Descender

[Fumbler]

Just curous, how many of you use/have used something like a Black Diamond ATC?
I was thinking of switching from my rescue 8 to one of those...

Tree Machine has put in some good comments, but if anyone else's used them for tree work could you please share your experience?

 

[ATH]

Tree Machine, you have given some excellent information to consider. You have also left me wondering what you use for decending and/or work possitioning. So, what is your choice (or top 3 if you don't always reach for the same thing)?





Based on your comments, I'm guessing it is a friction hitch, but I'm curious...

 

[Barry Stumps]

I'm sure i will hear about safety on this one and i probally don't have any business with it if i cant figure it out. I bought a large Petzl ID descender and i have the sampson 1/2 inch rope. It says good for up to 13 mill but cant figure out how to work the thing. It says when you let go the grab automatic stops you but when i hold the handle it stops and when i let go it would let me fall the opposite. I have tested it on ground level but cant figure it out or not yet. It looks like my rope is fed in right according to the pics. It says user friendly hmm.

 

[Fireaxman]

Barry, I have not logged on for a while and I just saw your post. I use the Petzle Stop to descend on 1/2". I am mostly pruning hangers out of 80 to 100' clear stem (close growth) loblolly pine. I use the Stop for a quick ride down after the job is done. I was burning up 3/8" Stay Set (double braid) split tails and the Stop disipates the heat better. I also use it for a "Bail Out" on a single rope as I work my way down a top with spurs on a removal, thinking if I get stupid with the saw and take a cut I can get down quicker and easier than DdRT or spurs.

It works pretty well on my 1/2" Spearmint, Blue Streak, and Arborplex, but all my ropes are well broken in and the weave is pretty tight on them. It may be a tight fit for new rope. I tried it once on some 1/2" New England Static Kernmantle, and it did not work at all well - jammed up. It is a bit of a pain if you want to work it UP the rope even just a few inches (for instance to take up some slack); forget that, just take it off and move it up and re-thread it.

You and Tree Machine have me looking at the Petzl web site to see if I am violating any great safety standard, but the 1/2" 12 and 16 strand ropes I use seem to fit comfortably in the grooves, they dont touch the sides. My ride is firm and well controled, and the Stop doesn't get hot enough to burn my ropes.

Did you figure out the I'D? I wish I had it instead of the Stop. I bought the Stop probably 10 years ago, I dont think they had the I'D for 1/2" at the time, or maybe I just overlooked it.

 

[Barry Stumps]

Fireaxman, I have never really tried the petzle stop since i got it. I only have climbed a few tress around 3 feet or so and just used the blakes hitch to come down but really slow. I am still new to this and trying things out on the ground for the most part. I am not sure if i am going to sell it back on Ebay or not. The blakes hitch worked well though im not sure if I have the right rope for that. It is the (Samson Arbor-Plex is a light weight, high-strength 12-strand climbing line. Tough polyester jacket fibers surround polyolefin center fibers to maximize resistance to wear and fiber fusing. The workhorse of the industry. 12-strand polyester polyolefin construction. The best known, most widely used rigging line in the industry. ) This was a copy and paste of where i bought it. Do you think it is the right rope for this use?? Any help is appreciated. Thanks

 

[Barry Stumps]

Sorry i meant 30 feet not 3 feet on climbing a tree, that would be a sight.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

The Stop, and most other descending tools, are made for ropes less than 13mm. Any arbo rope that is measured at half inch is really over a half inch and will not work properly with these descenders.

Too often people use tools that aren't compatible with the ropes they're using. This is asking for an accident.

You'll find that the I'd needs a load on it to function properly. When you're testing it on the ground be sure to lean back and put a bit of weight onto your rope. With low loads the I'd will be quite touchy and lock off easily.

Be sure to read this site:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

Most of your questions will be answered there.

 

[Fireaxman]

Tom, you are absolutely right of course, and I should have known better. Using the STOP on my half inch was a bad habit I got away with for a while, but I see Bailey's has a good deal on the 7/16 Velocity. I'm going to get 150 feet of it to use with the STOP for my "Bail Out" line.

I checked the diameters on my lines just for the heck of it. As I said, they are all well broken in and the weave is pretty tight on them, but that was actually an additional strike against the arborplex for the STOP. The arborplex was squared off (as it is known to do), 15/32 on the flat side and 10/16 on the wide side. The wide side stayed down on the spindle of course, so using the STOP on the arborplex was an especially bad idea.

The Spearmint and the Blue Streak were both 17/32. I got away with using them, but it was still probably a bad idea. I did look at your link by the way, but things are pretty busy and I could not find exactly what I was looking for in the time I had available. Specificly, any warnings about using the STOP on 1/2". I did see the warning on using it for ropes less than 9mm, but that was a given. Makes it a "Sui-Slider". At least the way I was using it any failures were in the "Stop" (jammed up) mode, which did happen occasionaly with the Arbor-Plex.

