company bashing via equipment.....

[imagineero]

Another thing I noticed when the bottom fell out was a lot of guys who had financed large equipment were working dirt cheap just to make a payment on it. It helped to drive market price down. It would have been better for everyone if they had dumped their #### and cut their losses.

Amen to that!

I always get tempted to buy bigger and better gear like most folks do, but I hold myself back and continue sub contracting out those services which I need (big chipper and truck, crane, bucket etc). Sometimes it would be nice to have that gear, and I think about how if I did own it I could either bid a little lower and win more work or keep the same price and pocket a bit more money.

The nice thing about owning all my gear outright is that I don't have any bills. That means I don't have to drop my prices in quiet times and can afford to take it easy a little. I only really need 4 days work a month to cover all my living costs. Even in tight times it's not hard to manage that. You do get tax breaks with new gear, but you've got to have income to offset that against.

I learned a good lesson working for a top 20 engineering company in aus. Big company with thousands of employees, lots of contracts, and divisions covering engineering, mining, civil electrical etc. The small office I was working in had 150 employees and was in a mining town. It wasn't until I'd been working there for a year that I realised they didn't own a single asset. Every bit of gear they had - welders, vehicles, cranes, the offices, computers, the whole lot was hired on day rates with no future contracts. Even the staff were all employed through labour hire companies except for the core management team. Running the projects I was always headbutting a brickwall looking at our profit and loss statement. On some jobs, we'd hire a welder for example, have it for a month, pay more in hire fees than what it cost to buy a new one, then we'd damage it and have to replace it anyway. Made no sense at all, but you couldn't ever get approval for capital expenditure to buy anything

Couple years into the job, it started to make more sense to me. Hire costs can be written off immediately on each job tax wise, no need to depreciate them and carry the gear in the hope of a defferred tax asset you may never get a chance to realise. We also didn't need to maintain, repair, store or keep track of the gear. Essentially you outsource that whole liability.

When the GFC hit, it really made some sense. We were able to scale the entire company down to about 20 people in only 2 weeks. Returned all the gear, and reduced our outgoings to a very small number. Mines went bankrupt, and there was no work to be had. The company pulled through, and when the industry picked back up they ramped up again. Mining is always going to be a boom/bust industry.

Tree work is pretty unpredictable too. Dependant on the economy, and the weather. There's lots of strategies for dealing with the cycles - diversifying, getting lower paid long term contracts, putting money aside, or just not getting bills. To each his own ;-)

Shaun

 

[mattfr12]

Amen to that!

I always get tempted to buy bigger and better gear like most folks do, but I hold myself back and continue sub contracting out those services which I need (big chipper and truck, crane, bucket etc). Sometimes it would be nice to have that gear, and I think about how if I did own it I could either bid a little lower and win more work or keep the same price and pocket a bit more money.

The nice thing about owning all my gear outright is that I don't have any bills. That means I don't have to drop my prices in quiet times and can afford to take it easy a little. I only really need 4 days work a month to cover all my living costs. Even in tight times it's not hard to manage that. You do get tax breaks with new gear, but you've got to have income to offset that against.

I learned a good lesson working for a top 20 engineering company in aus. Big company with thousands of employees, lots of contracts, and divisions covering engineering, mining, civil electrical etc. The small office I was working in had 150 employees and was in a mining town. It wasn't until I'd been working there for a year that I realised they didn't own a single asset. Every bit of gear they had - welders, vehicles, cranes, the offices, computers, the whole lot was hired on day rates with no future contracts. Even the staff were all employed through labour hire companies except for the core management team. Running the projects I was always headbutting a brickwall looking at our profit and loss statement. On some jobs, we'd hire a welder for example, have it for a month, pay more in hire fees than what it cost to buy a new one, then we'd damage it and have to replace it anyway. Made no sense at all, but you couldn't ever get approval for capital expenditure to buy anything

Couple years into the job, it started to make more sense to me. Hire costs can be written off immediately on each job tax wise, no need to depreciate them and carry the gear in the hope of a defferred tax asset you may never get a chance to realise. We also didn't need to maintain, repair, store or keep track of the gear. Essentially you outsource that whole liability.

When the GFC hit, it really made some sense. We were able to scale the entire company down to about 20 people in only 2 weeks. Returned all the gear, and reduced our outgoings to a very small number. Mines went bankrupt, and there was no work to be had. The company pulled through, and when the industry picked back up they ramped up again. Mining is always going to be a boom/bust industry.

