I think it's dumb because a simple paint brush and solution will do the trick without having to spray the material everywhere.
Crazy way to apply Tordon
- Thread starter pdqdl
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I think it's dumb because a simple paint brush and solution will do the trick without having to spray the material everywhere.
JeffGu
Antagonist/Heckler
Exactly. It's a forty dollar solution to a forty cent problem. If you can't find the stumps after you cut them, carry $3 worth of surveyor flags in your pocket.
Ok. I have no argument with that, except that when you are cutting a clump of underbrush and fighting like hell to drag it out of the way to get to the next clump, interspersed with trees, it's a pain in the butt to keep walking back to pick up your treatment tools. Then...you have to find each little stick you cut out of about 10-20 that you cut to get the clump to move.
I never said it was impossible to treat in the conventional way. I could just come back in 6 weeks with a backpack sprayer and hit everything that grows. I am just looking for a more efficient alternative.
Look at all the improvements in the tools and techniques that we use today, and compare them to 50 years ago. That didn't happen without trying new methods & new materials. I remember all the scorn another member at AS endured when he was experimenting with a bicycle-style rope climber. He got dumped on left and right, and I thought it was a good idea. I still like the idea better than the rope-tec, and that has seen quite a bit of success.
dumbarky
ArboristSite Operative
In all honesty the sooner you can treat cut stumps with chemical the better the results. Even with in an hour the cut stump or sapling starts to protect itself by sap excretion.
In this area lots of commercial brush cutters are using a chemical applicator rotary cutter. It is a brush hog with special made blades and a chemical tank on the cutter deck. As the blades spin the chemical is sprayed into the cutting area. This is the best time to spray the cambium layer of the brush, tree. The freshly damaged layer draws the chemical into the plant system and immediately start the killing process.
Although, I applaud your ingenuity, I feel that your chemical application might be better served by developing a hand held delivery system. Maybe a delivery system you could carry like a backpack with the applicator attached to the saw.
Treating the basal bark is the primary goal. If the stump is damaged anywhere on the remaining parts in the ground they need to be treated also. The longer you wait to treat these stumps, clumps, and sapling stubs the less likely they will be eradicated.
You may actually be on to something here. I bet if you do some real world testing the answers will come to you. I had never thought of what your proposing. We usually just carry around a paint brush and bucket mixture of kerosene and Remedy and Tordon, with blue marker dye mixed in to prevent missing stumps. This works really well, as one of the many basal bark treatments.
In this area lots of commercial brush cutters are using a chemical applicator rotary cutter. It is a brush hog with special made blades and a chemical tank on the cutter deck. As the blades spin the chemical is sprayed into the cutting area. This is the best time to spray the cambium layer of the brush, tree. The freshly damaged layer draws the chemical into the plant system and immediately start the killing process.
Although, I applaud your ingenuity, I feel that your chemical application might be better served by developing a hand held delivery system. Maybe a delivery system you could carry like a backpack with the applicator attached to the saw.
Treating the basal bark is the primary goal. If the stump is damaged anywhere on the remaining parts in the ground they need to be treated also. The longer you wait to treat these stumps, clumps, and sapling stubs the less likely they will be eradicated.
You may actually be on to something here. I bet if you do some real world testing the answers will come to you. I had never thought of what your proposing. We usually just carry around a paint brush and bucket mixture of kerosene and Remedy and Tordon, with blue marker dye mixed in to prevent missing stumps. This works really well, as one of the many basal bark treatments.
I figured this would come up. Look, it's just another saw to me, and it is the only one I had loaded with the herbicide emulsion.
I do keep the groundies from grabbing these saws as a rule, however. I don't keep them away from the climbing saws because they are special in some way, or that it really pisses me off to see them ruin the chains. I keep my ground guys away from the top-handled saws because they are generally unqualified to use what I think is a more dangerous saw. In this particular case, I wasn't too worried about the operator, since I am trying to teach him some improved techniques. Notice the picture? It was a bad cut to begin with, and I figured one of you sharp eyed critics would notice the lack of chips coming off the dull chain.
