Cricket
ArboristSite Operative
This. I will swear that the one jammed up between a live walnut and the barn wall, wasn't dead completely when it started to go punk. It was the weirdest thing I ever saw.
Dangerous barber chair felling ash infected with emerald ash borer
- Thread starter kdjacob2000
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I have ones where the middle is almost dust and the top and stump are solid. Some where the root is dust, the middle is dust and the top solid. Some with one side solid and one side dust.
Some are wet rot too, just to make things interesting.
No rhyme or reason. Think they are all just setting up to test my wood avoidance skills.
Some are wet rot too, just to make things interesting.
No rhyme or reason. Think they are all just setting up to test my wood avoidance skills.
your a coach that doesn't teach anyone? nice
as for the tongue and groove cut, its pretty much BS too FYI
there is plenty of room for innovation, however when someone questions the safety of said innovation, especially multiple folks who's profession your playing at, who I might add highlighted the exact same concern, you should probably pay attention.
The only reason I'm calling you out is that you are advocating idiotic dangerous activity, then doubling down by claiming to be a coach, or instructor
He hasn’t answered my question yet… I’m just a washed up C Sawyer. Both firefighter and saw man.
Anyway… While I do not endorse the Scandinavian Stump Dance, it can work. As a mather of fact-it usually does work. I mostly dislike the face cut.
I understand why it’s done the way it is, it’s fast to gun, but I’ve always treated the flat part of the face as my gunning cut. I hate how shallow the face is. I get it, all you need is to leave part of the tree unsupported and it will move in that direction, and the height and relatively shallow angle allows for significant travel before completely breaking the hinge. I just prefer a lot more depth which leaves a lot less area supported and a lot more space to allow gravity to do its part of the tree tipping game. A bigger opening means the angle can be shallower because there’s more travel before breaking the hinge. 1/3 the diameter is the industry standard, and it works pretty well and is very forgiving.
Setting the hinge first makes sense if someone doesn’t know the gut integrity of the tree. Boring also lets you get the majority of the wood out of the guts of the tree if you’re under barred, instead of trying to chase both sides of the tree. Then you release it when you decide you want it to be released.
It works a lot better in smaller diameter timber with small saws and short bars. It just feels wrong to me. But I feel like some of the methods from the GOL are still things to keep in your mental toolbox.
OP, I feel like your face cut is too shallow. I also think the hinge is too thick. I don’t see anything too punky in the stump. I think your hinge is the biggest cause of what happened here.
Meh, the big open face thing to me is just wasting wood, slow, and kinda silly looking, gunning from the slope cut is also a good way to add inaccuracy, I get that its easier to learn, which is why its taught, because its easier to learn... (K.eep I.t S.imple S.tupid) its still dumb looking...
Though the argument about short bars is sorta ok, there are better easier ways to manage that handicap, without dancing around said stump, though admittedly they take some practice and skill to pull off.
The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...
Having that trigger allows me one last chance to make sure the area is clear before I release the tree. While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut.
I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or not.
compound angles, coupled with limited vision, and parallax can be problematic. IF you pay attention to both lines it can work out, but its difficult to do so, not impossible, but considerably more difficult then gunning with a single line and a level saw.The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...
While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut.
I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or not.
and your trying to keep a stump height, face depth and gun direction all on the first and most critical cut, lot more efficient to gun cut level, then all you need to worry about is direction and depth and you can more or less focus on either individually, once thats set you just make the slope cut match, it can be crooked, or as sloppy as you can manage as long as its not misaligned with the gun cut, Hel you can make the attempt 17 or more times as long as you stop before cutting past the gun cut. or even chop it out with an axe just for funsies,
Besides, that straight and level cut is the one that is most critical, the slope cut merely provides room for the stem to move, the flat cut is what directs the tree, both during and somewhat after the fall. Might as well eliminate any other distractions while working on that one cut, such as making it line up with a slope cut, which can be tricky if said slope cut isn't level, or any number of other factors
I do feel like some of this is taught simply because the "instructors" never stopped to consider the multitude of steps involved, they simply repeat whatever was told to them... etc
Again this is a human condition thing, most humans will simply mimic what they have been taught, usually the first thing they were taught, and never question how or why they are doing it a certain way, luckily most will pick up on a new idea quickly, though you may have noticed a minority will get self righteously angry over a "new idea" or "change" (these people are assholes and should be avoided)
I took some GOL training in the late 90s early 2000s. It was basically a huge bore cutting session. I’m not saying it’s all bad, I still use a lot of it…. I bore cut hard leaners, and double cuts seem easier via bore cut. The “top lock” is pretty handy also
Yup, I like your “trigger” idea for added safety. I think the conventional top cut is more accurate. In northwestern clearcuts the humbolt is safe and productive once you have space to lay down trees.The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...
While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut.
I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or
Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else is. I hope not anyway.
The method you propose is wrong headed. About all it will do is get you hurt. I admire your goal but in this case your methodology just absolutely sucks.
If all your advice is as poor as this example you need to put a disclaimer on your posts to keep people from depending on your knowledge to stay safe.
Well said.
