Douglas fir

[chanteoiseaux]

Hey everyone.
Long time lurker here,been meaning to join up for a good while and finally got around to it.

Im an englishman living in rural mountainous France off grid on a 55 âcre Douglas fir plantation. Was planted in 2005 and is a real beautiful plantation.
Have maybe 10 acres of larch and à few âcre of cedar too.
On top of that I have another 35 acres of old beech,oak,chestnut and Hazel .

My questions are for the Douglas firs.
I have debranched the whole plantation up to three mètres (my terminology is probably not correct as im more familiar with french words when it comes to tree work).
I have been pulling out best trees, and some birch and willow where nécessary to go for wood chip and granules but it's hard to get a straight answer here on what to do with the Douglas firs.
I think its time to do our first thinning. The smallest of the trees are about 8inch diameter at chest height.
But I need advice about what would be best to do with the logs.
I get very conflicting advice from people here. Everyone gets big machinery in but for me who works in the forest I dont want to go that route. I have the tools and sawmills are close by.

Do these size Douglas firs have value if I do first thinning myself and take them to Sawmill myself?
At what size do Douglas firs become commercially valuable and what at this size are they typically used for?

Thanks, I look forward to getting involved on here and sharing idées and questions.

 

[chanteoiseaux]

Cant find how to édit. It should have said been Pauline out bent trees not best trees

 

[northmanlogging]

if you've been trimming the lower branches regularly your bottom/butt logs will be of decent value, when thinning you're not going to see much in the way of profit, as doug fir really doesn't shine until you get in the 20" DBH range, however if you thin then the remaining timber will get bigger faster.
As for commercial viablility, that will entirely depend on your local markets, here Doug Fir and Cedar are king, but they are both native to here, I couldn't say what markets are like in France, but if its anything like scandinavia/england/ireland then spruce seems to be what everyone is after (why I'll never know, as Fir is a much better wood) maybe its cause Spruce grows faster?

Anyway, you'll have to find a mill on your side of the planet, pay attention to their specifications, bucking lengths and small end diameters.
Temper that with what you have to move the logs and transport to the mill. For example, here everyone like 40' logs because the trucks get more weight on them, however, bucking a little shorter like 32' or 30' you get better scale, not to mention lighter individual logs that are easier to handle with small equipment. .

For referance sake, smallest millable logs round here are typically 5" on the small end shortest they accept are 12' with 16' being more common for shorts, the pulp mills take down to 2" dia and 12' lengths YOUR MARKETS WILL BE DIFFERENT.

You will find that thinning your stand is going to be a whole lot of manual labor, and it takes a whole lot of little logs to make a load, hundreds of trees potentially. Which is why folks are urging you to use mechanical harvesters, as they can process several loads a day not even trying, where it will likely take one person a week or more to work up a single load. I'm telling you this not to dissuade you but more so you don't have any surprises, I do everything more or less by hand, I try to avoid the smaller thinning jobs just because its hard to make money hand limbing and bucking pulp wood.

Otherwise I'm rooting for you.

 

[northmanlogging]

Also, make sure to check if they want trim/snipe on log lengths, for instance a 32' log is actually bucked at 32'10" or 33' if you're lazy like me, if they do require this extra trim and you don't leave it for them, then they will either cull the entire log, or scale it at the next shortest acceptable length. which if you bucked em at say exactly 36', that next acceptable length will be for a 32' log and you just threw away 2" of diameter and 4' of length.

I run into this all the time as I run self loading log truck, and the part time loggers cut em exactly to length, then call me and whine that they load wasn't worth as much as they think it should of been... not to mention when they say I cut em at X length I stretch the trailer out to fit, only to then see the logs slipping between the bunks... (really ******* annoying FYI)

 

[chanteoiseaux]

Thanks for your reply northman.
It's useful information. Been reading on here for à while and I appreciate you know what your talking about.
I got a quote to trim my plantation (take off the branches) up to 3 mètres 2 years ago of 20,000 euros . Someone from the government who goes to see land owners and offer them grants. I told him I would do it myself and he said It was impossible on my own. I got it all done last autumn/winter. Enjoyed doing it too . 20,000 trees give or take.