Sadly, the whole area was infested with rocks, and no one on my crew seems to be able to miss them but me. So...either I do all the cutting, or I get ready to sharpen some chains. I'd like everyone to remember that it is a heck of a lot easier to sharpen a little 49 link 3/8ths low profile chain than it is to do a 3/8ths standard chain that is on a 2"-4" longer bar.
Smaller chains are cheaper to replace, too.
Ah, yes. Works like a champ. But how often do your little bucket & brush setups get knocked over and spilled?
If it is anywhere near the brush being dragged out, it gets tipped constantly. But what do I know? I cannot even get my guys to miss rocks with a chainsaw, much less little paint cans with a 10' diameter clump of underbrush.
Agent Orange
Hacktastic®
This in a small flashlight holster might be handy. No large spills of nasty chemicals from paint cans and innatentive help.
ok pdqdl you got me curious to see how this idea of bar oil mix tree killer goes
i sox small brush trees a lot and just use one of these to paint the stumps with a mix of round up MCPA garlon dye and water it more often does the trick if not will let it grow return and spray new foliage
i sox small brush trees a lot and just use one of these to paint the stumps with a mix of round up MCPA garlon dye and water it more often does the trick if not will let it grow return and spray new foliage
Smithy
ArboristSite Lurker
I use this - has saved me so much hassle.
I have tried those too, but they are incredibly unreliable. I haven't found one yet that works for more than one or two uses, and then it doesn't work anymore. If I were to rely on a sprayer, it would be the relatively reliable one gallon pump-up sprayers. Pretty cheap, but much more reliable than the smaller units.
I have used these before with rather limited success:
But these don't work very long with herbicides that have the petrochemical solvents in them. If it turns white when you pour it into a water tank, it will probably ruin any sprayer that uses rubber o-rings.
Why MCPA? Garlon is great for woody brush, but MCPA carries no listing at all for woody plants. MCPA is a minor component of the Trimec family of broadleaf weed controls, so it will help kill the brush. It's just not what I would spend money on to kill brush. Tordon & Garlon, or any other brands that combine to have picloram and triclopyr will really do the job.
Triclopyr used to be the last resort herbicide for tough to eliminate broadleaf weeds in lawn applications. That seems to have been removed from the market; probably because the users killed off too many desirable woody plants. Of course, I am just guessing about that.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Triclopyr is still around - goes by Remedy Ultra from Dow, and it's available in generics (much cheaper).
Using that and diesel in a 50/50 mix is a great basal treatment for stumps. Add some dye if you want to keep track of what's been hit.
Using that and diesel in a 50/50 mix is a great basal treatment for stumps. Add some dye if you want to keep track of what's been hit.
Yes, but the Triclopyr label used to advertise that it was for use in lawns. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
I have found mcpa is great killer of popular elm pine and few other species yes its a bit naughty as off label but it works so well I us
The garlon sorts gums and the roundup covers the rest
True the cheap bottle sprayer don't last long I get about 2 months and have tested quite a few makes some better than other but at 15 bucks a price its ok by me
I applaud your ingenuity. That being said, applying pesticides in a manner that is not specified on the label is against the law. The label IS the law.
Being that you wanted credentials,
CT Supervisory Pesticide License
CT licensed Arborist 3d
CT licensed Ornamental and Turf 3a
All under S-6032
Granted, all those and a buck 50 will get you a cup of coffee, but I would say it's not a good idea.
Being that you wanted credentials,
CT Supervisory Pesticide License
CT licensed Arborist 3d
CT licensed Ornamental and Turf 3a
All under S-6032
Granted, all those and a buck 50 will get you a cup of coffee, but I would say it's not a good idea.
I applaud your ingenuity. That being said, applying pesticides in a manner that is not specified on the label is against the law. The label IS the law.
Being that you wanted credentials,
CT Supervisory Pesticide License
CT licensed Arborist 3d
CT licensed Ornamental and Turf 3a
All under S-6032
Granted, all those and a buck 50 will get you a cup of coffee, but I would say it's not a good idea.
Thanks for the kudo's; unfortunately I think you need to review the rules. Thanks for being the first applicator to voice an opinion. Sorry, but I disagree with you.
