chipper nightmare

[NeTree]

juststumps...

Why wouldn't a "machine shop" already have magnaflux/etc on hand anyways?

 

[spacemule]

no, i wouldn't blame the shop..they did what the customer asked them to do. did their work cause the failure,or was it a already existing flaw in the machine???

The point is that this was a professional place that told him what they could do and then failed to do it. In any kind of business dealing with equipment the average person doens't work on, the provider of the service has an obligation to tell the customer if the repairs are not likely to work and give an accurate estimate. The customer is not the expert--the machine shop is supposed to be. From priest's words, this guy misled him about his chipper repair experience. This repair came out to 3 times his high-end estimate, and didn't work. That is not acceptable in any profession. You act as if M&M not working on it is a bad thing, that the shop did good to work on it. If the thing was irreparable, why did the shop work on it? Why was it good for the shop to follow impossible instructions--according to your assesment?

If a customer brings a gas tank into a machine shop and instructs the welder to cut into the tank and weld on a new bracket, the welder follows the instructions, and the tank is destroyed from the resultant explosion (along with the welder), who is responsible? Should not the welder, who is the professional, be held fiscally and morally responsible for following the customer's wishes even though they were reckless? The professional service provider is supposed to be the one with the knowledge, not the other way around. If everyone were an expert, there would be no service based businesses.

 

[NeTree]

Mule... ain't that why we don't top trees?

 

[Lumberjack]

Mule made some good points, as did Eric.

Magnaflux aint that exspensive is it Eric? Hell just some dyed powered iron and a stout magnet (over simplified).

The shop is responsible. Same way that a company is resonsible for topping a tree, and a contractor for digging a trench 6' from a 4.5'DBH oak. Both damaged the tree beyond repair. Both are responsible. The shop is responsible for their work.

 

[NeTree]

No, MagnaFlux is pretty cheap. And yeah, that's basically it. Most forms use an aerosol powder and a big electromagnet.

I do agree with Mule, and I think Ralph is on the right track.

 

[priest]

Sorry for the lack of response to all the good comments. Busy season is on.

I was mistaken the last time about the .005 inches-I was a few beers into a case that night. They actually or at least said they set them to within .005 inches of .030 inches, which they said were manufacturer's specs. In the machine shop guys words when I dropped the thing off he said "you want them so close they're are just ???? near clicking the anvil". Yeah, they clicked it all right.

I think you all are right about them being set too close. And as far as tightening the bolts, it says on the underside of the lid to tighten to 125-150 ft-lbs. When I was around that day they never put a torque wrench on them-just tightened them tell they were tight. I should have asked them about that too, I just didn't think about it at the time.

But when I'm out doing whatever it is we arborists do I don't expect the client to think of everything for me, I don't generally have to borrow their tools, and I stick to my initial estimate no matter how ugly it gets.

One time when I first started the business I severely underbid a huge Siberian Elm removal that was over a book store, neighboring house, the intersection of three fences, three different sets of powerlines, cable wires, and telephone wires. I didn't have the equipment or the expertise or the manpower to do the job. I bid it at $625. It took four days. Paid a guy $60 to repair the hole I put in the roof of the house. I ate the loss, and the guy was forever grateful for it. He is now one of my good clients. Just finished a job for him yesterday, and he refers me every chance he has.

It seems to me that if you treat people fairly, you become the exception to the rule and pretty soon your phone won't quit ringing and everybody wins.

Thanks for taking the time for all the great advice. This site is an outstanding resource and I've been really impressed.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I can't believe an AS member drinks beer. I'm so disappointed!!!

 

[priest]

Ummm......beeeeer

 

[Stumper]

I think you all are right about them being set too close. And as far as tightening the bolts, it says on the underside of the lid to tighten to 125-150 ft-lbs. When I was around that day they never put a torque wrench on them-just tightened them tell they were tight. I should have asked them about that too, I just didn't think about it at the time.

Great flaming hemorroids! A machine shop that tightens high torque spec bolts " just till they are tight". My calibrated elbow works pretty good to gauge 18-22 ft lbs for spark plugs. There is a rule of thumb that says 90 ft lbs is about all the average man can get with a standard ratchet handle (hardly precise but at least a ballpark figure) Any machine shop that doesn't torque 125 torque speced bolts to specs with a proper measuring device is criminally negligent!

 

[priest]

Yeah that place sucks.

Since we've dwelled on it for so long I guess I could throw some pictures of the chipper on here (first time I've tried this, so I hope I do it right). I'll go take a picture of the holes where the knife fragments ejected right now before it gets too dark. You will cringe.

 

[Lawn Masters]

All I can say about that is HOLY CRAP! I'm amazed the knives didnt hit the engine block, or anyone standing within 200' of that thing. otherwise it looks nice. probably a new drum, and some metal welded over the holes in the chute, and you'll be in buisness. and dont set the knives so close next time.

 

[priest]

I wonder how many benjamins for a new drum. I've talked to one manufacturer--I'll call him Monday and find out. The engine runs great and I've put so much into that darn thing (new engine housing, new alternator, new bulldog jack and safety chains, balancing weights, coat after coat of white primer and paint, new alternator, new gauges, one new tire, new bearings, two sets of knives, and on and on).

