Clearing Small Lots (long)

[lsylvain]

I have a question and I posted it in the firewood forum but havn't had much response so I thought I would post it here to see if I could do any better. I am an ex lawn care and landscape business owner and soon moving back to WV to get back into the biz. I have been trying to come up with extra winter work ideas and of course firewood is one of them. I will also be plowing snow, here is my thought.

I am thinking of buying small lots in the area and clearing them for house seats and then either flipping them or renting them out as mobile home lots. What I am trying to figure out is if it will work, naturally. Of course each lot would be different and I would have to estimate the timber, firewood, and other by products before I made a purchase. What I am hopeing will be possible is that the wood will bring in enough money to pay for my labor and other cost assosiated with clearing the lot and "fixing" it up, if you will, to resell it. Has anyone tried anything like this?

I don't want to clear lots for other people I've done it before and loved the work but hated the customer hassles. Also, with the snow plowing I try to avoid anything that will come in conflict with plowing customers. ie. if we have a big storm and I can't be clearing Customer A's lot because I have to be plowing Customer A gets pissed because I'm not getting anything done on their lot. The plowing customers have to come first since I will have contracts with them for the snow and more than likely they will also be on contract for the Lawn/Landscape end of things.

The benifits I see.
It is my property so I can do what I want when I want.
I can leave the product on site and not have to transport it back to my shop and then again on to the customer.
I could also use these lots durring the Landscape season to dump bulk products etc. (zoneing allowing)
This would also give some extra work durring the landscape season if it is slow, rain days etc.
When I sell the lot I will earn a profit on top of the profit from the wood products if any.

I have been cutting wood for as long as I can remember. The first chainsaw I got was a present from my dad for my 11th birthday. The only thing is I never did it for money, it was always just cutting for the family and friends, clearing building lots, firewood, cutting timber etc. So we never kept track of how long it took to do any of this, we just kep cutting until we had enough wood or the lot was clear or whatever.

So here are my questions.

1. Has anyone attemped to do this before and did it work?
2. How many man hours does it take to get a cord of wood from standing tree to split and stacked.
3. Is there a market for bye products (ie wood chips and crap wood) on a small scale or would it be better to just burn it all on site and not worry about it?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[daddieslilgirl]

clearing small lots

well ill probably get myself kicked off of here, but you said in your previous post that it would take 320 man hours to cut down 80 pines right? normally we do 6 trees to a skid so thats 24 log lengths a day times 4 days thats 96 logs in 4 days at approximately say 30 hours give or take a few hours. now you want to know how long it will take to cut down a tree and firewood it? am i missing something here, or am i just irate for nothing? sorry if this post offends anyone!

 

[Husky137]

Daddieslilgirl, just ignore him. He has a business degree and we are all idiots. He's cut firewood all his life but doesn't have any clue as to how long it takes him to do a cord of wood. He comes here looking for validation for his plans and gets pi$$ed off when we offer answers other than what he wants. He claims to make hundreds an hour mowing grass, apparently on the backs of his employees and isn't willing to share more than a poverty wage with them. Maybe he will get pi$$ed off and go away for 3 years again. He should stick to grass and snow.

 

[lsylvain]

Anyone have any infomation they could give me? I am hopeing to hear from Business owners or atleast foreman who can give me an idea or two about this subject.

 

[lsylvain]

Daddieslilgirl,
that post was from almost 4 years ago. I do not have a skidder so I could only pull one tree at a time out. Using your 95 trees in a week being able to pull 6 if I could only pull one at a time I could only do about 16 a week.

The post is about trying to salvage enough product from a lot to basically pay the cost of other up grades to the property. ie. cover the cost of my labor, cover the cost of removing the stumps, cover the cost of putting in a driveway, etc.

I want to figure out approximatly how long it would take to get a cord of wood so that I know how many man hours it is going to cost me and thus how many man hours I have left over to pay for ther other upgrades. For example the only other quate I have gotten is 6 man hours to cut and split a cord of wood which to me seems really high.