Problem here It's very difficult getting à straight answer out of anyone about anything.
I dont need to earn alot of money. I rebuilt an old stone ruin and made it one hundred percent off grid in the past five years so my time has been spent doing that , working the hardwood Forest for firewood and timber from an âcre of large 50 year Douglas fir for the house. My wife lost her Job when covid hit and is now working in a village bar for peanuts and since the house is fully functional I've got to get some money coming in from my land.
I cut and split by hand about one hundred stères of firewood à year which helps but lately been really thinking about what to do.

Last week I decided to start pulling out all of the really bent Douglas fir and birch tree that are à hindrance to the Douglas firs. I managed 50 reasonably size trees stacked up ready for the guys to come and pick up to go for pellets. I réalise this won't pay à whole lot but I figure It's better than it going to waste and it needs to come out anyway.
I sell à bit of woodchip every now and then too.

On the other pièce of land I have alot of nice straight beech and oak that im going to work on this winter. I just can't décide if I should sell them as logs or have them cut for me.
I have an area of enormous beech trees that I didnt réalise were mine until last week so I'll be doing alot of firewood to sell in a year or two with those.
You are right that I am limited in which size 9f log I can move with my équipement. I'm limited to 4 mètres which I réalise is a shame. I have some huge beautiful Douglas firs but they are hard to access and honestly those big Douglas firs are about the only thing that I dont really like cutting so I need to think about those. Alot of the Douglas there are way too knotty but I did find about 50 real beauties.

As for my plantation I'll pull out all the crap thus winter and then décide on what to do about first thinning out. I'll get some measurements after what you have explained and am sure I'll have some further questions .


I never planned on getting into wood. All came about by chance really. Thrown into and fell in love with it and really dedicated my time into this off grid project and taking care of the forest. Now I figure It's time to try and make it put food on our plates. If I can earn à modest wage from what I love to do whilst watching the plantation grow then I'll be a happy man .

I'll get some photos up some time but first I need à New phone. I ran mine over with the trailer the other day loaded with chestnut and the one before that the donkeys trod on.

Thanks northman. If you have any suggestions on way to go for me I'm really eager to learn.

Some nice trees here just need some pointers in what to concentrate on. Do I focus on the oak and beech for lumber, go crazy on firewood with the enormous beech or start thinking out the Douglas?

What would you do if you don't mind me asking?

 

[chanteoiseaux]

Funny what you say about snipe,log length too. I always leave à few extra inches on a log. Because I'm Lazy too I guess.

 

[chanteoiseaux]

Funny what you say about snipe,log length too. I always leave à few extra inches on a log. Because I'm Lazy too I guess.

Sorry for the multi reply but if I did get the guys in with the big harvesters to thin out would the lumber from à few thousand trees typically even cover the Costs? If so I would probably considèr letting them do most of it and do a stand of about 5 acres myself as it's closer to the house and where I keep my donkeys and I would like to do a heavier thin on that part in order to work on other projects and free up some space

 

[northmanlogging]

Sorry for the multi reply but if I did get the guys in with the big harvesters to thin out would the lumber from à few thousand trees typically even cover the Costs? If so I would probably considèr letting them do most of it and do a stand of about 5 acres myself as it's closer to the house and where I keep my donkeys and I would like to do a heavier thin on that part in order to work on other projects and free up some space

you would need to contact the thinning operators, it absolutely all depends on local markets, out here what we call a chip-n-saw thin would likely be a break even project, with the land owner maybe, big maybe getting a check, though if there is enough of the 8" or bigger trees you should get something out of it, especially since the project sounds big enough to keep a crew busy for a few days.

