now i think about it HAND FILING i guess the last few strokes i do hold file up to catch the top edge and see the top start to flake,then know iam there,it just comes nature after all the years...lol....dont even think about it when i doing it
Chain Filing Height
- Thread starter Philbert
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lambs
Stihl crazy after all these years
I do the same most of the time, but lately I've been making that last grinding pass a little higher to produce a little more hook. Can't say that I can tell a big difference though. As long as I've ground out all of the dinged corner at the top / side plate and got my depth guages at about 5 or 6 degrees drop, my 046 is a happy camper.
Frogfarmer
ArboristSite Operative
I was all in till they posted the pics with the cutters upside down. I never could stand on my head.
Full disclosure first - I am lousy at sharpening chains - doesn't matter free hand, two way file (or whatever you call the double file tool that lowers the depth guides as you sharpen), Timberline, roller guide or grinder - but FWIW once I started grinding as if the wheel was a file (i.e. as Philbert and Del illustrated) my ground chisel chains cut noticeably better and longer than when I ground low enough to keep a clean gullet. I have Mark Heimannm (a dyed in the wool semi-chisel man) to thank for pointing me in that direction. Ron
spindrift7mm
Changing the World One Saw at a time !
Del try drawing aline at 90* to your line thru the center of the grinding wheel, this is the line of travel of the wheel. This is the reason the angle does NOT change, travel angle and grind angle are the same ! Filing and grinding are two completely different ways of getting the job done which is why you can't compare the methods. After posting yesterday I went to my grinder and tested something else, guess what the profile of the wheel don't matter either if you deep grind. Stop and ask yourself what does the profile have to do with the angles, nothing cause its past the cutter. So then I ground some .325 skip with a 3/16 th wheel, cuts as good or better cause the gullet is opened up. Not telling anyone to change a thing just think this stuff thru and try new stuff. Ken
There are several guys on this site that remark how they get a much better edge filing than grinding. There are also guys who say that it makes no difference if you grind with the flat of the wheel. I don't know if these are the same guys. But if you like how your chain cuts when filed with a round file, you should grind with the round part of the wheel. If you like how your chain cuts when ground with the flat side of the wheel, you should try filing with a flat file*.
*Just because it will come up, I am not talking about square filed/ground chain - that is a different animal with specific corner profiles, and typically a vertical side plate which enters the cut early on , not the deep hook obtained by taking the round profiled wheel down into the gullet.
Again, these are just sketches, and not exactly to scale. Note the difference in the top edge shape if ground with the profiled part of the wheel or the flat part. Note how the deep grind pushes the side plate cutting edge back, delaying it's entry into the cut, and makes the upper portion of the side plate edge (the part that does the work) flat, instead of a curved edge.
The point starts the cut, but it is the two edges that do the cutting. The hook is less pronounced in semi-chisel chain due to the lack of that sharp point, and looks 'funny' to guys used to full chisel chain. If you like how your chain is filed/ground a certain way, that's great. But there is a significant difference in the profile of both cutting edges.
I grind the cutters as shown in the first illustration, and clean out the gullets separately (when needed) to maintain that first profile.
Philbert
*Just because it will come up, I am not talking about square filed/ground chain - that is a different animal with specific corner profiles, and typically a vertical side plate which enters the cut early on , not the deep hook obtained by taking the round profiled wheel down into the gullet.
Again, these are just sketches, and not exactly to scale. Note the difference in the top edge shape if ground with the profiled part of the wheel or the flat part. Note how the deep grind pushes the side plate cutting edge back, delaying it's entry into the cut, and makes the upper portion of the side plate edge (the part that does the work) flat, instead of a curved edge.
The point starts the cut, but it is the two edges that do the cutting. The hook is less pronounced in semi-chisel chain due to the lack of that sharp point, and looks 'funny' to guys used to full chisel chain. If you like how your chain is filed/ground a certain way, that's great. But there is a significant difference in the profile of both cutting edges.
I grind the cutters as shown in the first illustration, and clean out the gullets separately (when needed) to maintain that first profile.
Philbert
It would be interesting to try some conventional chains with a square edged wheel. There would be a sharp corner in there somewhere!
Philbert
Philbert, thanks for your second post back. While reading the other posts, I was trying to figure out how to post a drawing so I could illustrate what is happening as you go lower with the wheel. You saved me the trouble. As Mark H. explained in another thread, you lose the hook when you grind deep. Your pictures illustrate that well. My limited experience validated to me that it is best for me to grind as shown although it is sometimes difficult for me to precisely read the profile of my "diamond" wheel. As you know, you can clean the gullet in another step. Ron
Brush Ape, I am not familiar with that grinder: I know you have posted photos of it before. Can you show us a few step-by-step photos of what/how you do chains on that?
Thanks.
Thanks.
cabin hunter
ArboristSite Lurker
I would also love to see how you set the machine . I have 1 of the older model but have not learned how to set that part up . I got it at a garage sell with no books
jdhacker
ArboristSite Operative
This is what I do, and have no problems.
I am very happy with my filed chains but unhappy with my ground chains. I grind very gently and shallow but I over heat the tooth. The chain is sharp but the tooth can come out really hard. I seldom use a grinder anymore. BTW I only use Stihl 13/64 on 3/8 chain nowadays.
sachsmo
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hmmm,
On a rocked chain, I have had smoke coming off the file (shavings), never overheated it though.
My filing is unconventional at best but seems to get the job done.
I go just until I feel the hardness, then a couple swipes for good measure (should feel like glass)
The 'out of the box' chains I used to cherish seem errrr, lacking since I got a handle on filing?
On a rocked chain, I have had smoke coming off the file (shavings), never overheated it though.