If you don't know the answer that is fine because I don't know it either, as I said before I never kept track of how long it took before. We just cut wood until their was no more wood to cut or we had enough stockpiled to get us through the winter. We never sat down and said well today we worked for 8 hours,took a 30 minute lunch break, but John had football practice so he only worked for 4 hours, and I had to run and feed the horses for 30 minutes this day, and Eric was being a little baby all day this day and not working hard because dad wouldln't let him go out with his friends. Granddad stoped by this dad and distracted everyone for an hour and a half.

 

[upandcommer]

I have timed it and I myself can cut split and truck a cord an hour that is going from standing trees to slash pile to be burned and a nice full 3 pickup trucks full of split wood to stack me my stihl and an 8 pounder are all the tools I require however I am 6'3" 280 pounds of man who sees no need for a cant hook when it is just as easy to roll the tree by hand.

 

[lsylvain]

Thanks upancommer! That sounds more like it. I too am a horse at 250 lbs. but I'm only 5'9." I bet every now and then you get the inkling to play Arnald S. and carry a 16"x 16' log out of the woods on your shoulder like he did in the Movie Camando. lol

Thanks

 

[lsylvain]

No other estimates of how long it takes to get a cord of wood? I have one guy at 6 man hours and another at 1 man hour per cord. That is a pretty big difference. What about bye products, ie woodchips. Is it worth going through the trouble of chipping it to sell or should I just burn it all. Or maybe it will be usefull on the site just to keep the mud down after pulling the stumps etc?

 

[Husky137]

Way too many variables to give a man hour figure like that for you. Big wood,small wood, skidder to move logs/trees or not,quality of saws,ability of men operating saws,splitting by hand or hydraulically,stacking wood in rows or dumping in a pile,processing wood at a landing or where the tree falls. Other factors involved include how long the skid is, what kind of terrain. If processing at a central location on the lot,I think it is faster to cut off the logs and toss the tops and limbs straight into the chipper.


In an ideal,race against the clock scenario, I could see a cord an hour maybe but i"m pretty sceptical about that claim. MAYBE once, but not repetitively.

 

[squisher]

A cord an hour, fell, bucked, split, cleaned up, and loaded? I've worked the bush all my life and burned wood all my life I've found size only matters with equipment not men.

 

[lsylvain]

Still only two people with input?

If you think an hour is two fast. How long would it take you?

I can see a cord an hour being possilbe depending on the size of the tree. The larger the tree the less cuts you would have to make, etc.

 

[Doctor Dave]

I have timed it and I myself can cut split and truck a cord an hour that is going from standing trees to slash pile to be burned and a nice full 3 pickup trucks full of split wood to stack me my stihl and an 8 pounder are all the tools I require however I am 6'3" 280 pounds of man who sees no need for a cant hook when it is just as easy to roll the tree by hand.

Hmmm

Fell 2 largish trees, limb, buck pile brush, throw rounds in pile...20 min.
(10 min per tree)

Split cord of wood ...........................................................20 min.

Stack cord (two loads in a Dakota-sized 6 1/2 foot bed).........20 min.

Possible, but not real likely; maybe on crank, bad for the heart, especially at your weight ( I'm the same height, around 200 lbs.). I'd give myself three hours, including a break for a beer before I load.

About the Aaaarnold "big log" thing (16 ft by 16 in), I'd bet it was faked. Green wood, no way. A single round that size, green, would be 50-100 lbs. Seasoned softwood or alder, maybe. I've carried dead alder that long that was around 1 ft. in diameter (300 lb.?) for maybe 100 ft. If you can tip up a log and get it on your shoulder, you can carry it a little ways at least. Jogging? YFKM!

BTW, I'm no Aaaaarnold, just in OK shape.

 

[clearance]

Listen up LSylvia, clearing a lot means just that, trees, stumps, brush, everything gone, just raw dirt left, you need a decent sized excavator with a a thumb, and a dump truck or rig pulling a tri-axle dump trailer. This fell, bucked,split and loaded a true 4'x4'x8' cord in one hour is an old wives tale, fishing story. Blah, blah, blah, have another one, put down the crack pipe.....

 

[squisher]

Hmmm

Fell 2 largish trees, limb, buck pile brush, throw rounds in pile...20 min.
(10 min per tree)

Split cord of wood ...........................................................20 min.