Look guys, that simply isn't how the law reads. I know, I have tested out every three years for the last 30 as an applicator, and I took the test again this spring. I know the rules very well. Since we finally have a licensed applicator piping up, strongly implying that I am breaking the law, now I am going to quote the law to you. You are required to follow the label and not make applications contrary to what is allowed. This text from the actual manual specifying the rules.
"Although it is a violation of federal law to use any pesticide registered by EPA in a manner inconsistent with its labeling, FIFRA Section 2(ee) excludes several use situations and application procedures. Unless specifically prohibited by the labeling, FIFRA allows:
• A pesticide to be applied to control a target pest not specified on the label if the pesticide is applied to a crop, animal, or site specifically listed on the labeling (e.g., interior of a home,food-handling establishments, exterior ornamental plants, corn, and tomatoes).
• Any method of application. (yes! This is straight from the manual so just drop your dumb arguments to the contrary)
• A pesticide to be applied at a dosage, concentration, or frequency less than that specified on the labeling (except in the case of termiticides labeled for preconstruction treatments).
•A pesticide-fertilizer mixture.
Realize that if you exercise any of the Section 2(ee) exclusions under FIFRA, you alone are responsible for any consequences resulting from such an application."
• A pesticide to be applied to control a target pest not specified on the label if the pesticide is applied to a crop, animal, or site specifically listed on the labeling (e.g., interior of a home,food-handling establishments, exterior ornamental plants, corn, and tomatoes).
• Any method of application. (yes! This is straight from the manual so just drop your dumb arguments to the contrary)
• A pesticide to be applied at a dosage, concentration, or frequency less than that specified on the labeling (except in the case of termiticides labeled for preconstruction treatments).
•A pesticide-fertilizer mixture.
Realize that if you exercise any of the Section 2(ee) exclusions under FIFRA, you alone are responsible for any consequences resulting from such an application."
Nowhere on the entire damned label of Tordon does it mention a paintbrush and can. In not one instance, does it mention using a squirt can sprayer, nor a roller applicator, but no one has mentioned those as barriers to a "proper" application. The simple fact is that the label prescribes an application rate, it stipulates the safe working conditions, and it places restrictions on applications that must be followed where the application is subject to those restrictions. The label almost never tells you how to make the application.
For example, the label tells you how not to set nozzles and equipment on an application made by airplane or helicopter, but it never mentions any restrictions on ground based equipment. Nowhere on the entire damned label does it mention what pressures to use on a conventional sprayer, it doesn't specify a permissible spray pattern or technique, nor does it mention or control pump construction, nozzle sizes or styles. In short, the labels rarely tell you HOW to make an application, but it might very well restrict you on how NOT to make an application.
I am tired of you guys trying to tell me I am operating illegally, when you all seem to making emotional decisions not based on any facts. Argue with the facts I posted above.
I never said your application method was illegal. I just said it was dumb.
Yep. I know. I can respect that. I asked for opinions, and yours was an honestly expressed answer to my original post. I fully expected mostly rejection of the idea, some to have useful suggestions, others to say they thought it was a great idea. So far...this thread has been pretty pointless from my perspective. No useful suggestions have been rendered, and far too many crazy accusations.
I do have some problems with the folks that keep making accusations that are not true. Nobody likes being called a crook, particularly when they are not.
I do have some problems with the folks that keep making accusations that are not true. Nobody likes being called a crook, particularly when they are not.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
FWIW, I use a $1 walmart sourced squirt bottle (it's even made in USA). The innards will rot from the diesel and it might only make it a year (the fuel spout on my gas can broke down and went soft from the mix), but it's the cheapest part of the formula and I consider it as disposable as the gas burned to get the chemicals from the store - just a cost of doing business.
Mixing with the bar oil isn't revolutionary. That's how some shroom growers inoculate their wood. The problem is that to get a shroom growing, you need a single spore to make the journey, and they're tiny. To get a good kill you need enough chemical to shut down the tree before it just rejects the damaged tissue and keeps on growing around it. Half-dead trees are all over the place.
Mixing with the bar oil isn't revolutionary. That's how some shroom growers inoculate their wood. The problem is that to get a shroom growing, you need a single spore to make the journey, and they're tiny. To get a good kill you need enough chemical to shut down the tree before it just rejects the damaged tissue and keeps on growing around it. Half-dead trees are all over the place.
