the two stroke engine area is certainly carbon monoxide.

7

Bigger carbs and run alcohol sure it's tough on cold starts, uses more haul, but burns very clean and waisted fuel is environmentally friendly than today's fuel. Moonshine can be made in very big batches.

 

[Franny K]

That saw you just bought is an impressive little machine and has all the latest stuff (none of it developed by Stihl, but at least they paid to use it). All of it was originally designed to meet emissions requirements, but it improves performance and efficiency as well. Just like the V8 on your F150.

The strato engine and the feedback carbs are mechanically very simple, but effective. They are elegant and clever engineering, which is why I appreciate the designs.

I thought you have posted on here how that ms241 is not as advanced as some strato Poulans. (at least in the porting aspect) The carburetor is of the type with an upper and lower single opening instead of the more advanced one carb and one air only opening. Stihl gets more power per cc out of the 261.

As to the V8 in an Ford F150 like the one I have have which is flex fuel though I have never seen a E85 station and someone tried to help me find one and it would have been a 100 mile detour from any routes I often travel. Kind of like Stihl putting strato on some saws and a low compliance number and smelly exhaust on my two cycle drill BT45. The Ford eco boost (twin turbo direct injection) is not flex fuel.

I think that 241 has a compression release but no easy start like design in the pull rope assembly.

 

[Chris-PA]

I thought you have posted on here how that ms241 is not as advanced as some strato Poulans. (at least in the porting aspect) The carburetor is of the type with an upper and lower single opening instead of the more advanced one carb and one air only opening. Stihl gets more power per cc out of the 261.

The twin path strato carbs are probably the way things will go, as they are simpler (=cheaper) and smaller. They eliminate the one extra moving part required for strato. What you don't get is the ability to have the strato air valve open separately, which effectively allows different port timing at idle and WOT. Also, with a separate air valve there is never fuel mixed into the strato air path.

With a twin path /single throttle plate carb obviously both open together, and until the throttle is completely open the paths are not really separate so you could get some fuel in both air paths.

Nonetheless the strato system will still reduce wasted fuel from scavenging losses, at least at WOT where it usually runs. I think Husqvarna uses the twin path carb too?

As to the 261, I don't really know much about that design. Does it have a separate strato air valve? The important measure is really power output for fuel used - displacement isn't all that important.

 

[kantuckid]

Bikemike(that should be my handle? as I'm a mike that bikes?)
Anyway, since you have yer mind fixed on moonshine for fuel I'll share this tidbit: My FIL and everyone in his family were in the oil/gas business in E KY , also WV,OH & TN. He said during the depression they used to distill/cook off crude oil into a rough version of gasoline that would run prewar engines. In my short time in KY since coming here at age 30 in 1973 I've known several shiners, not all of whom did it as their day job/profession. I know not one these days, they either quit or died.
Guy commenting on e85 fuel above-the economy it offers is horrible thus it really has little to offer. Plus in todays oil market it's actually higher than 87 near me. Only an idiot would buy the stuff much less drive to get it?

 

[bikemike]

Bikemike(that should be my handle? as I'm a mike that bikes?)
Anyway, since you have yer mind fixed on moonshine for fuel I'll share this tidbit: My FIL and everyone in his family were in the oil/gas business in E KY , also WV,OH & TN. He said during the depression they used to distill/cook off crude oil into a rough version of gasoline that would run prewar engines. In my short time in KY since coming here at age 30 in 1973 I've known several shiners, not all of whom did it as their day job/profession. I know not one these days, they either quit or died.
Guy commenting on e85 fuel above-the economy it offers is horrible thus it really has little to offer. Plus in todays oil market it's actually higher than 87 near me. Only an idiot would buy the stuff much less drive to get it?

Oh yeah I had some good shine in the hills of East Tennessee.

 

[kantuckid]

Carpentry teacher I worked with from Elliot Co KY (home of Dwight Yocum! -Ricky Scaggs lived nearby) gave me some double distilled apple brandy once. You could still smell apples! Much/nothing like brandy from a store! He was an old time guy, master carpenter, mechanic,farmer, sawmill head sawyer, head of bee keeprs org, so on. His PHD BIL would take it to state capital, Frankfort,KY and "buy favors" with the juice. Me i actually don't like that kinda juice... I'm more of a wino/brewski guy in retirement from inbibing-Milo's Tea from Birmingham,AL is my drink! Wally world or Krogers!

 

[Franny K]

My point about the E85 was just in noting a similarity of putting the more complicated stuff on some models an not on others. It does not appear I need the larger injectors or anything else needed on that vehicle to do E85.

Racing alcohol is methanol. Be careful when discussing running alcohol in an engine.

 

[bikemike]

I did try some r/c plane fuel in a crapsman saw it ran but the carb jet would not deliver enough fuel to the engine for a proper tune. Best part is it would not shut off after it was hot. Had to choke it to kill it. Shire takes a while for that stuff to fully leave the system for the saw to be re tuned. Since the saw didn't roast I set it up for my 10 yr son and he loves running it

 

[Chris J.]

It sounds like you made a good deal on the 241. With you being a former wrencher who understands maintenance, and most likely knows when to give an engine a break, it'll probably last many years.


I don't know if anyone could make moonshine for profit, unless they sold it as a novelty with a really high price tag, maybe to some idiot tourist from Texas . Back when I quit drinking a 1.75L bottle of vodka could be had for $9.00 at the right chain liquor stores, and it wasn't that much more expensive at the small independent stores. And the price hasn't gone up much in the last eight years.

 

[kantuckid]

I make maple syrup which isn't exactly a get rich quick scheme-maybe a bit like like shine in that respect. Old saying in KY that if you "go to the woods to make make a living", yer earning your money! Texas is my pass through spot when I ride Mexico in the winter. Where's the "abyss"?

 

[Chris J.]

I make maple syrup which isn't exactly a get rich quick scheme-maybe a bit like like shine in that respect. Old saying in KY that if you "go to the woods to make make a living", yer earning your money! Texas is my pass through spot when I ride Mexico in the winter. Where's the "abyss"?

The concrete and traffic choked abyss known as Houston.

Back in Oklahoma my dad & his brothers used to get moonshine from one of the local fellows who worked for their father as a farmhand. He made it himself, and would "bury" the still in an underground shed when things got hot. The local police let him be, but the feds would nose around occasionally. I don't know when he stopped making it, but he had some on hand as late as around 1968.

 

[kantuckid]

When doing a winter Mexico ride I do the newish bypass around Austin(one where I can "avoid the fees"-ha!) and I also have a route around Houston (I enjoy not going there and KC Chiefs beating them a lot!-HAHA!) that a guy there gave me as his "back to the burbs" daily thing. I have "been" in H,TX and was bumper to bumper the whole time,yuk.

 

[4evergreen]

I have two Stihl ms250's with easy start. Saves on spare parts. Love the Easy Start, having old worn out shoulders, I can cut all day. Sometime around 2010-2015 Stihl changed the manufacturing spec's on the heat treating of the wind-up spring in the easy start spring housing. Now the fixed end of the spring is "softer" allowing it to slightly bend and excape it's intended anchor position. Once the fixed end of the spring is no longer "FIXED" the spring will no longer wind-up. Therefore there is no torque and the engine doesn't start. $31 for every Spring Housing and I'm back cutting for as soon as one tank of gas or two weeks. I do the "wind-up" just like winding a clock...every, very gently and then bang...spring is ripped out of the fixed location of the spring. Is Husqvarna Smart Start any better?