Stack cord (two loads in a Dakota-sized 6 1/2 foot bed).........20 min.

Possible, but not real likely; maybe on crank, bad for the heart, especially at your weight ( I'm the same height, around 200 lbs.). I'd give myself three hours, including a break for a beer before I load.

About the Aaaarnold "big log" thing (16 ft by 16 in), I'd bet it was faked. Green wood, no way. A single round that size, green, would be 50-100 lbs. Seasoned softwood or alder, maybe. I've carried dead alder that long that was around 1 ft. in diameter (300 lb.?) for maybe 100 ft. If you can tip up a log and get it on your shoulder, you can carry it a little ways at least. Jogging? YFKM!

BTW, I'm no Aaaaarnold, just in OK shape.

Sounds about right to me. Maybe ten minutes longer so I could have a couple of beers when I'm done.

 

[upandcommer]

I didn't say I could do more than one cord a day at this speed My current wood pile consists of 15-18 cords currently 42 feet long by 6 feet wide and 6.5 feet tall but i give the pallets that extra 1/2 foot for height, so 6 foot tall that is full the other 6 pallets are yet to be stacked with the wood i split yesterday it should fill the six pallets to about 2 feet high I would guess and all of that was cut in 3 days at 5 hours a day split in three weekends and 3 weekdays and stacked while I split by a 7 year old and a little (ok it isn't so little) all terrane wagon. THis is the haul from 23 trees me and a farmer cleaned from a fence row most in the 20" dbh and 40-60 foot range froma single fence row. The rest of the wood was taken home by my loading buddy we hauled 6 truck and trailer loads to my house and 4 to his he has 8 cords but he cheated he used his hydraulic splitter. The rest of the firewood is still laying at my parents house i cute down and bucked 3 silver maples 16" dbh and 25-30 foot high an old mulberry tree that was toppled by the 20 ton excavator that tore the barn down and some unknown to me tree that the mulberry was snagged in. THat was all cut branched brush hauled to the road for chipping and bucked and the three maples split by hand where the rounds fell in an afternoon.

 

[Doctor Dave]

I didn't say I could do more than one cord a day at this speed My current wood pile consists of 15-18 cords currently 42 feet long by 6 feet wide and 6.5 feet tall but i give the pallets that extra 1/2 foot for height, so 6 foot tall that is full the other 6 pallets are yet to be stacked with the wood i split yesterday it should fill the six pallets to about 2 feet high I would guess and all of that was cut in 3 days at 5 hours a day split in three weekends and 3 weekdays and stacked while I split by a 7 year old and a little (ok it isn't so little) all terrane wagon. THis is the haul from 23 trees me and a farmer cleaned from a fence row most in the 20" dbh and 40-60 foot range froma single fence row. The rest of the wood was taken home by my loading buddy we hauled 6 truck and trailer loads to my house and 4 to his he has 8 cords but he cheated he used his hydraulic splitter. The rest of the firewood is still laying at my parents house i cute down and bucked 3 silver maples 16" dbh and 25-30 foot high an old mulberry tree that was toppled by the 20 ton excavator that tore the barn down and some unknown to me tree that the mulberry was snagged in. THat was all cut branched brush hauled to the road for chipping and bucked and the three maples split by hand where the rounds fell in an afternoon.

Hey, I certainly believe that you enjoy cutting firewood. Maybe you should wear a watch. Maybe you should get into competitive logger skills---that's where the rubber hits the road.

 

[lsylvain]

So we are still sitting on an average time of 3 hours per Cord. Which sounds workable to me.

So say I can get $150.00 a cord less 3 hours @ $15.00 per hour = call it $100 a cord. (again this would change from lot to lot depending on what we are dealing with.) So this is what I am thinking.

I have a lot and I estimate that after the wood is cut it is going to cost me.
$1,500 to put in the driveway and grade the house seat. Another $500.00 in property taxes and other misc cost associated with the property. So I'm sitting at $2,000.

$2000 / $100 gross profit on the firewood = 20 Cords of wood needed to cover the cost of putting in the drive etc.