Barry, I really like the Arbor-Plex for Blakes Hitch climbing and for the Martin Hitch I use most of the time now. I think it is ideal for starting out on. It's safe, and it's comparitively cheap of course, so you can get into the game for less money up front. Besides that I like the friction coefficient. It's easier to grasp for climbing and, maybe because it "Square's Off" a little, it provides more friction in a friction hitch. I think that makes it a little safer than the 16 strand ropes for new climbers. For production work, more friction means more work to move the hitch, so a lot of production climbers who provide their own equipment prefer 16 strand or more sophisticated ropes. But I notice most of the commercial outfits around here (where the "Boss" buys the equipment, not the climber) Arbor-Plex is still the most commonly used rope.

If you decide to sell your 1/2" I'D on E-bay, let me know. I'll bid. I do not want another STOP, but I'll use the one I have again WHEN I get the RIGHT ROPE for it.

 

[Tree Machine]

I think you'll like the Velocity. The diameter is more compatible with the devices and it is firm, round and doesn't squash and flatten.

 

[masiman]

Barry, I really like the Arbor-Plex for Blakes Hitch climbing and for the Martin Hitch I use most of the time now. I think it is ideal for starting out on. It's safe, and it's comparitively cheap of course, so you can get into the game for less money up front. Besides that I like the friction coefficient. It's easier to grasp for climbing and, maybe because it "Square's Off" a little, it provides more friction in a friction hitch. I think that makes it a little safer than the 16 strand ropes for new climbers. For production work, more friction means more work to move the hitch, so a lot of production climbers who provide their own equipment prefer 16 strand or more sophisticated ropes. But I notice most of the commercial outfits around here (where the "Boss" buys the equipment, not the climber) Arbor-Plex is still the most commonly used rope.

I just picked up an Arbor-Plex the other day from Sherrills. I found it to be too slick. So slick in fact that I could not get a hitch to bind on rope (blakes or prussik). This was an arbor-plex to arbor-plex setup. I was testing it out as a safety line in a non-split tail system. I thought maybe after it broke in it might start to grab, I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime I ordered a True Blue. Should be here any day. Bailey's has the Arbor-Plex on sale, $59 for 120', $69 for 150'. Can't beat that.

 

[gasman]

I just picked up an Arbor-Plex the other day from Sherrills. I found it to be too slick. So slick in fact that I could not get a hitch to bind on rope (blakes or prussik). This was an arbor-plex to arbor-plex setup. I was testing it out as a safety line in a non-split tail system. I thought maybe after it broke in it might start to grab, I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime I ordered a True Blue. Should be here any day. Bailey's has the Arbor-Plex on sale, $59 for 120', $69 for 150'. Can't beat that.

My arbor master was as slick as snot when I got it. It is made with a waxcoating that wears away. I dragged it around the back yard awhile and then it was much better for knot tying. Seems counter intuitinve to abuse rope, but there it is.

 

[SRT-Tech]

best way to break in arbor plex is to wash it in LUKE warm water, and scrub the rope with a bristle nail brush. This removs all the coating left over from the manufacturing process, and you get a nice grippy rope.

 

[masiman]

I'll try the washing and brushing suggestion first. Is it okay to do in the washing machine (without detergent I assume)?

 

[SRT-Tech]

if you "must" use a washing machine......use a FRONT LOADER only....the paddles in a top loader can sometimes catch the rope and abrade it. Diasy chain the rope and put into a mesh sack, on the gentle/cold cycle.

I personally wash my ropes by hand, in the bathtub (yes i'm single - no wife or GF to nag me:biggrinbounce2 using LifeLine rope cleaner or a VERY mild shampoo like ivory for babies.

 

[masiman]

if you "must" use a washing machine......use a FRONT LOADER only....the paddles in a top loader can sometimes catch the rope and abrade it. Diasy chain the rope and put into a mesh sack, on the gentle/cold cycle.

I personally wash my ropes by hand, in the bathtub (yes i'm single - no wife or GF to nag me:biggrinbounce2 using LifeLine rope cleaner or a VERY mild shampoo like ivory for babies.

I have 4 kids under 8, so mild shampoo is in ample supply here. I'll just tell her I'm cleaning the kids tub and sneak the rope in there. She'll think I'm the best husband

 

[Barry Stumps]

$195.95
D20LG
The I'D is primarily a particularly efficient and user-friendly descender. To descend simply pull on the handle while keeping hold of the rope, controlling the running of the rope by varying the grip on the free end. As soon as the handle is released, it locks. The large version is NFPA G rated to 1983-2006.