Tree work is pretty unpredictable too. Dependant on the economy, and the weather. There's lots of strategies for dealing with the cycles - diversifying, getting lower paid long term contracts, putting money aside, or just not getting bills. To each his own ;-)

Shaun

people that have to drop prices to keep their stuff had a poor business plan your bank account or war bank that i call it is funds set aside for hard times. these funds don't exist until you are on the verge of going under. you should have enough on hand before you make bigger purchases to be able to wait out a hard time six months at least what if you broke your back or arm? and can't work if i got an aflack quote i could pay the payment on a crane a month for what it would cost to get the funds i need to stay afloat. buying a truck with 100k with 20 grand in the bank is grounds for disaster.

you need half the face value or better to have a solid plan if your upside down that far to much is at stake.

so lets say you need a 60k if you don't have 30k the risk is medium to high if something happens. thats how i approach every purchase.

I'm selling off my skid steers because of the k-boom addition we just don't use them anymore one hasn't left the garage since it arrived. their not making money so its time to go.

 

[imagineero]

people that have to drop prices to keep their stuff had a poor business plan your bank account or war bank that i call it is funds set aside for hard times. these funds don't exist until you are on the verge of going under. you should have enough on hand before you make bigger purchases to be able to wait out a hard time six months at least what if you broke your back or arm? and can't work if i got an aflack quote i could pay the payment on a crane a month for what it would cost to get the funds i need to stay afloat. buying a truck with 100k with 20 grand in the bank is grounds for disaster.

you need half the face value or better to have a solid plan if your upside down that far to much is at stake.

so lets say you need a 60k if you don't have 30k the risk is medium to high if something happens. thats how i approach every purchase.

I'm selling off my skid steers because of the k-boom addition we just don't use them anymore one hasn't left the garage since it arrived. their not making money so its time to go.

That's the way the working man thinks, but its not the way that big business operates. A typical business plan involves raising capital to start/run a business, in the hope of being able to pay back the loan in future. You outsource the risk. Big business is run entirely on credit, If they have capital they invest it rather than spend it on gear. Why risk losing your own money?

You can't make a business plan of any sort of reliability in an industry with no contracts. Essentially you are selling your services at the market on a daily basis, for whatever the market will bear with no guarantee of any return. Putting aside enough cash to run your business at a loss for 6 months is the kind of business plan that would see you fail business school. Better to invest that money in something that makes a profit, close your business down, and go work for someone else. Or just stay home and watch TV, you'd still come out way ahead.

Shaun

 

[mattfr12]

when you purchase something make a chart. my accountant does this for me and it can really open up your eyes from an idea you thought was good to nah maybe ill wait.

lets say you buy a new bucket and its 100k thats 15k per year that is going out right off the top

look at your assets that you have ready to wait out a hard time and figure out how long you can make it before your effed and get repos

look at how much your monthly expenses will go up, payment , insurance, plates, maitnence. a lot of people don't factor in maitnence let me tell you i just put 6 tires on a c8500 it wasn't cheap you better have what it cost for a couple 880's ready.

look at how much more you will have to bring in to have the same profit margin

this will help you decide if your making a smart business move or i just gotta have it move.

 

[sgreanbeans]

All my equipment is used, old and tired. Having new does not mean pro. Like already said, the proof is in the work, period. I know of several company's better equipped than me, but they are total hacks, what makes them hakes, the work. That being said, pulling up to a job with a truck or a van that is filled with garbage, 4 different tires but new curb feelers.........
When I inherited the tree biznass from my in-laws, I had ALL the toys, but only knew about felling in the woods, understanding what a hack was , from the Davey dudes that originally taught me, I knew that I needed to seek a Jedi, as the last thing I wanted to be, was a hack. I had everything but the knowledge, the knowledge was what was most important. When I found the Jedi, he only had a f-350 chipper truck and a 9" Morbark. No fleet of trucks, no employees. Just him and his little setup. Yet he was a BCMA and a legend in my neck of the woods. Took a lot of convincing to get him to train me, awful skeptical of this kid who has all the stuff, but knows nothing.
Its not the year of equipment that counts, its how you maintain it. I have a 78 F-700, that I am confident that I could jump in and drive to cali in. I never look at a guy who has little and call him hack, but you post pics of dirty, beat up P.O.S's. It gives a insight into how you run things, if you don't care about the appearance or maintenance of your stuff, then chances are you don't care what you are doing when in a tree.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Need to add this. You may also have brand new equipment that is all nice and shiny, but has no biznass on a tree job. Guys get beat on for this, so be it. I wouldn't post in a pic of a brand new chipper in a painters forum. Right equip for the job also speaks volumes.
" Look at my brand new concrete mixer, gonna use it so I can mix my own, ya know for the cavity's"

 

[tree MDS]

I have been on both sides of the equipment deal. I have some bigger equipment now, but there were years when it was just the one ton and old 200+ bandit. We also have an old two wheel drive one ton dump with a liftgate that we used to use for wood. I can remember having my chipper referred to as a "little dog". Man that pissed me off!