Then lets say I descide that I want this lot to cover 5 hours per week of labor from Nov 1st to Feb 28 about 17 weeks. 85 hours.

85 hours @ $15.00 per hour = $1275 another 13 cords.

So if I go in and estimate that there is 33 cords of wood that can be pulled from the site I buy it.

Then say the first lot cost me $20,000 I close on it Nov 1st. I go in by myself the first winter and get about 1/2 the wood ready for the next winter. 15 cords or so. Then like I said earlier once the landscaping season starts cut some here and there with my employees to give them some extrawork throughout the year and also try to build a client base for the firewood.

Then depending on the situations etc. I buy a second lot for $20,000 with the same circumstances surounding it.

I sell the 15 cords that I cut the year before for a total of 2250, which covers 150 hours of labor. So at 3 hours per cord we get 50 cords. The remaining 18 from the first site and 32 from the second. (This is excluding any work on my part.)

The first lot would be ready to sell because the 15 cords that I cut included the house seat and driveway area and had the grading done durring the summer. And the second lot is ready to grade. This gives me about a year to sell lot #1 before I need to get the cash out to buy the next lot and basically 2 years to grade and sell lot #2.

So here are the numbers. (ignoring real estate commission)

-20000 to buy the first lot.
-500 for expenses involved in cutting and selling of the first 15 Cords.
-2000 for putting in the driveway and seat.
-20000 for buying lot two.
+2250 for the sale of the first 15 cords.
-2250 for labor in cutting the 50 cords.
-2000 for drive/seat #2.
+7500 for the remaining 50 cords of wood.
-1000 for misc expenses

-47,750 total cash out for both lots.
+9,750 total cash in from both lots.

-38,000 net cash out.
Sell the lots for 25k each leaves me with $12,000 gross profit.

Remember this excludes any real estate commissions, but it also includes very little work on my part with the exception of the first 15 Cords, puting in the driveway/seat, and burning the brush if I go that route. So basically with these calculations for every cord I cut personally I save $45.00.

Also remember that this enables me to keep one employee on durring the winter months so I should be able to increase my snow and other winter landscaping profit by atleast 25%.

I don't know, I think it could work? Like I said before each lot would be different and you would have to figure the numbers on each lot before it was purchased. Maybe the problem I run into is not finding lots that actually hold enough wood and are in my price range without going through the bank.

What do you think?

 

[Doctor Dave]

So we are still sitting on an average time of 3 hours per Cord. Which sounds workable to me.

So say I can get $150.00 a cord less 3 hours @ $15.00 per hour = call it $100 a cord. (again this would change from lot to lot depending on what we are dealing with.) So this is what I am thinking.

I have a lot and I estimate that after the wood is cut it is going to cost me.
$1,500 to put in the driveway and grade the house seat. Another $500.00 in property taxes and other misc cost associated with the property. So I'm sitting at $2,000.

(snip)

etc.

What do you think?

I think that what you can count on is a good workout cutting and splittting all that wood. It might be more predictable to simply mark the trees, sell the firewood rights to someone else, and make your money on another angle. Firewood outfits have invested in all the equipment, skilled workers, have the sales end already set up, and are therefore much more efficient.

 

[lsylvain]

Unless there is something eluding me as far as equipment goes I don't see that I am missing anything.

Here is what I have now
1 - 1ton GMC 4wheel
1 - 5 ton 8 x 16 trailer
1 - 24" Husky saw
1 - 16" Stihl saw
1 - Stihl 12" saw
ropes, chains, wedges, mauls, cant hooks.

Things I am already planning on buying regardless of this idea.
good wood splitter
3/4 or 1 ton 4 wheel or possibly a small dump with a landscape body.
another trailer

Things I would/could rent/borrow/buy. personally I prefer to rent since it isn't my problem to maintain, store, and transport, but it would be nice to have a skid steer around 24-7.
Excavators
Skid Steers
Dozers
backhoes

What else would I need?

Will people actually buy firewood rights? Sounds silly when there are so many places to get it for free. If so, what are we talking about 5%, 10%.

 

[Husky137]

Firewood rights? When I pay someone for low grade stumpage, I only pay $10-$20 a cord. All the money in firewood is in the labor.