Specs:
- Rope diameter: 11.5-13 mm
- Weight: 530 g
- Construction: Anodized aluminum and stainless steel. Handle is made from nylon reinforced with glass fibers.
- Individually tested.
- Standards: CE EN 341 class A, NFPA G

This is the piece that i bought. I seen some statements that the 1/2 inch rope was too big but this shows that it takes the up to 13 mill and and 1/2 is 12.7. This is probally why it cost so much more. The sampson 12 strand rope i have is slick but the knots works fine but then again I'm new at this so i don'know what to compare it to. I guess i should learn how to use it. Does anyone one know of a good book that i can by for tree trimming. I get allot of calls for this but refer them to someone else. I would like to learn though. Thanks

 

[Tree Machine]

$195.95
D20LG
The I'D is primarily a particularly efficient and user-friendly descender. To descend simply pull on the handle while keeping hold of the rope, controlling the running of the rope by varying the grip on the free end. As soon as the handle is released, it locks. The large version is NFPA G rated to 1983-2006.

Specs:
- Rope diameter: 11.5-13 mm
- Weight: 530 g
- Construction: Anodized aluminum and stainless steel. Handle is made from nylon reinforced with glass fibers.
- Individually tested.
- Standards: CE EN 341 class A, NFPA G

Weighs over a pound, costs 200 bucks, doesn't accept dual lines and takes two hands to work.

That knocks it out for me. However, it IS a good device. I think you'll find it serves you better if you climb single rope technique. Use a backed-up ascender for the trip up, switch over to the I'd and you should feel very secure.

They say you should use the handle with one hand and your other as a belay hand, but actually, that's just for when you're free-hanging or on rappell. If you're limb walking or just moving about the canopy with only part of your weight on the rope you should be able to just work the handle with one hand and keep your other hand free.

 

[Fireaxman]

Sherrill has the large ID for $170. I see it as cheap as $165 in "another" catalog, but since that vendor doesn't support Arboristsite I wont mention them; but Sherrill has a price guarentee, so my bet is they will sell it to me for $165. Think I'll try them on it.

I went back to the Figure 8 for my work yesterday and backed it up by moving my Martin hitch to the right side D ring on my Buckingham Traverse. That worked surprisingly well most of the day, but on one occasion the Martin got hung up in a smear of pine sap and I had to re-tie it to get it loose. I had been using 4 wraps above the hitch on the Martin. I finished the day using 3 wraps above the hitch and did not have any further problems, in spite of increasing pine tar on the Arbor-Plex.

Spring, pretty good rains, trees are getting re-rooted after Katrina; sap is flowing like blood from an arterial wound on these loblollies this year.

Barry, if you could some how find a way to spend a day with an experienced climber familiar with modern equipment he could put you years ahead on your climbing skills. I was started by an "Old School" climber, and I've been pretty slow learning the new techniques off the web. Still, by the patience of people like Tree Machine, Tom, Spydie, Treeseer, and others on this site my production and safety are steadily improving. Thanks guys.

 

[Barry Stumps]

Fire, I sub contracted an experienced climber for a couple of trim jobs today and he is going to start trimming for me. He said he would show me the ropes of the trade so things should get much more clearer with the hands on. I kind of got used to the Blakes hitch now so i probally will sell the large ID. I paid $170 brand new off Ebay and it is still un used so i guess i would take $150 for it. It goes for $200 at stores if anyone wants to buy it. If not i will just repost it back on Ebay. I have learned allot of things on this site and appreciate all the advice received.

 

[Fireaxman]

Are you SURE you want to sell it? Dont know about you, but for me tree stuff is for buyin' , not sellin. If you ever get the opportunity to wreck a tall pine a "Bail Out" line makes a good secondary tie in, takes some stress off your flip line (waist / back) and puts it in your legs or butt strap, and keeps you tied in close to the tree for the "Ride" if the top swings enough to throw your spurs out. Not to mention providing a fast ride down if you get cut.

I have tried DRT for this, but the doubled rope and friction hitch are twice as much to fool with, and they dont let me snug up to the tree as tight. A single rope and a descent device lets me snug up to the tree quick, tight, and easy and then work it down easily as I work the spar down, only one rope to fool with.

The guy who wrote the piece in the web site Tom recomended to us was pretty non-committal on the I'D, but it has a good feature that he recomends in his piece on backing up your descent - the "Panic" feature in that it stops you if you instinctively grab it too tightly in a fall (unlike the friction hitches, e.g. Blakes, wich just accelerate your descent the harder you grab them). He also said he has not fully tested it.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/RappelDevices.shtml

Looks like Petzl provides pretty good diagrams and instructions on how to use it at:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=205&Activite=10

look for “Technical Notice” on the left hand side and then “I’D Specific Notice”.

I have ordered one. I'll try to remember to post again here after I've had a chance to check it out.