My filing is unconventional at best but seems to get the job done.
I go just until I feel the hardness, then a couple swipes for good measure (should feel like glass)
The 'out of the box' chains I used to cherish seem errrr, lacking since I got a handle on filing?
What I have been trying to say is that you should be able to get the same cutter profile with a file or a grinder.
If you are overheating, try taking shorter 'taps' and dress the wheel more frequently.
Philbert
psgflier
ArboristSite Member
The term "raker" is probably a holdover from those of us who used and/or sharpened hand saws or were taught by those who did. On those there were two opposing teeth sharpened to a point that cut across the grain on each side of the cut, then a tooth that cut out the chip between cuts and acted as a depth gauge, kind of like the store-bought rip chain.
If you want to understand how a chain works, hand cut a dado or lap joint. I don't know if anyone other than Roy Underhill knows how to do that anymore. The sides of the dado are cut down to depth with a saw, and the meat is pared out with a chisel. That's the way a chain works, the point enters the wood controlled by the depth gauge, the side plate shears the cross grain like the hand saw in a dado, and the top plate pares out the chip.
A sharp chain pulls itself into the wood. If you have to put pressure on the saw to cut, dog it in, whatever, the chain is dull and it's time to sharpen. If the chain pulls itself in so fast that it hangs up or binds, either there is too much hook, or the rakers are to deep.
If you have real long chips, and it feeds ok to start, then slows down, there is probably too much hook. If it cuts ok, but the chips are short, the rakers need to be deeper. If you get short or powdery chips and have to push the cut, the top plate is too blunt(file held too high).
If your in clean wood, and can't run a tank of gas before you have to start dogging the saw in, your sharpening technique needs to be re-examined.
If you want to understand how a chain works, hand cut a dado or lap joint. I don't know if anyone other than Roy Underhill knows how to do that anymore. The sides of the dado are cut down to depth with a saw, and the meat is pared out with a chisel. That's the way a chain works, the point enters the wood controlled by the depth gauge, the side plate shears the cross grain like the hand saw in a dado, and the top plate pares out the chip.
A sharp chain pulls itself into the wood. If you have to put pressure on the saw to cut, dog it in, whatever, the chain is dull and it's time to sharpen. If the chain pulls itself in so fast that it hangs up or binds, either there is too much hook, or the rakers are to deep.
If you have real long chips, and it feeds ok to start, then slows down, there is probably too much hook. If it cuts ok, but the chips are short, the rakers need to be deeper. If you get short or powdery chips and have to push the cut, the top plate is too blunt(file held too high).
If your in clean wood, and can't run a tank of gas before you have to start dogging the saw in, your sharpening technique needs to be re-examined.
Absolutely. On some crosscut saw patterns the raker is located across the gullet from the cutters, and was sharpened and adjusted separately.
Easy to see how this term was applied to the depth gauge on modern saw chain (compare this illustration with the one in Post #18).
I try to call it the 'depth gauge' because that makes it clear what it does. But I still slip and call it a 'raker' sometimes.
Philbert
PS - in case anyone is not familiar with these crosscut saws, they cut in both directions, unlike a chainsaw chain.
Termite
Time To Launch
If you don't like a sawchip rainbow, stay on the porch, Boss.
Sorry, this is what's left after 30-35 cuts through 25" White Oak.
Why are you cutting up that good looking white oak into little pieces? It would bring $1.40 a foot at the stave mill. I took them some real trash and got $1.13.
psgflier
ArboristSite Member
Good show on the illustration. That was the type of saw I learned to sharpen. Funny thing about sharpening them is the first thing done was to file all the teeth across the top down to the rakers, then sharpen and set the teeth. The rakers while filed,were actually swaged sharp, which also set the depth of cut. Imagine sharpening a chainsaw chain with a hammer.
Not to high jack your thread, but I was looking at an older thread about down angle on the file.
When I learned to file, it was on chipper chain, top plate angle and tooth profile(hook) was the important part. Things changed when the semi chisel and chisel chains came out. Oregon sent reps out into the brush to sell the chain and teach people how to use it.
Added to the other profiles was the 10deg angle to horizontal to the file. Filing from the inside of the tooth to the outside, the heel of the file, or the handle, was to be held down 10deg.
On the chisel bit chains, the most important part is the point, or the junction between the top plate and the side plate. Holding an angle on the file puts the correct profile on the point by making a straight line from the inside junction of the top plate and side plate to the tip.
The sharp point is why chisel chain cut so much faster than chipper chain, and also why it dulls faster.
This came home to me a couple of days ago when I was teaching myself to square file chisel chain.
A rule of thumb I was taught was: file/grind full-chisel chain with a 10 degree 'down angle'; file/grind semi-chisel chain at 0 degrees (sometimes called 90 degrees).
But, if you look at some of Oregon's recommendations (see attached PDF files), they recommend the 10 degrees for many of their chains, including several semi-chisel chains. At the same time, they tell you that when you are using their standard, flat file guide, you should only file at 0 degrees, for any type of chain, because that guide is meant to ride on the top plate of the cutter, holding the file at the correct depth.
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/GrindingAngles.pdf
I think that it is the user's call. I have been told by technical reps that it absolutely makes a difference. I have heard from several users who don't think that the difference is significant, or worth the extra effort (a few additional steps when grinding).
Either way, it applies to the top plate cutting edge, not the gullet, so it is appropriate to mention in this thread.
Philbert
814hammer
arboristSite member
I. Don't get were your saying if you go all way to strap or not how that changes the hook unless your not even going past the radius of the grinding wheel then I can see it I guess it that all further your going on your last grind then is staying in radius of wheel