I think it's just all part of the game... now I make fun of the punk kid that bought my old chipper off me! Lol, deal with it... I look at it as incentive to improve your game!

 

[mic687]

I'll say this and I'll be done with it:

A proven track record and a good name will take you much further than shiny new equipment ever will.

Case in point: There is a guy who is well known in my town. He had a big name around here and is known nationally, made some quick money and ran out and bought a bunch of shiny new equipment. He even had his own TV show at one time. His name is now #### and they have nearly ran him out of town for doing shoddy work and tearing up property. As I remember it, he used to roll up to the job in a Mercedes or an Audi, can't remember which.

Doing good quality work, keeping your word with people and developing a good reputation will take you a lot further than a bucket truck in this biz.

It was a Mercedes and you forgot the blue tooth in each ear and that he was protecting your family from the most dangerous vegetation on earth, trees now let's go cut some. Same guy?
I personally do not have alot of equipment but all I have runs good and looks pretty good. I too believe that quality of work speaks volumes and I have yet to advertise and still get as much work as I want to do.Referrals as well as folks seeing a quality job and top notch clean up is the best advertising you can get.

 

[beastmaster]

There are two company's I work for that are on the other side of the spectrum from one another. One the largest of the two has several chipper trucks 4 drum chippers and an older front loader and med. size cat. All their equipment is old but perfectly maintained.(they have a stump grinder that belongs in a museum) The owner is a mean crusty old tree guy who gets results and demands his crew does too. A real A Hole, but with integrity. Old school all the way.
The other guy is a real slickster, has all the toys with all the bells and Whistles. All his trucks are new and custom painted, and he's the best salesman I have ever seen. He has never climbed a tree, but is very knowledgeable about trees. His whole crew acts like primadona's, but do exceptional work also.
Two excellent company's with different ideas and business plans and personalitys, both doing well. The common ground is quality work, and good reputation. Both have been around for a long time.
Hack's, regardless of the quality or lack of, of their equipment, come and go(Yes sadly there are exceptions)as water seeks its own level. This process of natural selection would work better if the public wasn't so ignorant.
But when I dream, I always have a new shiny chipper truck, the best boom and a bc1800 chipper.

 

[Slvrmple72]

Use a nice big Bandit 1890xp at work. I have a little Chuck and Duck with Ford inline 6 desperately needing fresh paint. Keep thinking its time to kick it on down the line to the next fella.... better paint it soon. A nice used Bandit 150xp would be great, a 250xp with a winch would have me delirious! LOL!

 

[mattfr12]

Use a nice big Bandit 1890xp at work. I have a little Chuck and Duck with Ford inline 6 desperately needing fresh paint. Keep thinking its time to kick it on down the line to the next fella.... better paint it soon. A nice used Bandit 150xp would be great, a 250xp with a winch would have me delirious! LOL!

got one for sale with 140hp john deere winch and only 700 hours 2007 :msp_wink:

we use a morbark 2400xl the most anymore with 200 hp cummins

 

[mattfr12]

There are two company's I work for that are on the other side of the spectrum from one another. One the largest of the two has several chipper trucks 4 drum chippers and an older front loader and med. size cat. All their equipment is old but perfectly maintained.(they have a stump grinder that belongs in a museum) The owner is a mean crusty old tree guy who gets results and demands his crew does too. A real A Hole, but with integrity. Old school all the way.
The other guy is a real slickster, has all the toys with all the bells and Whistles. All his trucks are new and custom painted, and he's the best salesman I have ever seen. He has never climbed a tree, but is very knowledgeable about trees. His whole crew acts like primadona's, but do exceptional work also.
Two excellent company's with different ideas and business plans and personalitys, both doing well. The common ground is quality work, and good reputation. Both have been around for a long time.
Hack's, regardless of the quality or lack of, of their equipment, come and go(Yes sadly there are exceptions)as water seeks its own level. This process of natural selection would work better if the public wasn't so ignorant.
But when I dream, I always have a new shiny chipper truck, the best boom and a bc1800 chipper.

doesn't have to be a dream just gotta figure out what you have to do to achieve these goals and with hard work and patience it will happen. not maybe it can be done.

 

[Pelorus]

That's too bad about Gib, yep it's quite the place, don't think there is a place like his on the planet! RIP Is his brother still around to run the place? I know he was getting up there.