If I can't get it fixed I might be looking to sell it real soon. It chips like a beast when its not flying apart. 15 foot limb, six inch diameter, chunk it in, WAAAAAA, 1.5 seconds and it's vaporized.

BTW, I've also got a bunch of beat up chipper knives available. They make a great trot line weight and are on sale now for five bucks a pop.

Warning: knives can be dangerous at high velocities.

Heres a picture of the drum for those of you have been wondering what it looks like. And a picture of the knife/wedge assembly.

 

[Lumberjack]

For 2k bucks I woulda used new bolts on the teeth. Cheap insurance there.

Cant see too much, or know what I am lookin for, but the drum doesnt look that bad to me.

 

[Lawn Masters]

2nd pic is too big and too blurry to distinguish anything.

 

[NWCS]

i have never run or worked on a chipper before.. but that drum looks JUNK to me! lots of visible damage in the pic, and i bet a LOT more. replace the drum and anvil. inspect all bearings, check for runout, run it good id check all the structural mounts too, see if a weld is broke somewhere that a bearing may bolt to.. with a new drum/anvil and adjusted to factory spec i cant see how it would throw a knife.. with that drum in it now, yep i can see it tossing them. dump that drum asap. heck even if you sell it id still throw the drum away and sell it needing a drum..

 

[Lumberjack]

I think its a bit harsh. I dont see huge damage on it, but I am not familar with the make/model. It is a drum that chips would after all, some damage is normal. There are some marks that are curious to figure out if its a mark or missing metal, but a pic wont show that well, in person would.

I default to the powers at be who know these chippers and whats norm.

 

[priest]

There are numerous "divets" in the drum from it actually striking a loose anvil in one or more of its several accidents. None dip in more than 1/8 inch. I to would have to let the experts of M $ M chippers comment on whether or not that is a significant amount of material. But I do know it was working good with the drum in that condition, however it was out of balance. Now that the machine place balanced the drum (which I think that may be the one thing they actually did accomplish besides replacing the bearings), I would think that would compensate for any deficiencies in performance produced by the divets.
All I know is that I want to survive every tree I chip. Is that too much to ask?

 

[PWB]

Nope!As for coming good for the damage/repair, just common sense if these guys want your business or anyone else's. Most of my tree work is at work (municipal government) but my "beer and potato chip money" comes from an old road grader I do parking lots, driveways, horse tracks etc. with. Broke a catch basin last year first time I worked for a customer. (Got too close). Hired a backhoe operator that was working for the same guy, picked up a basin at the plant that makes them five minutes away and had it repaired before I finished the grading job. Was back that fall, and I've had several good referals in the area because of it. Just good business!

 

[darkstar]

you couldnt pay me a 1000 an hour to work near that machine

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I agree with you that the shop did not fulfill its duties, and I also agree with TreeCo that I need to just keep every one out of harms way from here on out, scrap this chipper, and buy a better one. I stopped payment on the check today and plan to talk to a lawyer in the morning and then call the machine guy.

Another consideration is that when I first contacted this machine guy and asked him if he knew how to work on chippers, he said "Oh yeah, I've worked on plenty of chippers". And then when I took it to him he told me what he thought needed to be done to make it safe, said it could be done, and told me he would charge me $50 an hour for HIS labor, which he said could get expensive if things did not go smoothly. He said it could take 10 hours, or it could take as much as 20 hours. He threw out the highball number of $1000.

Well, when I went to get it, he handed me a bill for 52 hours of labor ($2600) and an additional $300 in parts plus tax, for a total of $2996. He said he would take a third off the bill to make it $2000. At no point during the 10 days they had this beast did he contact me to warn me that they were exceeding the original estimate.

Additionally, when he called me and asked me to come "help" them install the knives so it would "go faster", I was working with one kid about 20 years old, completely clueless about chippers, not a fast learner, and probably being paid less than $10 per hour. Those were the types of employees that had done the majority of the work. They didn't even have the hex heads with a 1/2 inch drive for their air ratchet. I had to bring them that day. Nor did they have the tool to loosen the knives once the bolts were out. I brought my tool, a bolt that was stripped so it wouldn't spin as a spacer was inserted and a threaded piece of pipe screwed in behind it! They had apparently worked all those knives on and off with a little hex wrench and a cheat bar. No telling how long these guys spent trying to loosen the wedges. When I went to pick it up the first time they told me they were unable to remove two of the knives, both of which I just replaced two weeks ago myself. You talk about inefficient (at $50 per hour).
I don't know that the main man with his INFINITE KNOWLEDGE of chippers had even done any of the work himself. He was less than eager to even supervise while I was there, nor did he offer any useful advise.

I know I don't want that chipper, so it doesn't do me much good to take it back to him and tell him to fix it right. I wouldn't even feel good about selling that chipper to anyone if it was fixed, even with the appropriate warnings. I just think I'll try to keep from having to pay for the nonfix, eat my losses on downtime, and move on with my life.

And I'm not complaining too much, because at least no one got hurt.

Thanks again for your comments.

Nathan Priest

52 hours?!!!!
Did you leave it there for a week?
If they clam to be a machine shop, that should have not happened. If any thing you could go to the manufacture and have them send a new knife set and at least set it straighter then those shop rats could have.