The difference between arborist work and logger work... When I do TSI felling what I use depends on the tree. When I do arborist type work on land trust properties and rail trails I use the open face, bore cut and trigger as I need to make damned sure nobody has walked or bicycled into the danger zone. Case in point, my cutting partner and I had put up signs to "stop and ask permission before proceeding," cones and ropes on a rail trail while we were felling beaver gnawed and felled trees. I had a gnawed tree cut and wedged needing only to cut the trigger when a woman walked through the warnings and walked straight toward me in line with the falling target zone... she engaged me in conversation! I advised her to move as she was in the danger zone of a cut tree... she moved and watched me cut the trigger. It fell right where she was standing. The look on her face was priceless... hopefully it was a learning experience. Arborist work often occurs around people who are not woods, tree, or felling wise.
I came across a new video that shows something I'd only heard about from a theoretical perspective... nothing I ever did! That being a kerf bypass on the face cut acting like a mini notch and triggering a barber chair. This is something else folks might want to examine if they are having barber chairs with ash.
Another video on barber chairs... the bypass cuts in the face cut could explain some of the barber chairs reported here, the ones that blow out the side included.
The ash are dead and the wood in the center is sometimes dust.
So far only plunge cut seems to work.
You can see chips to dust back to chips while doing the cut.
I never had a single barber chair when the ash were in good shape.
Will watch the video later, always good to see something that may reduce the risk.
So far only plunge cut seems to work.
You can see chips to dust back to chips while doing the cut.
I never had a single barber chair when the ash were in good shape.
Will watch the video later, always good to see something that may reduce the risk.
So I watched both videos.
No dutchman in my cut. I always run my hand/glove through the notch to make sure no dutchman either side or back.
Did not do a backcut without a notch/face cut
Cause = Dead Ash with some parts of the core turned to dust/dry rot. Seems that the plunge cut is still the lowest risk.
Anyone want to chime in? Most of you have more experience than I do so any advice welcome.
The only time I am using ropes on these Ash it to angle pull the larger branches down so they don't try to flatten me. Otherwise just saw and wedges. Roped a few ones that were still budding a little bit with success.
Most of the ones left are completely bare.
No dutchman in my cut. I always run my hand/glove through the notch to make sure no dutchman either side or back.
Did not do a backcut without a notch/face cut
Cause = Dead Ash with some parts of the core turned to dust/dry rot. Seems that the plunge cut is still the lowest risk.
Anyone want to chime in? Most of you have more experience than I do so any advice welcome.
The only time I am using ropes on these Ash it to angle pull the larger branches down so they don't try to flatten me. Otherwise just saw and wedges. Roped a few ones that were still budding a little bit with success.
Most of the ones left are completely bare.
Without a doubt Dutchmans cause many barber chairs, but all barber chairs are not caused by a Dutchman. My one and only ash chair had textbook cuts - no Dutchman or anything else to stall the fall.
Other trees may have similar characteristics as diseased ash, but I have never run across any. To say ash is chair prone has not been my experience. I have cut large ash standing 60 to 70 degrees without a chair. Dead ash dry rots unpredictably and in different spots - varies greatly from tree to tree. Dry rot can explode in dust or have the consistency of styrofoam. In either case, it has no holding power. This is just one reason that I don’t rely on pulling or pushing or wedging - the top can break off at any place and at any time. If I can’t fell with the lean or limb load, and from a spot with a clear overhead, I leave it for nature or someone with safe mechanical means.
As stated before dead ash is dangerous.
Ron
Other trees may have similar characteristics as diseased ash, but I have never run across any. To say ash is chair prone has not been my experience. I have cut large ash standing 60 to 70 degrees without a chair. Dead ash dry rots unpredictably and in different spots - varies greatly from tree to tree. Dry rot can explode in dust or have the consistency of styrofoam. In either case, it has no holding power. This is just one reason that I don’t rely on pulling or pushing or wedging - the top can break off at any place and at any time. If I can’t fell with the lean or limb load, and from a spot with a clear overhead, I leave it for nature or someone with safe mechanical means.
As stated before dead ash is dangerous.
Ron
Fireman Bill
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks for posting this. We all need reminders on proper techniques. Let’s face it though, barber chair can happen on these ash trees. The trees don’t care if your a 30 year man or 2 year man. Your initial prep/escape routes will be what keeps you safe when they do barber chair.
While waiting for the OP to report back on his stump re-examine, I did a little math - 80% of diameter on a round stem is always going to be a little short of a 1/3 deep face which old Dent recommends generally as the minimum depth. Both are general rules to always consider, but Dent and practically anyone else that has cut a bit knows there are no hard fast formulas for safe tree falling. Believing there are such formulas is a quick way to failure. All trees are different and pose hazards specific to the tree. Hopefully, I am just preaching to the choir, but dead ash is so abundant in the east I am sure plenty are tempted to jump right on them - after all what can beat pre-seasoned firewood especially when it is offered for free. I will repeat - dead ash is very dangerous. It is like old dynamite. One stick is sound and the next may blow up in your hand. The fresher the stick the better your odds. The older (the longer dead) the stick the worse your odds. Even the BBC is reporting on the dangers.
If you are going to cut dead ash, do some homework and check out the many threads and pictures on this site. If you are bore-cutting to prevent a chair and are counting on establishing the perfect hinge, check out the various hinges posted by different cutters.
Ron
If you are going to cut dead ash, do some homework and check out the many threads and pictures on this site. If you are bore-cutting to prevent a chair and are counting on establishing the perfect hinge, check out the various hinges posted by different cutters.
Ron
If anyone is close to an expert on Ded Ash cutting its probably Rwoods, he'll deny it, which means its more true then not.
I would take what the man says with some humility.
I would take what the man says with some humility.