 

[chanteoiseaux]

Also, make sure to check if they want trim/snipe on log lengths, for instance a 32' log is actually bucked at 32'10" or 33' if you're lazy like me, if they do require this extra trim and you don't leave it for them, then they will either cull the entire log, or scale it at the next shortest acceptable length. which if you bucked em at say exactly 36', that next acceptable length will be for a 32' log and you just threw away 2" of diameter and 4' of length.

I run into this all the time as I run self loading log truck, and the part time loggers cut em exactly to length, then call me and whine that they load wasn't worth as much as they think it should of been... not to mention when they say I cut em at X length I stretch the trailer out to fit, only to then see the logs slipping between the bunks... (really ******* annoying FYI)

you would need to contact the thinning operators, it absolutely all depends on local markets, out here what we call a chip-n-saw thin would likely be a break even project, with the land owner maybe, big maybe getting a check, though if there is enough of the 8" or bigger trees you should get something out of it, especially since the project sounds big enough to keep a crew busy for a few days.

That's what I thought. I know of s decent firm that I can trust whom I shall make some enquiries to.
With work unbelievably scarce round here I Need to decide whether it's worth spending a year earning a small income doing it bit by bit myself.
I'm interested to see what I'll get for the pile of logs I dragged out for the granule guys when they come. There's plenty of those to come out and it's quick work with easy access and needs doing so perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised. That would be money for old rope whatever it is. The birch Is my least favorite wood to split so happy to not keep that for firewood , the willow I coppice for regrowth for the donkeys so plenty of that to come out which I can't do much else with and those really bent Douglas firs are good for nothing I can think of.

Where are you if you don't mind me asking northman? Thanks for your time

 

[northmanlogging]

That's what I thought. I know of s decent firm that I can trust whom I shall make some enquiries to.
With work unbelievably scarce round here I Need to decide whether it's worth spending a year earning a small income doing it bit by bit myself.
I'm interested to see what I'll get for the pile of logs I dragged out for the granule guys when they come. There's plenty of those to come out and it's quick work with easy access and needs doing so perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised. That would be money for old rope whatever it is. The birch Is my least favorite wood to split so happy to not keep that for firewood , the willow I coppice for regrowth for the donkeys so plenty of that to come out which I can't do much else with and those really bent Douglas firs are good for nothing I can think of.

Where are you if you don't mind me asking northman? Thanks for your time

west coast of USA, bout 80 mi south of the Canadian border, spitting distance to where Grunge Rock was born.

 

[chanteoiseaux]

west coast of USA, bout 80 mi south of the Canadian border, spitting distance to where Grunge Rock was born.

Amazing. Where I've always wanted to go.
Wanted to visit the great northern hotel from twin peaks for my honeymoon but it never happened.
I was a touring drummer in my previous life. Before the wood bug bit me. Toured alot in the states but never west coast.
Alice in chains, mother love bone and mad season and pearl jam will be in my head phones today in honor of you northman.

As they say in these parts bouche bien monsieur!

 

[northmanlogging]

Amazing. Where I've always wanted to go.
Wanted to visit the great northern hotel from twin peaks for my honeymoon but it never happened.
I was a touring drummer in my previous life. Before the wood bug bit me. Toured alot in the states but never west coast.
Alice in chains, mother love bone and mad season and pearl jam will be in my head phones today in honor of you northman.

As they say in these parts bouche bien monsieur!

I'm about 40 mi north of were they filmed twin peaks.
Never toured with any of my bands, but have played all the great Seattle Dive bars, the Rainbow, Central Tavern, Zachs 5th ave, etc. I missed the Grunge boat by about a year, But did get a chance to open for the Super Suckers, Metal Church, and a few others, had a drummer that the Foo Fighters opened for on their first show... probably the one and only time they opened for anybody lol.