Have heard that Frank is not selling any equipment. Apparently a lot of the stuff went to the landfill just before Gib died; they were not going to release him from the hospital unless they could get a stretcher into the house. Bought a Solo 675 off of Gib a couple of in early Sept before he died. Was pretty sad - to even get through the garage you were stepping on chainsaw bars (new bars) that had fallen down of the shelves and never got picked up.

 

[mattfr12]

There are two company's I work for that are on the other side of the spectrum from one another. One the largest of the two has several chipper trucks 4 drum chippers and an older front loader and med. size cat. All their equipment is old but perfectly maintained.(they have a stump grinder that belongs in a museum) The owner is a mean crusty old tree guy who gets results and demands his crew does too. A real A Hole, but with integrity. Old school all the way.
The other guy is a real slickster, has all the toys with all the bells and Whistles. All his trucks are new and custom painted, and he's the best salesman I have ever seen. He has never climbed a tree, but is very knowledgeable about trees. His whole crew acts like primadona's, but do exceptional work also.
Two excellent company's with different ideas and business plans and personalitys, both doing well. The common ground is quality work, and good reputation. Both have been around for a long time.
Hack's, regardless of the quality or lack of, of their equipment, come and go(Yes sadly there are exceptions)as water seeks its own level. This process of natural selection would work better if the public wasn't so ignorant.
But when I dream, I always have a new shiny chipper truck, the best boom and a bc1800 chipper.

i just don't like when people say i wish my mother in law designs beautiful cakes wedding cakes she was voted best in pittsburgh like 3 years in a row and always worked for a company. I've tried to get her to go on her own many times she just won't do it. she loves doing it but is to scared to try it. i even offered to lend her the money to buy all the ovens and rent a space for a while to get going. I'm still working on it. lets say worst case scenario it tanks at least you tried. in my book thats better than not trying at all. theirs never knowing and knowing.

 

[beastmaster]

I have lots of respect for owner operators and the work and time it take to run a successful business. That is what makes me a better then average employee. But I like to go home at the end of the day. When I was self employed it never stopped, I am not ashamed to admit I couldn't handle the pressure and non-stop stress. It take a special kind of person to run a successful business, I am glad you guy's are out there so I have a place to work.

 

[mattfr12]

I have lots of respect for owner operators and the work and time it take to run a successful business. That is what makes me a better then average employee. But I like to go home at the end of the day. When I was self employed it never stopped, I am not ashamed to admit I couldn't handle the pressure and non-stop stress. It take a special kind of person to run a successful business, I am glad you guy's are out there so I have a place to work.

i think i might be going bald from it tho. my wife hates it. but what i did was make her quite her other job and be my secretary and mail stuff for me answer the phone so we could spend more time together. nice having your wife for a secretary. i don't have to watch the how to treat women in the workplace videos its fair game.

i got her a shirt that says vice president she likes it.

 

[ForTheArborist]

i just wanted to touch on the fact i have read a lot of guys stories about the local hack with barely running equipment.... All things aside they might be a hack that does shotty work. But on the other hand what if your bashing a local up an comer like me.. Starting a business in this economy is like juggling chainsaws not everyone could.. But there are a few of us out there that simply dont have the best equipment or for that matter the best saws... But still most of my work comes from referalls... I think if i was a hack that would not be the case.. All im saying is never judge a book by its cover... We all put our boots on the same way in the morning and even thou my operation may look a little rag tag i still use my tree knowledge to make a difference.. And at the end of the day that is what really matters knowledge is more powerful than equipment.

My dump truck and chipper look so bad that I feel like kicking the crap out of it myself...... to be honest with you all. Well, that isn't half of the story. In reality the standard of work matters, and I'm dead serious about that business. I do a lot of joking around with my workers, but if we aren't doing these people's trees the right way, then people might as well have stayed at home. No one is going to get a chance to say that my outfit did a less than perfect job. I mean down to the last leaf perfect, or people start losing wages.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

My dump truck and chipper look so bad that I feel like kicking the crap out of it myself...... to be honest with you all. Well, that isn't half of the story. In reality the standard of work matters, and I'm dead serious about that business. I do a lot of joking around with my workers, but if we aren't doing these people's trees the right way, then people might as well have stayed at home. No one is going to get a chance to say that my outfit did a less than perfect job. I mean down to the last leaf perfect, or people start losing wages.

Im sure your respected by your peers and competition though, when they are not hiding from the INS.

 

[ForTheArborist]

Im sure your respected by your peers and competition though, when they are not hiding from the INS.

That's funny........and that's just true.

 

[Toddppm]

I started out with an El Camino and a 5x10 trailer

So who was making fun of this guys equipment anyways? Somebody here? This topic seems to have touched a nerve to get all of these posts