 

[andy]

Thanks for your reply northman.
It's useful information. Been reading on here for à while and I appreciate you know what your talking about.
I got a quote to trim my plantation (take off the branches) up to 3 mètres 2 years ago of 20,000 euros . Someone from the government who goes to see land owners and offer them grants. I told him I would do it myself and he said It was impossible on my own. I got it all done last autumn/winter. Enjoyed doing it too . 20,000 trees give or take.

Problem here It's very difficult getting à straight answer out of anyone about anything.
I dont need to earn alot of money. I rebuilt an old stone ruin and made it one hundred percent off grid in the past five years so my time has been spent doing that , working the hardwood Forest for firewood and timber from an âcre of large 50 year Douglas fir for the house. My wife lost her Job when covid hit and is now working in a village bar for peanuts and since the house is fully functional I've got to get some money coming in from my land.
I cut and split by hand about one hundred stères of firewood à year which helps but lately been really thinking about what to do.

Last week I decided to start pulling out all of the really bent Douglas fir and birch tree that are à hindrance to the Douglas firs. I managed 50 reasonably size trees stacked up ready for the guys to come and pick up to go for pellets. I réalise this won't pay à whole lot but I figure It's better than it going to waste and it needs to come out anyway.
I sell à bit of woodchip every now and then too.

On the other pièce of land I have alot of nice straight beech and oak that im going to work on this winter. I just can't décide if I should sell them as logs or have them cut for me.
I have an area of enormous beech trees that I didnt réalise were mine until last week so I'll be doing alot of firewood to sell in a year or two with those.
You are right that I am limited in which size 9f log I can move with my équipement. I'm limited to 4 mètres which I réalise is a shame. I have some huge beautiful Douglas firs but they are hard to access and honestly those big Douglas firs are about the only thing that I dont really like cutting so I need to think about those. Alot of the Douglas there are way too knotty but I did find about 50 real beauties.

As for my plantation I'll pull out all the crap thus winter and then décide on what to do about first thinning out. I'll get some measurements after what you have explained and am sure I'll have some further questions .


I never planned on getting into wood. All came about by chance really. Thrown into and fell in love with it and really dedicated my time into this off grid project and taking care of the forest. Now I figure It's time to try and make it put food on our plates. If I can earn à modest wage from what I love to do whilst watching the plantation grow then I'll be a happy man .

I'll get some photos up some time but first I need à New phone. I ran mine over with the trailer the other day loaded with chestnut and the one before that the donkeys trod on.

Thanks northman. If you have any suggestions on way to go for me I'm really eager to learn.

Some nice trees here just need some pointers in what to concentrate on. Do I focus on the oak and beech for lumber, go crazy on firewood with the enormous beech or start thinking out the Douglas?

What would you do if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, please post some Pics.

 

[slowp]

Another thing to consider is, are your trees limblocked? Doug-fir and other conifers can be a pain to get on the ground for the first commercial thin. They are not large so often don't have the height and weight to power through the limbs of the leave trees. They get hung up--stuck in another tree and you'll need to have a piece of equipment to pull them down, or use some other method. This is the complaint of some very talented timber fallers, south of Northman but in prime Doug-fir country. The experts can do fairly well, but as a forester, I would still have to go in and OK extra trees to take out in order to get a few hung up trees on the ground. It's a safety thing. The logging crew has to be able to work without worrying about a hung up tree coming down on them.

Processors or feller bunchers have no problem getting these trees on the ground. But, they are expensive and you'll also have to design your harvest so the machinery can maneuver around in your trees. That can mean having to take out more trees than planned, but that's also true about using any piece of equipment, except maybe a horse, in the woods.

This is my favorite thinning picture. The fallers were very good. The trees were bigger than yours--these averaged about 16 inches diameter.


These guys are rigging up so the skyline can be pulled through that corridor (pathway) cut out to pull logs out of this thinning unit. Can't recall if it was uphill or downhill yarded, but they use a small line called haywire to pull the bigger line through. Just an illustration of cutting out trees to get equipment through.